Swimming against the tide...

quote:

Originally posted by Wazza69:
I found using a old Arcam CD72 as a transport to be a great improvement over the the MBP and Sonos (and yes I was using good quality rips using a properly setup XLD or Max on my Mac)

Tried it, got precisely the opposite results to yourself. The CD transport(s) I have tried are behind MacBook/PV or Amarra sonically. It's not that close, either.

Differing results are good reasons why folks should try for themselves.

Joe

quote:

Originally posted by Wazza69:
Am I mad in the context of the current trends?

As long as the music you like can be found on this good old CD, I'd say you are absolutely sane in my view! I'm in the IT and the last thing I want is a crappy pile of sotware/hardware in the way of the enjoyment I get by listening to music.

Don't buy crappy hardware/software then!

quote:

Originally posted by DHT:
Don't buy crappy hardware/software then!

I'd avoid it if I could! Fact is that computer + storage + streamer + router + internet connection will (sadly) never be as reliable as a dedicated CD-player. Now, I reckon I love being a bit oldschool when it comes to playing music or movies

quote:

Originally posted by {OdS}:

I'd avoid it if I could! Fact is that computer + storage + streamer + router + internet connection will (sadly) never be as reliable as a dedicated CD-player. Now, I reckon I love being a bit oldschool when it comes to playing music or movies

What a lot of nonsense. Different methods of playing WAV files, either of which can physically "fail". FWIW my Mac has already lasted longer than my first CD transport did.

Joe

Since 1986, I have had five CD players, including two from Naim. Only one did not fail in the mechanism [Naim CD3]. The first [Sony/Ferguson] had three in eighteen months, though that was considered very bad luck.

I have never had PC Hard Drive failure, though I am well and truly backed up.

CDP replay has one more Achilles Heal than usual. Two in reality. Expensive transports which always fail eventually, and "on the fly" error correction, which is never as fine as a proper rip to the Hard Drive. It is no wonder that the computer route is better sounding unless you spend a house deposit sized sum of money on the player!

Before long even this advantage will fade ...

ATB from George

Answer to your question. You're a "bit" mad. Musical enjoyment is largely psychological in nature - what you say you enjoy...well.....who are we to argue. Witness those who can "hear" the direction of copper in power leads.

But I find HD-based replay to be much more convenient. Reliability can be an issue with either system.

With respect to George's comments regarding error correction, I see no reason why CD players couldn't adopt the computer's methods of re-reading the bits to correct errors and still basically play the music in real time. My Mac Mini has no problems playing a CD while it is ripping one (or playing a completely different album, more often). Computing power is readily available to read the disc many times faster than needs be for real-time playback. Could you not have the best of both worlds? That hi-end CD players don't take advantage of this is perhaps evidence that it doesn't matter much.

Dear winky,

I mentioned the idea of a delay at the start of playing a CD [so that at least a double or triple read could be managed before the player committed itself to correcting the errors] to a hifi salesman ten years ago now. He said it was a mad idea. He also said it was not how it was done!

It still is not how it's done. If it were then no doubt CDP replay would stand a chance of keeping ahead of the Hard Drive method in the coming years.

To me it is obvious that on times a rip is significantly finer than playing the same disc directly on a CD player.

When I said this here in 2003, even though I had managed great results with ripped and reburned CDs that struggled to play well in a normal CD player, I was ridiculed as well!

That's life!

ATB from George

George,

Some friends of mine had every single CD in their collection rendered unplayable by a meddling toddler. They eventually bought an iPod and tried to rip the damaged CDs for loading onto the iPod. Nearly every CD was able to be ripped at good quality. To me this underpins what you say. Computers do it better.

Winky

Wayne seems like a CD5XS or CDX2-2 would be perfect for you. Best of both worlds as they say, with upgrade via the DAC if ever desired and a way of having a hub for digital files if you go that way again in the future.

Wayne,

My Cyrus CD8 sounds very fine using either Ndac or Weiss Dac2. I preferred to use it without dac when I had a Lavry DA10. I'm sure your Arcam CD72 is a very capable cd transport.

However I disagree with you that a MacBook actually sounds worse.

Keith

quote:

I just sold my Lavry DAC and am now looking for a high quality CD player.

Good move IMHO - that said the new Naim DAC is far far far far far better than the Lavry (at least the two DA10 samples I've heard). I've not heard a MacBook with the new Naim DAC, but have heard the Naim DAC with a CDX2-2 and it was superb.

A dedicated Naim CDP is much more reliable and serviceable than a computer IME. Only CD drives I've had that failed were in a MacBook and in the car - both those slot loading types, which I'll avoid in future if I can.

The sonos is just as good a source for 16/44 as any tos computer connection. Even has a coax out. It's a bit better than an SB3 for instance.

