supercapped prefix (again...)
Posted by: ken c on 16 February 2004
i know this has been done before -- but what the heck, i just couldnt keep this to myself.
having sold my snaxo and one of my 250's, i am now back to passive. after the buyer collected the 250 yesterday, i was left with a supercap "doing nothing". just this morning, i thought to myself (instead of working!) ah... i could try the supercap on the prefix -- something i have alyways wanted to do, but havent been able to.
it turned out to be quite awkward to set up because the prefix snaic is quite short and i couldnt get it to input 1 on the supercap. i had to rotate it 90 degrees to bring input 1 within reach of the prefix cable from the lp12 sitting on the audiotech on its right. the prefix's supercap is now below the 252 on the isoblue rack.
enough of this ramble -- what did it sound like when i connected it.
seriously good is the short answer. i can use all sorts of colourful language to describe how good it was/is but i thinking describing it devalues it. its something to be heard, not described.
there is a thought entering my mind now that perhaps i shouldnt sell the supercap after all -- but i have no cd player now -- and the idea was to generate funds for this and gradually work my way up to active with Mk II kit over time.
whatever i decide, supercap on a prefix is something seriously special (me suspects more than supercap on snaxo, but cant test this now). it makes me ask, "is there an end to whats on vinyl"? -- actually REDUCED surface noise on some of my very old records -- which were abused when i was a student.
hmmm...
enjoy
ken
having sold my snaxo and one of my 250's, i am now back to passive. after the buyer collected the 250 yesterday, i was left with a supercap "doing nothing". just this morning, i thought to myself (instead of working!) ah... i could try the supercap on the prefix -- something i have alyways wanted to do, but havent been able to.
it turned out to be quite awkward to set up because the prefix snaic is quite short and i couldnt get it to input 1 on the supercap. i had to rotate it 90 degrees to bring input 1 within reach of the prefix cable from the lp12 sitting on the audiotech on its right. the prefix's supercap is now below the 252 on the isoblue rack.
enough of this ramble -- what did it sound like when i connected it.
seriously good is the short answer. i can use all sorts of colourful language to describe how good it was/is but i thinking describing it devalues it. its something to be heard, not described.
there is a thought entering my mind now that perhaps i shouldnt sell the supercap after all -- but i have no cd player now -- and the idea was to generate funds for this and gradually work my way up to active with Mk II kit over time.
whatever i decide, supercap on a prefix is something seriously special (me suspects more than supercap on snaxo, but cant test this now). it makes me ask, "is there an end to whats on vinyl"? -- actually REDUCED surface noise on some of my very old records -- which were abused when i was a student.
hmmm...
enjoy
ken
Posted on: 16 February 2004 by Ron Toolsie
quote:
whatever i decide, supercap on a prefix is something seriously special (me suspects more than supercap on snaxo, but cant test this now).
My findings exactly-even though the Prefix accesses just one pair of regulated voltage rails as compared to 4 pairs the Snaxo3-6 did. I would rather a Supercap on the Prefix and a Hicap on the Snaxo than the other way round. In fact I preferred the Prefix/$350 VdH cartridge/Supercap overwhelmingly to the Prefix/Troika/self powered from 52.
The lower surface noise that the supercap seemingly imparts may be less transient overloading by very high slew rate ticks and pops as well as lower noise voltage feeds.
There is the mild risk that using a supercap with a less-than-capable cartridge would make the sound too etched lacking credible warmth. The built in phono boards by their warm nature would then sometimes be somewhat preferable tonally, although it is rather dynamically squashed and lacking in articulation by comparison.
Ron
Dum spiro audio
Dum audio vivo
Posted on: 16 February 2004 by John
Ken C.
What cartridge were you using? I have an XX2 and apparently some people have the view the XX2/Prefix/Supercap is too much. This has held me back from buying a supercap.
John
What cartridge were you using? I have an XX2 and apparently some people have the view the XX2/Prefix/Supercap is too much. This has held me back from buying a supercap.
John
Posted on: 16 February 2004 by Fozz
Forgive me for butting in but I can vouch that the xx2 prefix supercap combination is out of this world. Having moved from Troika to XX2 somewhat with caution I was stunned at the neutrality of the xx2 and the myriad of extra detail coming off the black stuff. Some said (myself included) that the troika was top for timing. The xx2 did not loose out here, it just built on that and made once difficult disks sound effortless. I know my troika was
long in the cantilever but I do not remember it coping with end of side tracks so well.
Supercapping brought amazing clarity especially at the top end, an aparent half octave of bass more from the SBL, far more tune in the bass. Its not "too much" at all, give me more!
All the best
Gary
long in the cantilever but I do not remember it coping with end of side tracks so well.
Supercapping brought amazing clarity especially at the top end, an aparent half octave of bass more from the SBL, far more tune in the bass. Its not "too much" at all, give me more!
All the best
Gary
Posted on: 16 February 2004 by cw22
Hi Ken...
I'm pleased something interesting came out of sale of the 250 / going passive again. Guess your pleased I didn't take the supercap too!
