cartridge demo...

Posted by: ken c on 02 June 2001

hi folks:

i spent the better part of last friday at infidelity comparing cartridges on my lp12 which has been there for service as well. simon kindly made available the following cartridges for audition: linn arkiv B, ortofon contrapunkt B, ortofon rohman, dynavector xx2. i gather ortofon offer a trade-in service, so to some extent, i had already given the ortofons higher weighting prior the demo. we were using my aro and infidelity's, so that cartrige changes would be as easy and fast as possible -- and simon made it appear so.

first cartridge: linn arkiv B: i was very impressed with this. it did all the things that the old arkiv B did, but sounded quite a bit warmer and more endearing. there was also a real kick on the percussion, which was quite evident in Ricky Lee Jone's "Under the Boardwalk" and Thomas Mapfumo's "Chimurenga Masterpiece". On Joe Cocker's "Organic" album, "Into the Mystic" sounded very well timed, but the JC's voice was a bit smoother than i know it to be. it lacked (slightly) the rough edge that makes joe cocker the particular vocal signature that he has. On Sonny Rollins "Falling in Love with Jazz", things got a bit confusing as i felt the arkiv wasnt warm enough? i like this track a lot but this time, it left me high and dry. we played one or 2 other records -- my overall impression was that the arkiv B was definitely better than arkiv A, but that compared to my memory of the troika, it didnt quite have that special magic.

Next: Ortofon Contrapunkt B. Right from the word go, i didnt feel at all comfortable with this device. it was far too lightweight for me. here is someone who missed the emphatic sound of the linn isobariks -- there is no way i could live with a catridge that sounded lightweight. almost as if notes didnt have their full value? dont get me wrong now -- it sounded very "nice" and clear, and i can imagine why some would like it, but for me, no thanks.

Next: Dynavector xx2. what have we here, i thought to myself, looking nervously at the exposed windings and other exposed parts. straight off, this cartridge didnt have the kick of the linn, but it scaled well, very well indeed. the sound was very well anchored -- as if the sbls were being pulled down more into the floor. the real surprise was when i played "falling in love with jazz", for the first time ever, i became fully aware that sonny was actually bending and swinging quite a lot of the notes -- not surprising given the genre-- but i had never heard this so clearly. jc's voice had its hoarse character back -- all made sense.

next ortofon rohman: there is only one word i can think of to describe the sound of this one. Bloomy. This was very evident on JC's "into the mystic". although jc's voice wasnt as husky. i was beginning to warm to the rohman till i played sonny rollins -- sounded very nice indeed, but the nuance wasnt as strong as on the xx2.

then i asked simon to switch back to the xx2. i hadnt expected the difference to be so "night and day". i had at last my next next catridge, and the fight wasnt won on points -- for me it was a straight knockout.

the xx2 it is. pity i couldnt save money on the ortofons. i did say to simon that i was a bit nervous with the xx2 -- its new, etc etc... but he assured me that dynavectors support is very good. so i am looking fwd to rediscovering my records with the xx2.

while there, i also ordered my cdsii -- so there is going to be a BIG source change in my system soon -- 2 weeks or so.

will let you know.

enjoy

ken

Posted on: 02 June 2001 by Alex S.

Thanks for the post Ken

I want to move up the DV range from the 20-X I've got at the moment. Its not a patch on my old Troika. What does the DVxx2 cost? If I liked the Troika do you think I would like the DVxx2 (Don't know Arkiv). Naturally I'll go listen but could do with a few pointers.

Regards Alex

Posted on: 02 June 2001 by Steve B

Jeremy,

Quote "I loathe the 10X4 MkII and love the 17D2. "

I'm currently using a 10x4. I have a Nait 1 so am restricted to MM or high output moving coils for the time being. I will be upgrading the Nait later this year - possibly 102/180.

I'm reasonably happy with the 10x4 for it's price, but would like something that compares with the old Karma or Troika.

In what way did you find the 17D2 betters the 10x4?

Steve B

Posted on: 02 June 2001 by ken c

"What does the DVxx2 cost? If I liked the Troika do you think I would like the DVxx2"

afaik: dv xx2 is 995 sterling.

i liked the troika. i was bowled over by the dv xx2 last friday. whether you can extrapolate from this to "you will like the xx2" is a bit difficult. but to me, it had that special magic that remember about the troika...

i have no experience of the dv 20X

enjoy

ken

Posted on: 02 June 2001 by Sproggle

quote:
In what way did you find the 17D2 betters the 10x4?

