Possibly a greater debate; NEAT Critique vs. Round-Earth Champion
Posted by: onlythat on 09 November 2002
Alright. I've had the Critiques on courteous demo/purchase from Whetstone audio-- NAIMGAIM's own venue. CDX/72/HI/140. Sound Org rack. Atacama speaker stands. My currently owned speakers are the much vaunted and prayed to and referenced (in roundville) by UHF Magazine etc.. Reference 3a MM De Capo i's.
In brief: (incidentally, Willie Nelson's Teatro album was used for like 2/3rds of the comparison cause I love this disc immensely). Fat italian men (and women) were used for the other 2/3rds. (OK--- with the exception of one swede and one fat italian man who's possibly a woman-- damned countertenors).
The Neats--- were quite a different animal on hook-up. I expected this. I had petite 3's a while back on dem though and with apologies to Top Cat, it was all boom and tizz for me. The critique is NOT a boom tizz speaker. It was instantly more fun than the Round Boys and the bass was quick and punchy (wow-- that was a switch). Voices are nice and clear-- and you get into the music. I mean, i am mainly a classical/opera guy and Pavarotti doesnt, sound as neutral as on a spendor, but then, I was still awake after a few tracks to continue evaluating, lucky for you. These Critiques can be used fairly (maybe 15 inches or so) close to a wall, but mine (err... Brian's) are like 24 inches or so out. Toe in is to your taste-- with minimal recommended. Mine are currently without it. In short, the Critiques got groove all over the Exalted Roundies and go lower and tighter in the bass and are not quite as "neutral" with big fat italian men.
The ROUNDIES-- Very Round. In many ways-- especially the bass. TONY L (and you know who you are) is RIGHT. I immediately heard-- the PORT after re-hooking up the Roundies. [That is why someone else will very soon be hooking up these same Roundies.... in their equally exalted Conrad-Johnson system or whatever after I take a huge monetary loss of course]. Also, they are softies with rim shots/guitar licks etc. Perfect for fat Conrad and Johnson roundies in their easy chairs. On the plus side-- they sound more neutral with opera and have a bigger soundstage and scale and they..... well that's about all, actually. They are not much fun after Neats. Even my girlfriend didnt feel like dancing to her favorite song when she came over and the Roundies were in session. And what the hell else do you need to know if your cutie wont dance?
Conclusion: Listen to Tony Lonorgan and to your mother. (oh-- and to your cutie)
I have a pair of older Rega Elas coming to the house this week (they were cheap-- i was young-- it was Paris...). And if I dont LOOOVE them, I will likely buy a pair of Mystiques from Brian to get away from speaker stand land. Hopefully it will stop there, but somehow......
Posted on: 09 November 2002 by Mike Sae
Interesting read. How did you manage to borrow a pair from Brian when he's in Texas?
It's great how Neat are able to engineer that ported sound out of their speakers.
Let us know how the Elas turn out.
Posted on: 09 November 2002 by onlythat
Mike, is that I now live in Arkansas (Little Rock) and he is right near by (sort of). So they are on extended demo. Brian is a pleasure to deal with and Whetstone Audio is a store with its priorities in the right place. (In fact, he is so un-audiophiley he unnerves me-- talk about soundstaging or something damn it!)
Mike, you are a good man's opinion to get on a question I have bothered both Bob Surgeoner and Brian about.
It is whether or not to go for the Mystique 2. I love the sound of the Critique and dont want to risk getting the Mystique and having a different sound (less enjoyable, etc..)
You know, i didnt like the Petites and they are a "higher" NEAT. So maybe I wont like the Mystique. Have you had a chance to compare both? Bob S. said he felt the Mystiques were a touch more laid back sounding and Brian said he thought they didnt offer much more bass-- just a bit fuller sound and the added benefit of no stand hassles.
So why not just keep the Critiques if I like em so much and not worry about Mystiques?
Cause then I'd have to go find another hobby-- they'd drive me out.
Posted on: 09 November 2002 by Mike Sae
Hmmm, I've only heard the Critique at the end of a wierd Arcam/Crimson system- for all of 10 seconds- so I can't really offer a comparison.
My understanding is that the Mystique is more of an alternative to the Critique for those who require more volume. I think the Petite/Elite are "higher" in that they prefer more upstream than we have, whereas the Critique/Mystique are an excellent match for our level of kit. The trick is choosing the one that works best in your enviroment.