Carl.
ps. 250 is superb in my system... very noticable improvement, boy do I want a 52 now to use it to greater potential. I still recommend a Fraim should be in your upgrade funds though!
I'm pleased something interesting came out of sale of the 250 / going passive again. Guess your pleased I didn't take the supercap too!
Carl.
ps. 250 is superb in my system... very noticable improvement, boy do I want a 52 now to use it to greater potential. I still recommend a Fraim should be in your upgrade funds though!
Posted on: 16 February 2004 by ken c
quote:
Originally posted by cw22:
Hi Ken...
I'm pleased something interesting came out of sale of the 250 / going passive again. Guess your pleased I didn't take the supercap too!
Carl.
ps. 250 is superb in my system... very noticable improvement, boy do I want a 52 now to use it to greater potential. I still recommend a Fraim should be in your upgrade funds though!
hi carl,
i was actually wondering how you got on with my(?) 250 -- i am pleased to hear its superb -- well to be honest, i didnt expect any other outcome. yes, a 52 will do very nicely indeed -- i guess there will be a few on the mkt soon as people upgrade to 252's.
yes, y're right the experiment with the supercap/prefix has highlighted something that i hadnt really appreciated -- that there is yet more to be extracted from this black stuff -- where does it end? so, do i need a cd player at all?? of course, i do.
you have planted a seed with your fraim -- i dont know whether i have room for it, but we'll see.
all the best carl...
enjoy
ken
Posted on: 16 February 2004 by ken c
quote:
Originally posted by John:
Ken C.
What cartridge were you using? I have an XX2 and apparently some people have the view the XX2/Prefix/Supercap is too much. This has held me back from buying a supercap.
John
john, cartridge is non other than DV XX2 !!!
i guess i don't understand "too much"?
i could tell i liked what the supercap did (a lot!!!) when i went and dug up a whole lot of old lp's to play.
there is also no doubting that a "better" cartridge may enhance the effect many times over. fortunately, i cant afford a better cartridge as i am focussing on other aspects of my system right now. but the new prefix is definitely on the cards...
enjoy
ken
Posted on: 16 February 2004 by ken c
ron,
...I would rather a Supercap on the Prefix and a Hicap on the Snaxo than the other way round.
i still have my hicap -- so when i work my way back to active, i will try this in anger and see what i feel. given my experiment today i suspect i will like the scap on the prefix more. of course, if money grew on trees, we would just have supercaps on both prefix and snaxo and be done with it...
it strikes me though that powering prefix with a supercap is a bit of overkill as prefix doesnt use all its "power". on the other hand, you and i KNOW that prefix/supercap is a lot better than prefix/hicap -- which suggests to me there is a missing power supply that does what the supercap is doing to the prefix but doesnt have all the "bells and whistles" that the scap brings into the equation. i would buy such a power supply.
many thanks for comments...
enjoy
ken
...I would rather a Supercap on the Prefix and a Hicap on the Snaxo than the other way round.
i still have my hicap -- so when i work my way back to active, i will try this in anger and see what i feel. given my experiment today i suspect i will like the scap on the prefix more. of course, if money grew on trees, we would just have supercaps on both prefix and snaxo and be done with it...
it strikes me though that powering prefix with a supercap is a bit of overkill as prefix doesnt use all its "power". on the other hand, you and i KNOW that prefix/supercap is a lot better than prefix/hicap -- which suggests to me there is a missing power supply that does what the supercap is doing to the prefix but doesnt have all the "bells and whistles" that the scap brings into the equation. i would buy such a power supply.
many thanks for comments...
enjoy
ken
Posted on: 16 February 2004 by ken c
something else that i tried today.
LP12 on the top shelf of my isoblue -- this is where the cds2 used to live.
useless!! no music. i quickly gave up on this configuration and went back to my trusty audiotech table. the isoblue just completely lost the plot. strange, this -- i have found it OK with the cdsii. might need to revisit this issue at some point.
enjoy
ken
LP12 on the top shelf of my isoblue -- this is where the cds2 used to live.
useless!! no music. i quickly gave up on this configuration and went back to my trusty audiotech table. the isoblue just completely lost the plot. strange, this -- i have found it OK with the cdsii. might need to revisit this issue at some point.
enjoy
ken
Posted on: 16 February 2004 by Ron Toolsie
quote:
which suggests to me there is a missing power supply that does what the supercap is doing to the prefix but doesnt have all the "bells and whistles" that the scap brings into the equation. i would buy such a power supply.
There is such a supply. Sadly it isn't made by Naim. Doesn't prevent me from using one though. See my profile for details if you care.
Ron
Dum spiro audio
Dum audio vivo
Posted on: 16 February 2004 by John
Ron, please tell us more about this Epona SPS power supply. I've searched the net trying to find one with no luck. Does it use DIN connectors? Did you compare it to a Supercap or Hicap?
Thanks
John
Thanks
John
Posted on: 16 February 2004 by steve barnard
What type of prefix does one use with an XX2? I'm currently running a 10x5 with K boards but am thinking of getting a Prefix this year. Does choosing a certain prefix (K, S or N) close doors on future cartridge up-grades?
