The CDS-II agenda...
Posted by: Top Cat on 21 February 2002
Went to see (not hear) a CDS-II/XPS today. The reason I didn't hear it is that it was a flying visit, really to scope out a couple of things (availability, new price and to have a look at the thing) and I have to say that it's a bizarre looking beastie indeed. But then, it's the sound that counts, and if it's half as good as you lot claim then it's well worth checking out!
Anyway, to cut a long story short, I am planning to borrow said CDS-II/XPS and a CDX/XPS at some point in the next month or so (prior to April) and when the new tax year comes I might just indulge... 
A few of questions that perhaps someone could answer:
(1) What is the warranty/guarantee on the CDS-II/XPS (and also the CDX)?
(2) I am concerned about what I am led to believe happened in the case of the CDS, i.e. parts availability problems, leading to repairs requiring a complete update to the player. What are the weaknesses of the CDS-II in terms of build (i.e. what tends to go wrong if anything) and has Naim protected its customers from a similar thing happening to the CDS-II?*
(3) Is there any performance constraint on how close the XPS can be located to (a) the CDS-II and (b) other sensitive equipment, e.g. preamps? I would probably site the XPS above the CDS-II (on the lower tier of a wallshelf) and have the CDS-II sitting on the top of my 3-tier rack (below the shelf)
(4) Has anyone tried the CDS-II with the better Nordost interconnects, specifically SPM Reference? This is what I use and I am keen to get feedback on whether it's a synergistic mix or whether (like the Chord Anthem that I heard on Monday/Tuesday) it perhaps might not be the best thing to use? This is a v. important consideration.
(5) If I buy a CDS-II, do I get the connecting lead for attaching it to the XPS? What about a standard DIN:DIN interconnect - is this included too?
(6) Have any revisions occured to the CDS-II since launch that might make a new model (i.e. 2002) more desirable than an earlier model?
That'll do for now. Gotta do this right, as I am assured by my dealer that prices will rise by a few percent in April, which in the scheme of a six grand CD player is quite a lot of beer money!
Of course, if I can find a s/h CDX, or CDX/XPS, then I'll jump at that, so if anyone wants one I will pay a good rate for a decent one - contact me privately if you are looking to move up the ladder or across to another brand! This would, of course, enable me to phase my upgrade as the rest of you do...
Yours, bewildered by the magnitude of spending that amount on a CD player,
TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."
quote:
That's quite interesting. If it's how you hear things, then I don't think you're going to get very much good advice from this forum. The Sim Audio player is competent, but I'd rather have a CD3.5 and I KNOW everyone else here would agree if they had the chance to do a comparison.
Vuk, fair point. Then again, it's early days with the player, so I don't know how it will pan out as it warms up and so on. I was never impressed with the CD3.5, although the CDX was very enjoyable. I always found the CD3.5 to be a bit brash; fun, but lacking the refinement and nuance that I was after. That's not to say what I prefer the cd recorder I've been using as a stand-in, but I would expect more from an upgrade than a 3.5 would give. A CDX is a different proposition.
There's little to seperate the CDX and Simaudio in terms of PRaT, from what I can tell right now, but I'm not in any hurry to judge. After all, my initial impressions may be misleading, but having listened to a lot of cd players from Naim and others, I'd comfortably say that the Simaudio is not the dog I felt it was when I heard it last.
TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."
quote:
Mr LonorgonUnemployment in Swindon 1.8%. It's up to you.
Mr Parry,
It may come to that.
Regards,
Mr Lonorgan.
Sound: Good PRaT, very detailed, lean in the bass, but controlled. Slightly more etched in the treble, cleaner in the midrange than either the CDX or CDS-II/XPS.
Build: A1 - by far and away the best build quality I've yet come across in a cd player, not that the Naim is by any means bad.
The model I have is not the same one I borrowed once before. This one doesn't have an HDCD chipset, instead it apparently is permanently on 24/96. It does sound better than the other player I heard by some margin, although I'm not too sure about the sound of this player either.
In some regards, it is similar to the CDX and CDS-II/XPS, but in other areas it's very different sounding. In terms of construction, it is quite a similar approach to that of the CDS-II/XPS, and so I expected it to bear similar characteristics, but it isn't quite as clear cut as that.
As a player, it seems to be enigmatic. Clearly more detailed than the Naim players I've heard, but at the same time less sure of itself in the bass (obviously, from memory) - although this may be as much to do with warm-up with the Moon as the lack of finest detail on the CDS-II/XPS. It does Round Earth things perfectly, and seems to be very assured in its shaping of notes. On the other hand, it lacks the 'rock-like' solidity of the CDS-II which I liked. Drums aren't quite as convincing, although they are more clearly delineated and quite a way better than my stand-in source.