If you felt the Critique worked
perfectly in your room, I wouldn't tempt fate
What made you try Neats a 2nd time after your experience w/ the Petites?
Posted on: 09 November 2002 by onlythat
I just wasn't getting on with my NAIM gear and the Round -earth speakers. I bought them because they had incredible reviews. I mean every damned reviewer BOUGHT the review pair etc. Soooo... I figured how bad can they be? I mean, one reviewer's opinion-- who cares? Even two. But when like 3-4 all buy the review pair something must be going right-- RIGHT?
And I am sure it is. Just not with my system in my room. When you hook em up, you notice immediately that the sound is bigger and more effortless than th smaller Critiques-- but that's it. I am sure with the reviewers mix and match systems they can be made to sound amazing. But mainly they are an imaging speaker-- above all, I think.
The Mystiques are very well thought of in these parts, so I got curious. Then I called Brian and he had a pair of Critique pros lying AROUND-- SO i SAID WHY NOT. I had heard that these were more "neutral" than the Elite and Petite, so I went for it.
Happy I did. Now that I have them set against a SUPPORT wall (very important upgrade!!), they are quite astonishing really. They just flow and groove, as you say. now I need the Kudos 24 inch stands I guess, as mine are too high at 28 inches. Then I'll just enjoy for a while. I hope!
David
Posted on: 09 November 2002 by onlythat
See above.
Posted on: 09 November 2002 by Mike Sae
David,
I've never heard the DeCapos, but from what I read I got the impression that this was a rare speaker that could satisfy all tastes. Apparently not. There was always something fishy about its high sensitivity... Surely no speaker that's such an easy load could properly "do flat"
James,
quote:
reflex speakers will never have the transient response (in the bass) of sealed box systems because of the group delay characteristics of 4th order roll-off.
I'm unable to get into the specifics, but it depends on the sealed box in question, no?
IMHO, the AR3 series, Spendor 3/5 and Linn Ninka are no quicker than various holed Neats, Royds and Regas. Not by a long shot.
quote:
Hence, if speed is your priority, sealed infinite baffle or acoustic suspension is the only way to go.
You're probably right- theoretically if one wanted to set world speed records, IB is the way to go. But what impresses me are "fast" speakers that are also easy loads.
[This message was edited by Mike Sae on SUNDAY 10 November 2002 at 07:44.]
Posted on: 10 November 2002 by Manu
I've been very impressed by a speaker having a Qtc of .5555666875423648.
Sorry, James, i couldn't resist.
Emmanuel
All opinions are my own, and reflect those of the organisation i work for, even if not stipulated.
Posted on: 11 November 2002 by onlythat
I posted some wonderful things about the Reference 3A previously Mike (which may be i part where you heard them), because I believed them until I heard the NEATs.
Guess I just didn't understand the real differences between tight bass/speed and, well, whatever it is that the 3A does. Dont get me wrong-- in many areas they ARE excellent speakers.
They just dont have the PRaT the NEAT does (which, in the past, I was talking about like I knew what I was talking about). I thought I did. The NEATS just showed me I didn't.
Posted on: 11 November 2002 by Top Cat
quote:
I had petite 3's a while back on dem though and with apologies to Top Cat, it was all boom and tizz for me.
Interesting. If anything I'd say that on a poorly setup system (as mine has been on the odd occasion whilst I've been trying various things out - such as daft positioning or whatever) the Petites can sound a bit one-noted in the bass and if your source sucks you'll get rather too much treble - it's an informative speaker, capable of a lot of detail which can reveal problems further upstream.
So, I can see where you're coming from - however, your system should be more than capable of doing Petites properly, or at least competently. The CDX is decent enough, as I know having had fine results with one in the past. I had a quick peek at your post and you mention the speaker stands and rack, which might be a problem (remember, these speakers are much more revealing than their little siblings). Otherwise, what speaker wire are you using? Petites get on fine with NAC-A5 (though it robs a bit off the treble and adds a bit of bloat to the bass) and they absolutely HATE Chord speaker cable (whilst mine is getting reterminated I am suffering the hell that is Carnival - yuk, it's lumpy, imprecise, vague and harsh, all at the same time...)
