Wagner

Four Cycles ... of the Ring?

I am no admirer of Wagner either the man or the music, but surely four Cycles would indicate that you could teach most of us here more than we might possibly be able to suggest sensibly to you!

I actually had parts from two Cycles plus a complete one [Furtwangler in Rome in 1953] with Seigfreid from Boehm in Bayreuth, and Walkyie with Furtwangler in La Scala.

It is porbably fair to add that I no longer have any Wagner recording, except for a performance of the Mastersinger Overture with Sir Thomas Beecham on an EMI disc of overtures from many composers.

It does seem that Wagner does not have a very large following here, so perhaps you could start a new trend!

ATB from George

When I was younger I thought that Wagner was a most wonderful composer and did not understand Mozart. Now I am older I love Mozart and hrdly ever listen to Wagner.

Was it just a phase I grew through?

Mind you, I have my fingers crossed for tickets to see Tristan at Glyndebourne this summer, the DVD of which I am more than happy to recommend.

Are you aware of the Wagner society and their library of recordings?

"www.wagnersociety.org/Library.HTM"

I can't claim to be a collector myself as I'd rather go to one of the operas than buy another recording, having said that I have 3 cycles, 2 hollanders, 2 Tristans, 3 Parsifals, 2 Meistersingers, a Lohengrin, a Tannhauser plus various bits and pieces.

Another Wagner fan 4 Ring Cycles on CD ,2 on DVD.

The man was a genius - shame he and his family were some of the nastiest people ever to populate the music world.

quote:

Originally posted by FlyMe:
When I was younger I thought that Wagner was a most wonderful composer and did not understand Mozart. Now I am older I love Mozart and hrdly ever listen to Wagner.

Was it just a phase I grew through?

Interesting. My experience was the inverse of yours. I have grown fond of his music after having grown up on a staple diet of Mozart, Beethoven, Bach and Brahms during my youth, with Wagner always being an outsider to whom I had little exposure. That was until I bought the Karajan 1952 Bayreuth Tristan a few years ago. It was an enchanting experience, but, as you say, it may just be a phase.

quote:

Originally posted by yeti42:
Are you aware of the Wagner society and their library of recordings?

"www.wagnersociety.org/Library.HTM"

Yes. Amusingly, when I bought my first Wagner recording on ebay, the seller happened to be the recording critic of the Wagner Society, who subsequently stayed in touch with me and gave me great advice on which recordings to go for with my subsequent ebay purchases. He has 115 recordings of the Walkuere alone... I was, however, not particularly interested in the society as such, and only held membership for one year, during which I received their quirky Wagner News.

quote:

Originally posted by Sister E.:
The man was a genius - shame he and his family were some of the nastiest people ever to populate the music world.

The politics which surround Wagner are of little or no concern to me. I am solely interested in his music. However, that said, I can take his fervent German nationalism, particularly in Sachs' finale of the Meistersinger, with a pinch of salt, for he lived and composed during the nineteenth century, which was the period of the budding nation state, and nationalist sentiment was an entrenched aspect of the culture of this era. As concerns the Nazi's love for his music, this does not make Wagner a national socialist. To argue this is a reductio ad absurdum. Yet, as mentioned, his music is an emotive experience, and the associated politics and anecdotes are largely irrelevant to me.

115 recordings of Walkuere - that's collection indeed! Thought I was pushing it with three!

Dear Juergen,

If only Wagner had stuck to writing music, then his views on the Jews - uttered a long time before the Nazi's made abominable policy based on similar attitudes - would hardly be of note, but he was quite clear and so it is very difficult for some to ignore the completely odious views he held on the subject.

For myself, I tried and completely failed in an attempt to divorce his music from his racial attitudes. In fact, after a while, these attitudes seemed to me to suffuse every aspect of his music except perhaps the Seigfreid Idle, which is the only purely instrumental music of his I know - barring bleeding chunks given on the orchestra alone.

Perhaps if he had written one more opera, and not written the works in prose that he did, we would all be less aware of his personal character, and, in ignorance of it, be much happier with his musical output ...

ATB from George

quote:

Originally posted by GFFJ:
If only Wagner had stuck to writing music, then his views on the Jews - uttered a long time before the Nazi's made abominable policy based on similar attitudes - would hardly be of note, but he was quite clear and so it is very difficult for some to ignore the completely odious views he held on the subject.

For myself, I tried and completely failed in an attempt to divorce his music from his racial attitudes. In fact, after a while, these attitudes seemed to me to suffuse every aspect of his music except perhaps the Seigfreid Idle, which is the only purely instrumental music of his I know - barring bleeding chunks given on the orchestra alone.

Perhaps if he had written one more opera, and not written the works in prose that he did, we would all be less aware of his personal character, and, in ignorance of it, be much happier with his musical output ...