My experiences with the two cartridges are very different, so it's perhaps a little unfair of me to try to compare them directly: I used a 10X4 Mk II in my LP12/Lingo/Cirkus/Ittok/ 32.5/90/ Kans for two years, and I heard a few minutes of 17D2 fitted to a fellow forum member's LP12/Lingo/ARO with (I think) 72/140 and Shahinian Arcs.

I found the 10X4 could sound marvellous on occasion but all too often it sounded simultaneously harsh, overdamped, and lacking in tonal colour. It also seemed to divide the frequency range into two or three distinct regions - depending on the record. I also had some suspicions about the 10X4's timing but at the time could not decide whether my familiarity with my previous K9's different [inferior?] timing that was responsible for this impression. All I can say is that downgrading to a Rega Elys worked for me. Returning to my K9 after another two years was also a good move.

Although I heard the 17D2 in a very different system for a very short time, it was so much better than the 10X4 that I have no difficulty in saying that it totally outclasses it. I found the 17D2 utterly gripping, with an intensity of emotion that I've rarely experienced from a hi-fi system. The music grabbed me, and wouldn't let go. I was too busy enjoying the music to pay much attention to what the system was doing in hi-fi terms but I do remember its tonal colour was very vivid, and it seemed a little bass light. Also, on the particular record I listened to, instruments sounded very sharply etched. I usually consider descriptions like the latter to be a criticism but in this case it's merely an observation, and I'm quite willing to believe it was a characteristic of the microphones used.

As for my recommendation, Steve, if you can stand the failings of your 10X4 [and most people's experience of the 10X4 seems quite different from mine] then I would recommend upgrading your turntable with at least two of Lingo, Cirkus and Ekos [or ARO] before the amplifier or cartridge - especially if you plan to end up with a system of the calibre you had before. Upgrading my LP12/Lingo/Cirkus/Ittok with an Ekos made a huge difference to my system with a mere K9. Since the 10X4 has a low output for an MM cartridge, would probably benefit from an arm that can tame it better than the Ittok can, I suspect that upgrading the turntable would make even more difference to the sound than my Ittok/K9 to Ekos/K9 did.

A NAIT 1 will respond to source upgrades almost indefinitely, as far as I can tell.

I think you are wise to consider a 102 (minimum) for your choice of preamplifier rather than a 32.5, 62 or 72.

Happy upgrading

--Jeremy

Posted on: 02 June 2001 by Steve B

Thanks Jeremy, very helpful.

I was planning to do the cirkus upgrade before amp/cartridge. I'm not to sure about the Lingo though, as I wasn't particularly impressed with that the first time around - mind you it was one of the early ones so it might have been upsetting the rest of the system in some way. I felt the Cirkus gave me twice the improvement for half the cost.

The Ekos is now out of range cost wise but I might try the Aro at some point.

Steve B

Posted on: 03 June 2001 by Alex S.

And then there are those who think Cirkus makes the deck sound worse: more "hi-fi" less musical.

Those with Mana think the deck only works properly on Mana and most feel the cirkus + Mana is uneccessary -

Sadly, all this is based on hearsay rather than on my hearing - but check other threads.

I don't think that anyone has ever said a Lingo did not improve the deck, the argument is how much and whether other PSs do a better job: Naim, Norton etc.

Posted on: 03 June 2001 by Joe Petrik

Ken,

Thanks for the report.

Did the guys at Infidelity give you any idea how the XX-2 compares with the discontinued XX-1? If so, is the XX-2 simply an improved XX-1 or a different beast? From the description and picture on DV's Web site, the XX-2 looks like a scaled-down XV-1 so I suspect it's completely different from the cartridge it replaced.

Inquiring minds want to know.

Joe

P.S. What phono cards did you use for the dem?

Posted on: 03 June 2001 by Martin Payne

quote:
I don't think that anyone has ever said a Lingo did not improve the deck

Alex,

overall, the Lingo killed my enjoyment of the music. I was much happier when I sold it & bought an armaggedon.

quote:
However, for me, the Lingo addresses a fundamental failing of the LP12. I found the poor speed stability of my pre-Lingo LP12 really irritating, mainly because of the way it made heavy transients sound "tired"

Sproggle,

strange - this is what I didn't like about the Lingo, and which was more-than cured by the armaggedon, which has much more life & dynamics to it.

quote:
is the XX-2 simply an improved XX-1 or a different beast?

my dealer reckons the XX1 was the odd-man-out of the range, not sounding anything much like the ones below or above it in price, and ultimately not as well rounded. Perhaps this has something to do with it's large mass.

