NAS attached to Naim DAC by USB?

You can't connect a NAS directly to a Naim DAC. You need a computer or streamer device with SPDIF output to bridge between the two.

Eloise

An interesting question.

I would like to get some insight into how Naim plans to deal with NAS delivery aswell, especially since there is no way to deliver audio to the nDAC direct from a NAS over a network.

The attraction of the Linn DS lies in its' direct network capability instead of having to fart around with an external S/PDIF converter.
The alternative of playing with USB sticks or Iphone delivery is never going to be a proper solution for a NAS based system.

You might aswell stream thru' a laptop using someething like ASIO4ALL and its S/PDIF out if you are going to have to convert anyway, but this is not a 'pure' solution as far as I am concerned.

regards
Geoff

Naim have dealt with it, its called uniti serve.

quote:

Originally posted by garyi:
Naim have dealt with it, its called uniti serve.

And the HDX-SSD if you want analogue output from your "streamer".

Gary and Eloise

All fine and good if you need the various processes offered by these products. In my case ( and I realise this is being selfish)

Because I have solutions in place for the following already
1) I don't need a CD Ripper
2) I don't need a hard Disk store
3) I don't need a pre amp or a power amp
4) I don't need network management to stream audio
5) I don't need music search or meta data and album art retrieval


All I personally want is a really high quality direct networked interfaced DAC to output analog stereo into my 552/500. The rest of the electronics offered and paid for in the products you mention is superfulous for me and wasted money.

I do realise the products you mention are very good 'start from zero' solutions but I am sure you can see the HDX-SSD for example has a lot of functions I don't need

regards
geoff

quote:

Originally posted by Geoff P:
All I personally want is a really high quality direct networked interfaced DAC to output analog stereo into my 552/500.

How are you going to select the tracks to be played? You need some form of streamer to do that.

The DAC is exactly what it says on the tin - a DAC. What you are after is a streamer with the DAC as the converter but integrated within the same box. As far as I'm aware, that doesn't yet exist - the nDAC is by all accounts better than the DACs in all the streaming products.

You have a couple of routes:

• UnitiServe style products from the hifi manufacturers into nDAC
  
• Squeezebox touch style products from computer peripheral manufacturers into nDAC
  
• Mac mini/PC with software into nDAC
  
• All in one streamers/converters from the likes of Linn without using the nDAC at all.
  

quote:

Originally posted by Geoff P:
Because I have solutions in place for the following already
1) I don't need a CD Ripper
2) I don't need a hard Disk store
3) I don't need a pre amp or a power amp
4) I don't need network management to stream audio
5) I don't need music search or meta data and album art retrieval

I suspect that if you took the functionality you don't want out of the HDX (or UnitiServe) you'd end up with a device costing more.

Point 1) A CD ROM mechanism for ripping costs what £20-30 in bulk.
2) Both have SSD versions - so you eliminate point 2.
3) Neither HDX nor UnitiServe have pre or power amp.
4/5) If you have no network management - how are you going to choose what track to playback.
5) As I understand it, having the extended metadata means you can access your music in a more efficient way as well.

If you're comparing the functionality to (for example) the Linn DS range - all (in terms of hardware) you are paying for (with the HDX-SSD) that you don't want is a CD drive.

As for your original question "how [does] Naim plans to deal with NAS delivery[?]" I suspect the answer is you choose either
(1) UnitiServe-SSD or HDX-SSD (depending if you want digital or analogue output) and accept it includes the CD ripping functionality (which Naim seams to feel is important).
(2) You use the UnitiQute and accept it has inbuilt pre & power amp along side it's digital and analogue output.
(3) You use a computer or 3rd-party streamer.

Personally if you want an all Naim system I can't see why having a CD drive you're not going to use makes the UnitiServe a bad system.

Eloise

A streamer with an onboard dac seems more a more naim like solution to me. Historically didn't Julian Ver. point out that shortening the route to the dac is best, hence no digital out on those cd players...?

Having excess products go waste seems a bad idea to me, not naim like either...

Surely if musical data exists somewhere on my network (or indeed anywhere online) it should be possible to get it to the Naim DAC without first having to convert it to s/pdif?

quote:

4/5) If you have no network management - how are you going to choose what track to playback.
5) As I understand it, having the extended metadata means you can access your music in a more efficient way as well.