Posted on: 16 February 2004 by John
I use the S prefix with the XX2 and have tried it with the K. The S and XX2 are very well matched. The K sucked some of the weight out of the bass. The highs and mids were very similar.
The door isn't closed as you can always convert the prefix.
John
The door isn't closed as you can always convert the prefix.
John
Posted on: 16 February 2004 by Manu
quote:
Originally posted by John:
The door isn't closed as you can always convert the prefix.
John
From K to S and reverse but not with N.
Emmanuel
Euphonie
All opinions are my own, and reflect those of the organisation i work for, even if not stipulated.
Posted on: 16 February 2004 by Hermann
John
May I jump in. Epona is made by a well known guy over in Scotland. You will find him on the Mana forum. His name is Fox. Using Epona since years. Black Beauty for my LP12 and SPS for the prefix.
I powered prefix with s/cap for many years and it was really good. Then I switched to 552 and I powered it by the new pre. This was significant better compared with s/cap. End of last year I got an Epona SPS for prefix and again it was a huge improvment over the 552 ps.
Hermann
quote:
Ron, please tell us more about this Epona SPS power supply. I've searched the net trying to find one with no luck. Does it use DIN connectors? Did you compare it to a Supercap or Hicap?
May I jump in. Epona is made by a well known guy over in Scotland. You will find him on the Mana forum. His name is Fox. Using Epona since years. Black Beauty for my LP12 and SPS for the prefix.
I powered prefix with s/cap for many years and it was really good. Then I switched to 552 and I powered it by the new pre. This was significant better compared with s/cap. End of last year I got an Epona SPS for prefix and again it was a huge improvment over the 552 ps.
Hermann
Posted on: 16 February 2004 by John
Hermann, thanks for the info. Does the Epona use a DIN connection? What did this unit cost?
John
John
Posted on: 16 February 2004 by Hermann
Yes it uses DIN connector. Please feel free to ask Fox for the prices.
Hermann
Hermann
Posted on: 17 February 2004 by Ron Toolsie
quote:
Ron, please tell us more about this Epona SPS power supply. I've searched the net trying to find one with no luck. Does it use DIN connectors? Did you compare it to a Supercap or Hicap?
The SPS is tricked out for power/signal applications- which means it works very well with the Prefix and preamps, but not with the CD5 where the signal does not pass through the power supply. I have compared the SPS to a 52-powered Prefix and a Supercap powered Prefix. I find the SPS to be warmer, fuller and less leading edge emphasis than does the Supercap as well as digging a bit deeper in the bass-without losing any detail or dynamics. It does look like an ugly dogs dinner next to the Supercap. It does use the same type of sliding case damper on the back as do the Naim boxes.
The chassis is also rather less prone to ringing upon percussion. It has one Din power out and one Din4 signal out- not x3 signal outs like the Hi/Supercap. So it can also send a signal from a SPS powered preamp via a stereo cable to a single stereo amp. Monoblocks and bi-amps need not apply. The internal build quality also seems rather less neat than that of any piece of Naim gear.
I really like the results when I take the signal out from the Prefix/SPS and send it straight (via a DIN4-2RCA cable) into the inputs of a CD-Recorder, bypassing the 52's tape stage completely. The results are then very very good on the CD's I burn from LPs.
It is rather cheaper than a new supercap although you can get used supercaps for not too much more than a new SPS (my SPS a couple years ago was $1000 shipped, although with the passage of time and the decline of the US dollar it may be considerably more than that now) that are far more versatile in its spectrum of applications
Ron
Dum spiro audio
Dum audio vivo
Posted on: 17 February 2004 by John
Thanks Ron,
Would you say the SPS is a good as a Supercap? but slightly different? I have been holding off on putting a *cap on my prefix because I feel the hipcap is a temporary step and the Supercap is too large of a pill to swallow. A second hand SC is OK but it's still $1,800 to $2,000. Nice to know there is another option, too bad Naim doesn't have a specific product for the prefix. It would be so easy for Naim to make them as the design is already in the SC.
John
Would you say the SPS is a good as a Supercap? but slightly different? I have been holding off on putting a *cap on my prefix because I feel the hipcap is a temporary step and the Supercap is too large of a pill to swallow. A second hand SC is OK but it's still $1,800 to $2,000. Nice to know there is another option, too bad Naim doesn't have a specific product for the prefix. It would be so easy for Naim to make them as the design is already in the SC.
John
Posted on: 18 February 2004 by Ron Toolsie
quote:
Would you say the SPS is a good as a Supercap? but slightly different? I have been holding off on putting a *cap on my prefix because I feel the hipcap is a temporary step and the Supercap is too large of a pill to swallow.
In my system I have a preference for the SPS over the Supercap when powering the Prefix. This has more to do with its particular subjective tonal balance- there is no doubt that either the SPS or the Supercap are miles ahead of the 52-powered Prefix. I could be happy using either, and fortunately I have the ability to make the choice between them. I have no idea which one I would favour using a different cartridge, or speakers.
Ron
Dum spiro audio
Dum audio vivo
Posted on: 19 February 2004 by MarkEJ