In character, it's closer to the CDX than to the CDS-II/XPS, without the 'fat noteism' which I mentioned before.
I've got this player until next week, and I'm hopefully going to be able to have a showdown with a CD3.5 after the weekend, just to settle the nagging doubt in my mind that Vuk might be right and my memory of the 3.5 is flawed. After all, if he's right and I'm wrong, I'll admit it as it would mean I could get a great player for a lot less. Hot favourite at the moment remains the CDX, however...
TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."
quote:
It does Round Earth things perfectly
All your descriptions are in 'Round Earth' terms. So why are you looking at Naim players?
Maybe you should consider one of those Sony SACD jobs and save a bunch of money?
Paul
Anything less is unnacceptable.
Sure, I could go buy something cheaper, but I have a system otherwise capable of the best of both worlds (FE and RE) so seek a secondary source capable of providing it.
Is that too much to ask?
TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."
Whether the difference is worth the asking price is subjective...
I'm way into strictly unjustifiable speculation here, but I think your system is probably fundamentally wrong.
IMO you need to try some whole new approaches. It seems to me that for less than the price of a CSD2 alone you can put together a fit and forget/no need to worry about the stands/the mains system/the cabling from (for example) Linn. An Ikemi/Kairn Pro/LK140/Katan combo comes to about 5k5, source first a 5 year warranty, remote control, locally made, plays music not hifi. Similar systems must be available from other manufacturers but I'm not familiar enough with the pricing and ranges*
Learn to be a non-tweaking music listening non-hifi-enthusiast. Make it at least 5 years before considering changing system, and then decide it's not worth while.
See you in 10 years....
*How about CDX/NAC102/NAP140 same or similar speakers. It's a bit cheeky suggesting Linn in a Naim forum, sorry.
Paul (It's over 6 years since I last wrote a cheque to a hifi dealer.....)
[This message was edited by Paul Ranson on THURSDAY 14 March 2002 at 14:58.]
quote:
I'm way into strictly unjustifiable speculation here, but I think your system is probably fundamentally wrong.
You're having a laugh, aren't you? I think you are way into strictly unjustifiable speculation in a serious way. Let's put it another way, I've never heard a system which came even close to the sound I get with vinyl in terms of musicality, and all I'm looking for is a cd source which can give me some of that involvement. Your statement is a troll, methinks, and unless you've heard a DNM-centered system for a reasonable amount of time, you are clearly dismissing what you don't know. DNM is nothing remotely like Linn, and if I even had the slightest inclination towards the Linn sound I'd have bought it ages back, as I like the styling, prices and concept. I've never heard a Linn system which did it for me, period.
TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."
TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."
Put it another way, if your system were fundamentally right finding a CD player wouldn't be any trouble at all and the right choice would be obvious without multiple weeks of home dem.
I'm using my personal heuristics here, I don't need to have lived with a DNM preamp for months to process what you say and how you say it. My only DNM experience was with a PSU for Naim preamps back in the early 1980's. Worse than using the power amp, IMO.
All IMHO of course.
quote:
I've never heard a Linn system which did it for me, period.
This kind of statement always confuses me. You may not like the presentation but I don't see how you can avoid the music. The same applies to Naim which has a different sound but still does the music. One adapts to 'sound', one doesn't adapt to missing music.
Paul
quote:
Originally posted by Paul Ranson:
Your system is fundamentally wrong because you're not happy with it.
I've been to TC's and heard his system and it would appear to me that he is quite happy with it, with the exception that he doesn't have a decent CD player as yet.
Giving John is considering dropping anything up to £6K on a CD player I think he's doing the right thing, demoing the various options and trying to decide if the differences between various players are worth the money.
Having said that in his position I'd have bought a used CDX and made sure I never, ever listened to any "better" players...
Regards
Steve
quote:
Your system is fundamentally wrong because you're not happy with it.
...is not the case. I am *delighted* with my system, it's just that there is a performance gulf between my TT and my stand-in cd source (which is a cd recorder, purchased so that when I did buy a decent cd player it wouldn't be obsolete).
Yes, I'm ecstatic with EVERYTHING about my system but know full well that the purchase of a cd player at this level (and cost) requires a lot of careful thought, system matching and allowing plenty of time to let components warm up and therefore do themselves justice.
In the context of my auditions, I'm in no hurry, but also want to go about this in the right way, by trying different cd players at all prices to get a feel for what they all do and don't do for me. Music is the key, and my initial feeling was that the CDX was almost spot-on, in terms of performance versus cost. The CDS-II/XPS, at much more money, I expected to really shine, but it wasn't really the sound I expected.