Eloise
I did not give detail so fair comment....but I have comprehensive Network Management thru' my network storage which runs Windows Home Server and I can rip direct to the HDDs on this server with eror correction thru' RipNas essentials software and a USB CD Drive without another PC being involved. I have a nice piece of control point software called Asset which serves up all the metadata and sorts the music every which way along with a bigger album art display ( window dressing but nice). I can also run this with my ipod touch if I want from anywhere in the house.

quote:

(1) UnitiServe-SSD or HDX-SSD (depending if you want digital or analogue output) and accept it includes the CD ripping functionality (which Naim seams to feel is important).
(2) You use the UnitiQute and accept it has inbuilt pre & power amp along side it's digital and analogue output.
(3) You use a computer or 3rd-party streamer.

1) Not only includes the cost of added electronics and noise possibilities associated with the ripping drive etc. I also don't need the added cost of SSD and its implementation when firmware can deal with the more straightforward tasks of a pure DAC.
2) I don't want to prejudge but I would suspect the cost element of the UnitiQute being spread across all its circuits and hardware ( pre amp + power amp)would mean it is unlikely to have as good a DAC as I can get as a standalone device for the same money. I would rather invest in that way than invest in unwanted and unused complexity at the sacrifice of ultimate DAC performance which is why the interest in the nDAC only.
3) No way am I planning to put my carefully ripped CD music through unnecessary extra process as in a PC or 3rd party streamer if I can stream direct to the DAC and acheive the least polluted musical pathway.

Now..I know that is just my point of view and since I am OK about not having a totally Naim system I can explore alternative hardware. I do think however that Naim is missing a big trick by not offering direct network streaming as a possibility on the nDAC.

thanks for the helpfull input and suggestions.

regards
Geoff

quote:

Originally posted by Geoff P:
Now..I know that is just my point of view and thanks for the helpfull input and suggestions.

Sounds like you are unwilling to compromise and want something few other people want...

You comments about 3 are just (to my mind) impossible - you need some form of streamer to take data from the NAS (be it Linux, WHS or whatever based) and connect it to the DAC. Now in the case of the Linn DS the streamer and DAC is in one box ... but thats how Linn designed their system. With Naim you're going to need another box!

The way I see it - there are lots of ways to achieve HiFi / Audio Nirvana, some Naim produce, for others you have to look elsewhere. You can decide to compromise on your own "wants" with Naim, or take your pick of the other products.

Eloise

quote:

I would like to get some insight into how Naim plans to deal with NAS delivery aswell, especially since there is no way to deliver audio to the nDAC direct from a NAS over a network.

A NAS is just what it says it is - a box with some discs in it that you can stick on a network - its advantages are that it may reside some distance from the computer that wants to use it and more than one computer can use it. In industry NAS has mostly given way to SAN. A NAS is not designed to connect to a DAC and IMHO it would be huge step backwards if Naim stuck an Ethernet port on the DAC and all the TCP/IP garbage that goes with - this garbage is best relegated to music server such as the UnitiServe where it can be kept well out the way. Naim has chosen to engineer a S/PDIF interface between its server and the DAC - we'll all have our preferences, but it is how you do it rather than which system you use. I'm not convinced Firewire has any technical advantage over USB and certainly none over S/PDIF or BlueTooth; however the proof is always in the listening not theory or measurement. So I think it's the NAS manufacturer's job to put a friendly non-Ethernet interface on its NAS rather than Naim's problem to deal with Ethernet/IP (not exactly a milestone in networking history, but as a lowest common denominator, it has become a de facto standard). However, Naim has developed an all-in-one solution that delivers music from hard disks directly or network attached storage to its DAC and put in another box that can be kept well away from the DAC.

The SB touch is another way to do this and any computer Mac, Linux or something else can be used. The VortexBox is a NAS/Music Server in one box.

quote:

Now in the case of the Linn DS the streamer and DAC is in one box

Bit like the UnitQute, which has some amplifiers too and sounds better to me than any Linn DS device I've heard (never heard the uber-expensive Klimax though).

quote:

You comments about 3 are just (to my mind) impossible - you need some form of streamer to take data from the NAS (be it Linux, WHS or whatever based) and connect it to the DAC. Now in the case of the Linn DS the streamer and DAC is in one box ... but thats how Linn designed their system. With Naim you're going to need another box!

Indeed correct. Somewhere in the process you have to reclock the stream regardless of whether it commes down a network cable or thru' SPDIF. Both Naim and Linn have their own way of acheiving this and they both do it at the DAC which is why I liked the idea of having the streamer intimately connected to the DAC.

regards
Geoff

quote:

In industry NAS has mostly given way to SAN

To be exact I have a SAN running with server management software there is no requirement for that function at the stream conversion / DAC end in my setup. If I wanted SPDIF ( which has its drawbacks aswell - see above) to feed a DAC I could do that with a simple converter and certainly don't need all the other stuff built into for example the unitiserve which I already have in principle.