To each his own but this was Lavry #2 for Wazza69. Can't say he didn't give it a fair shake. As I recall, this was a 'good one' compared to his 1st.

quote:

Originally posted by ROTF:
...the new Naim DAC is far far far far far better than the Lavry (at least the two DA10 samples I've heard).

I agree the Naim DAC's better than the Lavry, but just "better" IMO, not far X 4 better! Having recently heard Naim/Lavry/Weiss DACs in my system I was quite surprised how relatively similar they all sounded. I'll probably end up getting a Naim DAC at some stage, but the Lavry's astonishingly good VFM in my book.

(Next time you're up for another miserable afternoon with the Tractor Boys you're very welcome to come in for a listen & a cup of Bovril ROTF)

Anyway Wayne, why not keep the DAC and use a CD transport as has previously been suggested? I love CDs to play and to own, the computer stuff's very good and ultra convenient, LPs sound best but are not always convenient to use. Don't restrict your sources, just add to them, they're all high quality.

Hi,

This was my second Lavry and with the Arcam transport I felt that I really heard what it was capable of and felt that the Sonos and MBP were a limiting factor. With the transport, I could hear that the Lavry was a much higher end source that I was used to in terms of the amount of detail it dug up. However, to my ears I just didn't feel it was as musical as some of the CD players I am considering (CD5X(s), CDX2)

The other factor may be my rips. I setup Max to do accuraterips but not sure if the quality of my drive in my MBP is the best. I have seen others complain about it on hydrogenaudio. That is another reason why I have gone off computer audio - I just can't be bothered faffing around trying to get a good rip on a good drive etc when I can just pop a CD in. I would love a HDX but can't afford it so I am hoping that eventually Naim will have a more affordable solution.

Anyway, I am keeping the Sonos and NAS in the loft and will probably return to computer audio in a few years when all new releases are download only! There should be some exciting products by then and hopefully may be a mainstream standard for hires files.

tonym - I see you point around multiple sources but with a wedding and new house to pay for in harder times I would rather purchase one good quality source rather than split it amongst three or so lesser sources. Budget is around £1200 so hoping to pick up a used CDX2 if I am lucky.

Wayne

Their is a awful lot of nonsense spouted about ripping, sadly mostly by dealers hoping you wil but an HDX for it's 'magic' rips.
The lavry had better resolution but wasn't as 'musical' what does that mean, that the cd player had less resolution, rolled off bass and treble?

quote:

Originally posted by DHT:
Their is a awful lot of nonsense spouted about ripping, sadly mostly by dealers hoping you wil but an HDX for it's 'magic' rips.
The lavry had better resolution but wasn't as 'musical' what does that mean, that the cd player had less resolution, rolled off bass and treble?

To my ears, the Lavry sounded exactly what it is: A pro audio device designed for accuracy in a studio situation. I thought it had excellent resolution but to me, not as musical as the CD players I compared it to. Others will undoubtably disagree but thats the beauty of our hobby and forums.

W Hi you keep repeating 'musical' but what does that mean? It has no meaning, tell me exactly how the lavry was worse the cd player better?

I mean that it captures the essence of the musical performance and communicates that to the listener. I found that the CD5X and the CDX2 did this but the Lavry provided me a more mechanical presentation in comparison.

Its obviously just my opinion and a very subjective one at that! However, I do play a number of instruments (guitar, bass, drums) so do know what musical sounds like to my own ears.

quote:

Originally posted by Joe Bibb:
What a lot of nonsense. Different methods of playing WAV files, either of which can physically "fail". FWIW my Mac has already lasted longer than my first CD transport did.

Nonsense is typically a personnal point of view... In my view and experience, computers are not as reliable as dedicated CD players are. None of my CD players failed to this date and I'm talking Technics, Sony, Pioneer and Arcam here; not 15k+ players. 8 hard drive failures, countless blue screen of death, crashes to desktop and so on are enough to keep me away of computers for music replay

quote:

Originally posted by AllenB:
Jeeeeeesh, what do you do to your hard drives

I should have mentioned IBM hard drives. Back in those days, Sillicon Graphics had a 10 to 15% return rate on their Intel workstation thanks to the countless failures of the IBM drives. I must admit though that I haven't had a single failure in the last five years or so.

quote:

Originally posted by Wazza69:
I mean that it captures the essence of the musical performance and communicates that to the listener. I found that the CD5X and the CDX2 did this but the Lavry provided me a more mechanical presentation in comparison.

Its obviously just my opinion and a very subjective one at that! However, I do play a number of instruments (guitar, bass, drums) so do know what musical sounds like to my own ears.

Careful Wazza, you're not allowed to have an opinion if you like something else better. I think the MAX rips were probably fine, by the way. ALAC or FLAC vs WAV or probably AIFF on playback is probably more significant.