The XX-does indeed appear to be a cut-down XV-1.

cheers, Martin

Posted on: 03 June 2001 by ken c

joe, this was also the first time simon@infidelity had heard the xx2, so i dont think they have a view yet. i am sure they will have one pretty soon.

we were using prefix K/hicap into bnc on 52, which i believe is just line level.

looks like i settled for what you recommended for me in another thread, iirc, yes? in the end, the choice was very straight fwd indeed and much much easier than i thought. probably because i put quite a lot of weight on any hifi equipment that exposes musical nuances -- and the xx2 did excell in this area. all in all, a very useful day last friday turned out to be.

enjoy

ken

Posted on: 03 June 2001 by ken c

The XX2-does indeed appear to be a cut-down XV-1.

i think i remember frank abela saying just this -- apologies to frank if i am mistaken.

enjoy

ken

Posted on: 03 June 2001 by ken c

there are a few important points i left out in my report of the demo.

first, when i arrived, a system exactly the same as mine was already set up!!! i hadnt specifically asked for this, although of course, this makes a lot of sense. i felt immediately comfortable.

all the electronics were on quadraspire tables -- and they looked rather nice.

the lp12 was on a wall shelf -- looked like an audiotech -- will double check.

speakers were terminated with airlocks. infidelity's system sounded a lot better than mine -- and i did mention this to simon. however, i have now got to the bottom of the problem, and can report this "if there is interest"

all in all, a very competently conducted demo -- with a definitive result. felt comfortable enough to order the xx2. and infidelity definitely deserve my cdsii business.

enjoy

ken

Posted on: 04 June 2001 by Dev B

Fantastic write up.

Glad you have found a cartridge you liked and you won't be disappointed with the CDS2.

I was a teeny weeny bit concerned to read that you thought the shops system was better than your home one. I suggest you try and nail this one down - it could be the your set up and/or the room - but it is worth getting the Infidelity guys to help. Usually shop demo systems sound worse than home ones.

Again, excellent write up.

regards

Dev

Posted on: 04 June 2001 by ken c

dev B: many thanks for kind comments. i tell you though, the first time i saw xx2 in flesh -- i said "no way!!!" -- looked a bit too flimsy. but at the end of the day, its ability to play music did it for me -- so i will just have to learn to live with it. i think its probably well suited to the ARO arm too. its also interesting that, until i heard the xx2, i didnt know what i was missing with the other catridges. if the xx2 wasnt there, i would have ended up with the rohman, but this would merely be a much sweeter cartridge than the arkiv A, with lots of detail, but not as much music (in my view) as the xx2, which was far better in that respect. what i will have to learn to live with is that the xx2 wasnt as explosive as the arkiv B -- but hey, you cant have it all. i could probably achieve what i want for 2 or 3 times the cost... nop.

I was a teeny weeny bit concerned to read that you thought the shops system was better than your home one.

yeah. when i got home that day, i wasnt just "teeny weent bit concerned" -- i was downright depressed. it was now so obvious that my system was sounding much, much worse than infidelity's. i had suspected that much in the run-up to the demo and this was driving me scatty. some sort of reverse warm-up or what? solder for the new naim plugs bedding in??

however, the good news is that its all sorted now, and the system now sounds (insert own expletive here) fabulous - better than it has ever been.

will report later.

enjoy

ken

Posted on: 04 June 2001 by Frank Abela

The XX2 is not a cut down XV-1.

The XX2 and Te Kaitora are based on the XX-1 in design. The XV-1 has a very different design. It places 8 magnets around the coils whereas the XX/TK's have the magnet on a pole piece below the coils.

The XX2 is basically an XX-1 with better magnet, coils, reshaped body (almost no body) and flux damper switch removed. The Te Kaitora has an even better magnet than XX2 (the shape is different even though it's the same material) and uses silver coils as opposed to the XX's copper ones. It also has the titanium base where the XX's are/were aluminium.

The XX2 has a very good cartridge guard (at last). None of the others do (a real pain in the ****).