So where does any of this suggest I'm unhappy with my system? I've chosen what I have through a lot of hard work, careful thought, setup, a couple of dead-ends, a suicidal LP12 and so on. I am pretty much where I want to be with the vinyl (aside from some further tweaking to improve it even more, as my most recent setup was done without an accurate cart. guage), so all that remains is the CD source.
Getting the best out of one's kit takes time and effort, and that's why I'm here on this thread, trying to rationalise my findings with others who may have been down a similar path before.
Do you see where I'm coming from now? Can you understand that my upgrade is not borne of necessity, but by choice?
TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."
I just want to take issue with the argument, some posts back, that really, in the big picture, a CDSII is not that expensive, so much so, that TC is being pressured to A) ignore his qualms and get the CDSII forthwith and get used to it, and B) get a 52 pre-amp - otherwise he'll never hear what a CDSII is good for.
After all, any wage earner can afford a NAP 52, as Paul Ranson said:
"People on average wages could easily afford a 52 if they wanted. It's a matter of priorities.
If you choose not to have children, not to trade up houses at every opportunity, not to go on holiday, to run a banger rather than a nearly new car, to live economically, you can afford to fund a 52."
Good sales rap. Anyone with a half decent job can afford £3685 pre-amp. But that's not the issue. A stand-alone NAP 52 is as much use as a lawn mower on Mars. After all when you have a 52, you'd at least need a NAC500, and what about the PSU's and when you add half decent speakers you're pretty close to thirty grand.
And, obviously, the minute you have the 52, you must have the 552.
That's a different story. TC sounds perfectly happy with his mixed system; why try and push him into something he doesn’t need, and (with all due respect) can't afford right now? There's plenty of salesmen in the stores who use the same half-baked tricks. I don't think we need to badger each other into consumer angst this way.
Herman
And he doesn't seem to have a clear view on the 'Sim Audio', whatever that is.
So I diagnose a systemic problem and suggest TC does a reboot and re-evaluation.
I think you've missed the point regarding the 52, or the CDS2 for that matter.
Paul
quote:
Originally posted by Top Cat:
You mention Fraim. Sorry, not an option at this point in time.
Actually, what I said was that you should use Fraim to determine whether the CDSII dislikes your current support.
I didn't say that Fraim would be your only option to resolve the issue. I am not using Fraim, but I have achieved exactly the improvements you seek with a sheet of (Mana) glass and three ball-nutters.
cheers, Martin
quote:
But TC doesn't sound happy with his system, he borrows a £6000 CD player that's generally acknowledged to be at least competent and isn't enthusiastic.
...at that price! It'd be a bargain at £2000! But at £6000, I expected it to really blow me away from the word go. Perhaps my expectations were too high - people claiming it was almost equal to the best of vinyl. It clearly isn't, based upon an admittedly limited one week demo. That is the real deal for me, whether its performance justifies its price to me relative to cheaper players (e.g. the CDX, say).
On the other hand, perhaps I'm just expecting too much of CD period...
TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."
MAFWIW (My Advice For What It's Worth - sorry I'm trying to get a cool web acronym named after me!)
Haven't read all the posts - hell it 9 pages long! - but here's some questions and thoughts for you.
1. Do you really "need" CD to sound as good as vinyl? IMHO it's a twisty turny road - best to choose a format and be done with it. I choose CD and just use my P25 for second hand stuff.
2. Can you ever get CD to sound as good as vinyl? They're fundamently different to me - who says what's better, but most CDS2 boys still prefer their LP12's! Hmmmmm.
3. Why don't you just buy a CDX and be done with it? You said you liked it - it's a great player and you'll save yourself a fortune.
Jay
On the other hand, the money saved would pay most of a basic wedding 
...hmmmm... wedding... cd player... wedding... tough choice 
TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."
quote:
On the other hand, perhaps I'm just expecting too much of CD period...
You should expect CD to sound potentially way better than vinyl. CD is a much more capable format if used properly.
My first CD player was an original Arcam Alpha, not a fantastic performer in absolute terms. My vinyl source at the time of purchase was LP12/Ekos/Troika and probably a Lingo. The CD player allowed access to material that wasn't available on vinyl ('Does Humor Belong in Music' for example), and by the early 1990s vinyl was getting expensive and crap.
Anyway even with that cheap player, and against a very competent vinyl player, some recordings on CD were capable of doing the 'blowing away' thing.
Given that in the last ten years the CD process has improved significantly, CD players have improved out of all recognition, vinyl effectively has stood still (compared to the rate of improvement in the 1980s) and the sheer quality of a modern CD player into a decent hifi, I think it is a decidedly eccentric position to still aver the superiority of vinyl.
This is basically why I think your system must have a problem. It obviously pleases you with vinyl, but when you plug one of the world's best CD players into it and seem ambivalent....
There was also that thread where you seemed to prefer CD Recordings of vinyl to CD's. I think that's significant.