The thing is, I have discovered that with Petites, as with many more expensive items of hifi, there has to be a greater commitment from the owner to take care over setup, lest the component fails to deliver. It's the same with turntables, amps, even stands. However, if you had got the Petite setup properly (or matched with the right balance of source (which you have), amps (ditto), stands (debatable) and wires (??) you would have found it to utterly outclass it's wee sister...
TC '..'"
Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."
Posted on: 11 November 2002 by Mike Sae
David said,
quote:
...which, in the past, I was talking about like I knew what I was talking about
No worries,
everyone here has written bollocks in the past.
TC, I believe David was using Petites in his pre-Naim days. Besides, whatever happened that
Mr. NoWayWillPetitesWorkWitha140 bloke
Posted on: 12 November 2002 by Top Cat
Good question:
quote:
whatever happened that Mr. NoWayWillPetitesWorkWitha140 bloke
Easy one to explain. When I first got the Nait-2, I tried the Petites with a Linn Basik source and also a no-name cd player that was kicking about. Whilst things were listenable, it wasn't 'blow you away' time by any means and it sounded like the Nait-2 was struggling with the bass. More recently, during a protracted house move, I spent four months or so slumming it in a flat with my Neats and the Nait (the main system was largely boxed up in storage during this time).
Having tried my own TT and also having spent much more time sorting the positioning out (i.e. taking my own medicine) I discovered that the Nait-2 is capable of doing Petites to an adequate, nay, a competent degree. Sure, it's not a match for my main system but it does the basics far better than I'd first anticipated. A lot of this was clearly not a limitation of the Nait but of the source (a Linn Basik with K9 isn't exactly the last word in source-first ideology).
The lumpy bass was still evident, and that addictive 'presence' which the Petites can do (and if you've heard it you'll know
exactly what I mean) was absent, but the PRaT was basically there and it was one of those 'settled' combinations whereby the system achieved most of what it attempted with grace and aplomb...
NAC-A5 isn't the best cable for Petites, but it probably
is the best cable for the Nait-2, and as such was the cable I ultimately settled on - providing, as it does, a little extra bloom in the upper bass which the slightly lean response of the nekkid Petite benefits from. Sure, it's a rolled off cable and the Petite is most impressive in the treble IMHO, but it was a synergistic combination.
Having said that, substituting Nordost SPM was better in every way, but then let's look at the economic lunacy of advocating such a combination. NACA5=£7/m ish, SPM=£600+/m ish. Of course, I didn't pay anything like that sort of dough for mine, but it's still a stupid thing to expect the NAC-A5 to really do SPM tight bass, dynamic instancy, timing resolution or transparency - but the NAC-A5 still sounded great in this combo.
In summary: Nait-2:A5:Petite III rocks, and s/h you could run this back-end for around £750 (i.e. £200, £550), and blow most any other £750 combination into the weeds...
Add the Gravitas and a spot of Mana to go under the assemblage and you're in the big league - and what's more, the Petite with Gravitas is an easier load than without the Gravitas - 88db,8ohms versus 86db,4ohms. With the custom Mana bases I reckon it jumps to 90db,8ohms - increased transient response and other such technobabble...
TC '..'"
Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."
Posted on: 12 November 2002 by Top Cat
quote:
I posted a question to you on the pink fish site re petites....did you get a chance to look?
Not yet - last couple of times I looked the site was down. What's the URL again, by the way?
TC '..'"
Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."
Posted on: 12 November 2002 by onlythat
I got the Petites for demo in my "pre-NAIM" days. However, i did ultimately get to use them with a NAIT 3 at home with cd 3.5 AND I brought them in to my local NAIM store for a dem against LINN Ninkas and Katans and Credos and Intro 2's.
It was a full 5 NAIM system with FC2 and my CDX (which was there for voltage conversion).
In that room with that equipment, the Petites sounded like one note bass speakers with a thin and shrill high-end. (well maybe not shrill-- just thin). We moved them around quite a bit, as I did at home, and no matter what-- They were just not too listenable.
The Katan on the other hand sounded tonally on and was quite quick. I didnt like the sound of the credo or intro 2-- too "boxy" for my taste. The Ninka sounded good too-- good timing and nice extension.
But the Petites just did not sound, well, RIGHT, as I recall prompting the guy in the store to exclaim about them, "of all of the speakers I have heard, the Petites are now definitely--- one of them."
They must be better than this though, or guys like you wouldnt use 'em with such good gear, so maybe they were defective or something??