ATB from George

Dear George,

It would be pointless to deny, excuse or attempt to mitigate his anti-semitism. Indeed, it would not only be unpalatable to do so, but heinous. Yet, Wagner's anti-semitism, though explicit in his political writings, is nowhere to be found explicitly in his libretti. It is possible to read anti-semitism into some of the characters of his operas, but to do so would be a matter of interpretation, not of empirical demonstration. I respect every individual who cannot dissociate Wagner's anti-semitism from his music, but I maintain that it is not impossible to do so. Proof of this are the scores of conductors who have embraced his work for the sake of his genius alone.

Best wishes

Dear Juergen,

I am sorry. I did write a long reply, and I lost my temper, so decided simply to admit that I can't actually reply beyond what already I have.

I hasten to add that my temper was lost with Wagner, not you!

I suppose it runs at a very deep level for me, and there is no reason for me to expect that it would do so for everyone.

Best wishes from George

For anyone who can stomach it I see Covent Garden are staging Lohengrin around the beginning of May.

quote:

Originally posted by GFFJ:
Dear Juergen,

I am sorry. I did write a long reply, and I lost my temper, so decided simply to admit that I can't actually reply beyond what already I have.

I hasten to add that my temper was lost with Wagner, not you!

I suppose it runs at a very deep level for me, and there is no reason for me to expect that it would do so for everyone.

Best wishes from George

Dear George,

There is certainly no need to apologize and I did not feel offended, but I find your sensitivity refreshing and it is sincerely appreciated. Indeed, it was the ambiguity of my post which denied a necessary link between Wagner and national socialism, which provoked your justified rebuttal. I say the uncertainty of my post, as Wagner need not have been a nazi, but he was certainly an anti-semite when one considers his political and cultural writings. Yet, Schumann and, arguably, Shakespeare were anti-semites also. However, I believe that the point I was trying to make, but have failed to convey clearly, is that the fruits of their labours considered for their own merit have survived their ghastly personal opinions.

Yet, bearing in mind the atrocities committed in the name of anti-semitism, a thoughtful reminder of Wagner's distasteful personal opinions is never inappropriate. Thus, there is no need to apologize.

I had no intention though of turning this into a political topic. As a consequence, this will be my last post relating to the politics associated with Wagner. I merely want to converse on his music, which I consider to be worthy of redemption.

quote:

Originally posted by munch:
If Wagner was around in the late 60's early 70's he would of done some great rock music.
I always think of him as a classical rocker.
Munch

Yes, the 'prog rock' of its day, or perhaps heavy metal...

Regardless of the type of modern music one would ascribe to him, his innovativeness can be illustrated alone by considering that Tristan and Isolde was considered initially to be unperformable by orchestra musicians and singers alike. The first attempt to stage the opera was abandoned after 54 rehearsals. The second attempt after 72 rehearsals... I am glad that they grasped it in the end.

quote:

Originally posted by GFFJ:
Dear Juergen,

If only Wagner had stuck to writing music, then his views on the Jews - uttered a long time before the Nazi's made abominable policy based on similar attitudes - would hardly be of note, but he was quite clear and so it is very difficult for some to ignore the completely odious views he held on the subject.

For myself, I tried and completely failed in an attempt to divorce his music from his racial attitudes. In fact, after a while, these attitudes seemed to me to suffuse every aspect of his music except perhaps the Seigfreid Idle, which is the only purely instrumental music of his I know - barring bleeding chunks given on the orchestra alone.

Perhaps if he had written one more opera, and not written the works in prose that he did, we would all be less aware of his personal character, and, in ignorance of it, be much happier with his musical output ...

ATB from George

George,

There are FAR more overt anti-semitic references in Shakespeare and Dickens than there are in Wagner's operas. Perhaps Mime could be construed as a Jewish character in "Siegfried" but it's not clear. Brahms was happy sacking Jewish members of his orchestra and as for Chopin .... Wagner in fact was a contadiction of sorts,having a good relationship with the Jewish community in Bayreuth and asking a Jew, Hermann Levi to conduct the first performance of Parsifal.

Dear Juergen,

I have found a recording of the Seigfreid Iddle played by Bruno Walter and the VPO [HMV, 1936]. I used to have this on 78s in the early eighties, and it is pure gentle joy! I had forgotten it. Also on the disc is Toscanini leading the Prelude and Good Friday Music from Parsifal, with the BBC SO also from the thirties. That has a grave beauty which is very special. One would hardly expect such an approach from Toscanini if one only knew his recordings of Beethoven ...

I cannot think anything will stop me enjoying it now!

ATB from George

Just for information, the music mentioned is the Siegfried Idyll, not the similar-sounding "Iddle". But I loved the (presumably mistaken, who knows?) Siegfried Idle.