Ken, it sounds to me like you might be a Dynavector person. There are Troika fans out there who can't live with Dynavectors and there are those who can't live with Ortofons. It's impossible to tell which camp any Troika fan will fall into, which is why I'm always careful to mention competition.

I am a little concerned that you say the KontrapunktB sounded thin - this sounds to me like an azimuth problem. The KontrapunktB is very susceptible to azimuth problems. It is easy to set it up incorrectly as it has a ridge along its body so you can set azimuth by tightening one bolt shorter than the other (difficult to describe). Also, I haven't tried it with the Naim boards - I'd expect to use the S boards since it's got fairly high-ish output for a moving coil (0.6mV). Not sure what you were using. Still, since you tuned into the Dyn so much, (and over the Rohman for the same reasons I did) it sounds like that house style (also true of the TK, but not so much for the XV-1) is for you. Welcome to the club!

Regards,
Frank.

Posted on: 04 June 2001 by ken c

The XX2 is not a cut down XV-1. yeah, i did suspect i had misquoted you here -- sorry about that and thanks for accepting the apology in advance.

Ken, it sounds to me like you might be a Dynavector person. There are Troika fans out there who can't live with Dynavectors and there are those who can't live with Ortofons.

yes, i simply wouldnt have predicted this prior to the demo -- as i mentioned the idea of a kontrapunkt was very attractive financially -- lots of cd's one can buy with 250 pounds, plus of course, the trade in on my arkiv A - 150 pounds or so, making 400 pounds -- serious money!!! but i couldnt see how i could live with the way it sounded during the demo. could be the azimuth -- i have to mention that simon didnt think it was as lightweight as i am painting here, so...

i loved the troika -- it had that special combination of explosive pace and warmth that endeared me to it. it wasnt the clearest tracker though, so i would imagine clinical detail lovers stayed away from it. the arkiv A had the detail, but the special formula that combined pace and warmth was different, and there wasnt that much musical nuance in the mix. from my short exposure to arkiv B, almost same explosive power as the troika, great detail, but now not as warm. what can you do?? then xx2, not as explosive as arkiv B, equal or slightly less so than rohman, which was a lot sweeter. but plenty plenty musical nuance -- that which makes a performance a performance. i'm definitely prepared to give away a bit of the slam for that.

it would have been interesting to have one of the lyra's in the running (helikon??)-- but this would have taken a lot more time -- and i dont think simon carries lyra anyway...

i believe we were using K boards (on my prefix K)for all the cartridges auditioned. i will double check though.

many thanks for your comments frank.

enjoy

ken

Posted on: 04 June 2001 by Joe Petrik

Frank,

quote:
The XX2 and Te Kaitora are based on the XX-1 in design. The XV-1 has a very different design. It places 8 magnets around the coils whereas the XX/TK's have the magnet on a pole piece below the coils.

No doubt true but I just reread the poop on DV's Web site and the XX-2 does share the alnico magnet in common with the top-of-the-line XV-1, so maybe it's more of a hybrid cartridge. The Te Kaitora, although above the XX-2 in the line-up, doesn't have the fancy-shmancy alnico magnet that the XX-2 or XV-1 has.

Joe

Posted on: 04 June 2001 by Dev B

Maul Pessenger in his recent review of the XV1 mentioned the specific character difference between the Arkiv B and the Dynavector XV-1. He described the Arkiv B as a cartridge that has slam, dynamics and detail in abundance, and the Alnico'ed XV1 to be more seductive, it didn't have the slam of the Arkiv but a more seductive mid-range which made voices have more colour, saxes have more body, etc. He noticed the same quality with old speakers that had Alnico magnets - more colour and intonation in the mid.

I, think there is a diference in design philosophy here between the Scantech made Arkiv and Dynavectors, one brand (Scantech) is a bit more dynamics and pacs oriented while the Dynavectors go for a purer midband.

I can't comment on Ortofons as I aint heard any except the Rohmann (which was very boring) and the MC25 supreme (which was great).

Dev B (on the wheels of steel)

Posted on: 04 June 2001 by ken c

quote:
He (Paul Messenger) described the Arkiv B as a cartridge that has slam, dynamics and detail in abundance, and the Alnico'ed XV1 to be more seductive, it didn't have the slam of the Arkiv but a more seductive mid-range which made voices have more colour, saxes have more body, etc.

so it seems as of there is a family sonic signature between xx2 and xv1 -- i guess not surprising really. i a really looking fwd to hearing my xx2 at home...

enjoy

ken