Cause the Critiques share just about NONE of those inaccuracies. It sounds MUCH better-- in fact, phenomenal. you cant tell me this difference is only the front end or something. It is a huge difference.
By the way Top Cat, any experience with Mystiques vs. Critiques? Thanks.
David
Posted on: 12 November 2002 by Top Cat
Heard both Mystiques and Critiques (albeit not at the same time) and they are both competent speakers, but by the time I heard them I already had my Petites and I wouldn't change
TC '..'"
Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."
Posted on: 12 November 2002 by Top Cat
quote:
maybe they were defective or something
I have to admit to being puzzled. I mean, sure, setup will bring out the best in them but I don't think of them as fussy speakers. I wonder if maybe the pair you heard was indeed defective, as the one thing the Petite isn't is a harsh, one-noted speaker - but I am also equally sure about is that it is possible that something about the system that was used wasn't synergistic with the speakers. However, given that our ancient Nait-2 delivers the goods it makes me wonder about the pair you heard. Just nip over to the PF forum (which I have re-discovered again) and see Herman, the Mana guy, as he seems quite pleased with the Continentals, which I take to be similar to the Petites...
TC '..'"
Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."
Posted on: 13 November 2002 by Muzza
Much is written. The Petite it appears lines up at a hefty GBP800 odd, while it appears the Critique is a slender ( by comparison ) GBP440 ?
This is a significant difference. How does that difference manifest itself ?
So my NAIT 3 and CD3.5 would be better targeted at Critique as the Petite requies better/stronger source ? From a pure price point the Critique would fill a price gap here in NZ, here you can by lots of stand mounts upto say NZ$1000 ( GBP330 )then there is a big jump to the next level - over $2000 ( GBP660 ). For comparison a INTRO 2 retails for NZ$3300. How does ( the very different I know ) Critique and Petite measure up to the Intro 2 ?
[This message was edited by Muzza on THURSDAY 14 November 2002 at 10:28.]
Posted on: 13 November 2002 by onlythat
I heard the Intro 2 briefly in the demo with the Petites and Katans, so it was only in that room with that (mostly NAIM entry level 5) stuff.
But in that situation, I felt the Intro 2 was quite agile, but too "boxy" for my taste.
You could tell it was too much a SPEAKER and not enough a part of the landscape, I guess you could say.
The Petites were quick and all and less boxy, but I couldnt get on with their tweeter or their tonal balance. I had this problem with the Petites in my room also.
Now the Critique, for me, is another animal entirely. It surpasses its pricier brother in most all areas in MY system in my current room, but granted I have not put the Petite side by side with it in my current setup.
I myself am deciding between it and the Mystique as I type. In favor of the Critique is the fact I have been noticing that many of the speakers we count as legendary seem to be stand mounted 2 ways. Ls3/5a, Linn Kan, Celestion sl600 and on. I think simple is best.
It just seems to be easier to design a good small speaker than a good big one.
Rega Elas (the original and supposedly "magical" incarnation of them) arrive in a day or so. As the Bard would say-- More Anon.
Posted on: 13 November 2002 by redeye
Onlythat..
A good big speaker adequately driven is much more fun than any tiny. Just go check any live music then go home to the 'High Class Miniature'...
You'll laugh or cry depending on whether you've signed the cheque yet
Posted on: 13 November 2002 by Mike Sae
Aye, a CDX/72/HI/140 into Mystiques certainly qualifies as "adequately driven". Wait a minute- can't you borrow a pair off Bryan?
It should be clear within 10 seconds which ones are more suitable.
[This message was edited by Mike Sae on THURSDAY 14 November 2002 at 08:22.]
Posted on: 14 November 2002 by Mike Sae
Muzza, I've never heard of anyone demming any Neat vs. Intros and preferring the latter...
Posted on: 14 November 2002 by Top Cat
quote:
A good big speaker adequately driven is much more fun than any tiny.
Disagree. One of the beauty of the Neat Petite is the availability of the Gravitas isobaric subwoofer-stand thingies. These add, funnily enough, gravitas and solidity to the presentation, but the basic characteristic, the musical message if you will, remains. You get 90% of this with just the Petite alone. I tend to find exactly the opposite - that a smaller speaker is more amenable to produce the positive musical message without so much excitement of room nodes due to unchecked bass. In a nutshell, I am using P with G right now, and I'm not always convinced I prefer the two together, as I have always found that:
with extra bass you have extra work to tame that bass...and almost all big speakers (but not all - ATC100s are a good example of a big speaker which copes well with big bass output) that extra bass detracts under all but the most optimal of setup environments.
quote:
Just go check any live music then go home to the 'High Class Miniature'...