Anyway, it's your money. Don't spend too much on buying food, drink and flowers for a one off event....
Paul
quote:
Given that in the last ten years the CD process has improved significantly, CD players have improved out of all recognition, vinyl effectively has stood still (compared to the rate of improvement in the 1980s) and the sheer quality of a modern CD player into a decent hifi, I think it is a decidedly eccentric position to still aver the superiority of vinyl.
You may believe this, but I imagine I am not alone by a long chalk in preferring top class vinyl to top class cd. Generally, and of course this is not an absolute, everyone I've yet met who has had exposure to the upper echelons of either format has preferred vinyl in my experience.
quote:
This is basically why I think your system must have a problem. It obviously pleases you with vinyl, but when you plug one of the world's best CD players into it and seem ambivalent....
I don't accept this at all. That would be one possibility, granted, but I suspect the real reason that you think my system has a problem is because it is different to the archetypal Naim-ite system. Throwing up this continual 'your system must have a problem because you didn't think the CDS-II/XPS was the best thing since sliced bread' is a very blinkered viewpoint indeed, IMO.
I've come to the conclusion that in all probability, the direction that Naim wanted to head down with the CDS-II versus where I want to go with CD in general is a little more divergent than it is at the CDX level. Nothing to do with my system being in any way inadequate - which I can assure you it isn't - but rather an issue of voicing compounded by constant hype and an over-inflated expectation on my own part.
Is that fair? The CDS-II/XPS is good, no question, but all-in-all I don't feel that its portrayal of music is necessarily in line with my expectation of a six grand cd player...
TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."
TC: "I suspect the real reason you think my system has a problem is because it is different from the archetypal Naim system."
Going by these posts - folks either spending TC's money like there's no tomorrow, or telling him his system is f@#cked - I'd have to concur with that.
This is going nowhere. I'd much rather hear what TC's going to do, than all these defensive posts.
And by the way, it's perfectly OK to splurge on food, wine and flowers when the occasion arises.
When is el splurge going to happen?
Herman
quote:
That would be one possibility, granted, but I suspect the real reason that you think my system has a problem is because it is different to the archetypal Naim-ite system
I am not a Naim user, so I don't think so.
I am quite attracted to the CDS2, it even looks like good value in the context of other Naim products.
quote:
Throwing up this continual 'your system must have a problem because you didn't think the CDS-II/XPS was the best thing since sliced bread' is a very blinkered viewpoint indeed, IMO.
It's not because you didn't find the CDS2 great, it's because you seem to be having trouble getting a good result from a CD player (I suppose Steven Toy's CDX is the exception?).
quote:
but rather an issue of voicing compounded by constant hype and an over-inflated expectation on my own part.
I find the idea of a CD player having a 'voicing' is an anathema.
Herm posted,
quote:
And by the way, it's perfectly OK to splurge on food, wine and flowers when the occasion arises.
The food wine and flowers in question are mostly enjoyed by people invited by your Mother in Law....
Paul
If it's a lot, it's too much.
If it's tasteful, it's a putdown.
If it's both, they're outa here.
That's why I say pile it on, baby!
Herman
quote:
The Mother-in-Law folks will always cast aspersion on the wine, flowers and food, no matter what.
I've always wondered at couples who invest both large amounts of money and large amounts of emotional energy in the act of getting married. Actually being married must be an anti-climax....
My advice is to keep it simple and cheap, take a decent holiday, and have enough left over for a respectable CD player....
Paul
quote:
It's not because you didn't find the CDS2 great, it's because you seem to be having trouble getting a good result from a CD player (I suppose Steven Toy's CDX is the exception?).
No, I'm not having trouble getting a good result from any of the cd players I've tried thus far (except the Wadia, which wasn't to my tastes at all). WHat it is that none of the players to date have convinced me that they improve sufficiently over the CDX to justify their price.
We're going round in circles here, but to recap:
Moon Eclipse (first time) was disappointing
Steve G's Micromega worked better
CDX worked very well indeed.
CDS-II/XPS was expected to blow my mind but left me a little underwhelmed (after the hype of expectation)
Wadia sucked.
Moon Eclipse (second time) has improved vastly, but jury is still out.
Steve G's CD3.5 is due for comparative audition tonight - as a 'reference point', it should in theory (going on technology, implementation and price) be blown away by the Moon, but I expect it to be a case of 'oranges and apples' in reality.
Wedding: next spring. We're not going to have a hugely expensive ceremony (i.e. maybe 100-120 people max, UK-based honeymoon - riding, sailing, hillwalking style outdoor activity holiday suits us both).
TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."
Please have a proper listen to a very recent vintage Ikemi. Sorry to add to the list but if budget is now a bigger issue than it was, you really should compare the CDX with its competition.
Cheers
Dave