However as you say it is how the audio sounds that matters and that's where we are all individuals. I am also looking at PS Audio as well as Linn.

regards
geoff

As you

It's avalue assessment. If the Unitiserve and DAC sound better to you, then go for it. If not, don't but the extras wont harm performance when not in use.

quote:

Originally posted by Geoff P:
and certainly don't need all the other stuff built into for example the unitiserve which I already have in principle.

That's where I disagree. If you had a DAC with an ethernet port, you'd need something in it to run the network stack, you'd need the "player" that would interface with your SAN and be able to pull off the data using known protocols, you'd need some form of control software that understood your "remote" control commands (however they were being generated) - and those are the things I can think of off the top of my head.

That's generally already available pretty widely - it's called a PC

quote:

If you had a DAC with an ethernet port, you'd need something in it to run the network stack, you'd need the "player" that would interface with your SAN and be able to pull off the data using known protocols, you'd need some form of control software that understood your "remote" control commands (however they were being generated)

I agree and I wouldn't want that in my nice Naim DAC.

ATB Rotf

Definitely not part of the RJ45 appreciation society - probably the worst connector ever.

Bring back BNC.

Anybody know of a good BT to S/PDIF converter?

quote:

Originally posted by Geoff P:

quote:

In industry NAS has mostly given way to SAN

To be exact I have a SAN running with server management software there is no requirement for that function at the stream conversion / DAC end in my setup. If I wanted SPDIF ( which has its drawbacks aswell - see above) to feed a DAC I could do that with a simple converter and certainly don't need all the other stuff built into for example the unitiserve which I already have in principle.

Sorry Geoff but I think you said you have a computer running Windows Home server and Asset? That isn't a SAN.

I'm not sure I would agree with ROTF that NAS devices have given way to SAN devices - they are two different things for different purposes.

A NAS is a dedicated server which supplies files, etc. directly to a client. Generally this is serving files to a computer via SMB, NFS or AFP, but equally can (these days) be FLAC, etc. via UPnP AV protocols. In fact a NAS is not much different from a Netware or Windows Server except for the lack of user control / management in most.

A SAN is a drive, or series of drives in an array that communicates to a Server which in turn supplies data to the end client. Traditionally a SAN was connected to the server via Fiber Channel interface but in recent years IP technologies over ethernet have become more common including iSCSI.

Some "enterprise" level NAS devices cross over into being SANs by virtue of implementing iSCSI and similar.

Eloise

quote:

If I wanted SPDIF

I did wonder why Naim didn't include I2S, but there is probably a good reason.

Geoff what you specifically want seems to be more complicated than whats already on offer.

Ethernet is a protocol as you will know for the transfer of data, what ever that data is. Sent in packets.

A device at the other end is going to have to be in part a streamer and in part a dac. This is already on offer from 50 quid up to many thousands of pounds.

You seems to have associated the ethernet cable as being a nice clean pure direct route to a speaker. Well plugging it into a speaker ain't gonna sound great

quote:

Originally posted by ROTF:

quote:

If I wanted SPDIF

I did wonder why Naim didn't include I2S, but there is probably a good reason.

Who has a CD player that outputs anything but SPDIF? Anything else and your into more esoteric computer cards.

Perhaps that's how Naim will implement their reference streamer - clocked by the DAC to a PC in a separate box with a custom interface card...

quote:

Originally posted by ROTF:

quote:

If I wanted SPDIF

I did wonder why Naim didn't include I2S, but there is probably a good reason.

Because they wanted you to be able to have your transport more than a few CM away from the DAC and have bendy cables!! i2s is designed to go from chip to chip on a circuit board with precisely the same length tracks. Yes some companies make it work externally, but it's better not used this way.

Eloise

quote:

Originally posted by ROTF:

quote:

If I wanted SPDIF

I did wonder why Naim didn't include I2S, but there is probably a good reason.

Doh! Of course... The answer is that I2S carries no metadata about the data being transmitted other than left/right. This means that if you want to build a system, you either have to have the DAC know what data rate to ask the source for (DAC = master) so there needs to be a negotiation with the source or if you use the source as master, you are completely slaved to the source clock "goodness". I.e. it will only work in a known closed loop system.

Thanks Eloise, Andy - I knew there was a good reason - a couple of companies had hyped this as the ultimate.

@Geoff P

I can't help feeling that your requirements would be best served by a Linn DS. Have you heard one?

I think the idea of having the streamer/DAC in one box has some benefits - a bit like the CD555 doesn't have a dig.out for a separate DAC. There are some good reasons, I am sure.

By having everything in one box, you aren't constrained by external 'standards' like S/PDIF or AES/EBU, and can happily upsample to suit your chosen DAC chip?

PS: Not an expert, so happy to be shot down in flames by those that know better

Cheers
John