Wagner's relationships with Jews were sometimes friendly and social. A Scandinavian composer friend of Wagner married a Jewess, and Wagner attended the wedding.

We are mistaken on two counts when we condemn Wagner. The time in which he lived was one when anti-Semitism was the norm. And just because Hitler liked his music some 50 years after Wagner's death seems to me to be quite irrelevant. Hitler was also rather fond of Beethoven.

The Nazis were not even consistent. They banned the music of the "Jewish" Mendelssohn, though in fact he was a Christian, the son of a convert from Judaism.

We ought to move on from the political and religious differences of other times. None of us on this Forum was there, even me, old as I am.

Regards,
Ken

Ken spelling was never my strong point! I meant the Seigfreid Idyll! ... I think ...

Wagner's relationships with Jews were sometimes friendly and social. A Scandinavian composer friend of Wagner married a Jewess, and Wagner attended the wedding.

We are mistaken on two counts when we condemn Wagner. The time in which he lived was one when anti-Semitism was the norm. And just because Hitler liked his music some 50 years after Wagner's death seems to me to be quite irrelevant. Hitler was also rather fond of Beethoven.

The Nazis were not even consistent. They banned the music of the "Jewish" Mendelssohn, though in fact he was a Christian, the son of a convert from Judaism.

We ought to move on from the political and religious differences of other times. None of us on this Forum was there, even me, old as I am.

Regards,
Ken[/QUOTE]

I agree, Ken. Wagner was a vile anti-semite but he was not the only one and the predominantly Jewish orchestra of the Palestine of the 1930's was quite happy to play his music. It was the Holocaust and Hitler's obsession with Wagner that changed the world's perception of the composer. Wagner was married of course to Cosima,another anti-semite whose father was equally rabid, a talented composer by the name of Franz Lizst!

quote:

Originally posted by GFFJ:
Dear Juergen,

I have found a recording of the Seigfreid Iddle played by Bruno Walter and the VPO [HMV, 1936]. I used to have this on 78s in the early eighties, and it is pure gentle joy! I had forgotten it. Also on the disc is Toscanini leading the Prelude and Good Friday Music from Parsifal, with the BBC SO also from the thirties. That has a grave beauty which is very special. One would hardly expect such an approach from Toscanini if one only knew his recordings of Beethoven ...

I cannot think anything will stop me enjoying it now!

ATB from George

Hello George,

Was too busy putting together my hifi, and forgot about this thread...

I don't have a single Walter recording but will keep an eye out for them.

Regarding Toscanini, he was great Wagnerian. I do not have a recording of his with the BBC SO. However, I have a wonderful recording of the Prelude to Act I of Parsifal and the Karfreitagszauber (Good Friday Spell) which he performed with the NBC SO in 1949. This has to be one of the finest renditions of the orchestral passages of Parsifal I have heard, perhaps the finest (when it comes to complete Parsifal recordings, then Knappertsbusch is probably the champion). I also have several other recordings of Toscanini with the NBC SO on various discs ranging from 1946 to 1952, all of which are spellbinding (Preludes to Acts 1 and 3 of Lohengrin, both 1951; Preludes to Acts 1 and 3 of Meistersinger, 1946 and 1951 respectively; Prelude to Act 1 and the Bacchanale of Tannhaeuser, both 1952). His collaboration with the NBC SO demonstrated that a great conductor can extract pure gold from an orchestra which would not have been considered necessarily one of the world's finest. Sadly, I only have one complete opera under Toscanini, namely his 1937 Meistersinger, which is a stunning recording with a great cast and phantastic conducting. Interestingly, his approach to the Meistersinger, particularly his tempo, is quite different to that of more modern versions.

Best wishes

Dear Juergen,

Those BBC SO recordings with Toscanini were variously studio or live recordings done in the thirties in the [now demolished] Queens Hall in Portland Place, London.

HMV made the recordings which of course were syndicated to Victor in the US as at the time the two companies were sister companies in their respective territories.

To find them now you would need to look out for EMI or Testament releases, which are transfered [via new vinyl pressings] from the metal master parts held in the UK.

I would think that they may be available from the US branch of EMI from time to time.

The last issue in the UK was some years ago on a 10 CD set of great performances in a set called, I think, The Great Conductors. I only have the one disc, which is not in the original packaging, and was given me by an old friend who teaches Maths! He was not interested in the set, given him as a gift, and so broke it up among friends!

Sorry not to be able to give better details than that.

ATB from George

sorry for the side track, I was watching a documentary about WW2 and they'd banned all jazz as being too decadent. Yet Hermann Goering had great parties and had an incredible collection of it and played it frequently for his guests.

They also stated that they allowed in Count Bassie and Duke Ellington records because they couldn't conceive of either being black. LOL