I've always maintained that live music of the PA-type (i.e. rock gigs and so on) is inferior in sound quality than a quality, musically optimised hifi in a decent room. The factors are many, but mainly down to the (usually awful) acoustics of the gig venue, the extreme and often unbalanced volumes and harshness. If your system can't exceed the live gig in sonic terms (forget volume - you'll never truly compete with a 16kw rig in the domestic environment - not really) there is something wrong with your system. Contentious, I know, but that's my experience of hundreds of amplified gigs.
Sure, acoustic gigs are a different story indeed, as are places of great natural or designed-in acoustic amplification (e.g. opera halls) but compared to a PA, a competent hifi should sound more pleasant, musical and enjoyable.
The crucial difference is that the live experience is live, whereas in the home it's only a facsimile... I highlight this in bold due to the fact that a lot of folks out there will assume that the enjoyability of a gig is due to the sound, but no, it's usually because of the atmosphere, the 'intimacy', the lighting, the smell of beer'n'fags, the fat bloke who stands in front of your woman and she can't see... get the picture?
Gig=crap sound, music in the now
Home=better sound IMHO, a copy of music in the past
That's it, folks. Big speakers
can be more fun, but at a given price or performance point (say, £800, to take the Petite example forward) the standmount is normally much better from 100Hz up. The best compromise might end up being a very high quality sub and a moderately large standmount, though I've never managed to get this to work as well as a larger speaker allied to either no sub or a sub set to roll off really low, say 30Hz.
TC '..'"
Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."
Posted on: 18 November 2002 by Top Cat
quote:
We actually used the Critiques with the Crimson Pre and Stereo amp (55 watts) all using Reson speaker wire....
I actually owned Crimsons before my current amps - 200wpc 640D monoblocks and the pre - chosen in preference to comparable Naims - NAP250, NAC82 - and I was seduced by the grip and precision of the extremely powerful Crimson amps. They're very capable but if you think that they are good you must hear a DNM PA3^S based system
A 23wpc amp which seems to have more grip than a pair of 200wpc monoblocks? Bizarre.
There have been times I've questioned my rather unique path (amongst these forums anyway) - of DNM and Neat - but the PA3^S quite simply left me speechless in the way that no bit of hifi kit has ever done, except perhaps hearing an LP12 for the first time (having only previously heard a Pioneer DD turntable)... gobsmackingly good!
I don't know what amps and sources you have, but I can assure you that I suspect changing speakers would be a pity as I doubt you've extracted anywhere close to maximum performance out of them yet. Neat P/G are remarkably capable speakers, don't even consider changing until you've maxed out everything else...
TC '..'"
Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."
Posted on: 18 November 2002 by Top Cat
quote:
I agree, the Neat P / G are a lovely combo, but I have some Vitos at the shop now and it's kind of overkill. My shop is quite small, so...a killer deal for someone!
If only you were nearer, I'd be interested in a second pair - that's how good they are! But, you raise an interesting point: Is the Vito better than the Petite/Gravitas.
I'd say no. It's certainly ballsier - the Vito always struck me as a more solid sounding speaker without the finest delicacy of the Petite. I think that's a lot to do with Neat being able to optimise the small box for the Petite and the big box for the Gravitas, than to compromise with the Vito.
Vito's a cracking speaker though. Can't wait to hear the MFS, though I doubt I'll change my speakers this side of 2005, unless I suddenly come into great wealth or good fortune...
TC '..'"
Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."
Posted on: 18 November 2002 by Top Cat
quote:
I've heard the DNM amps were unreal! Crimson is kind of a DNM Series 5 evidently
MMmmmmmmmm... not really. The Crimsons are simply back-to-basics, powerful yet simple amps which can drive most anything well, and which offer a balanced package of musicality and performance.
The DNM stuff is much, much better. Different, very, but better. A different kind of presentation altogether - a bit like the best of Valve amps mixed with the best of SOlid State tempered with a supremely lively, open sound - and PRaT way better than your speakers can manage (whatever they are
). Cable dependent, though - avoid any multistranded cable and forgo even their own Reson and try some Nordost SPM if you really want to hear music in the home...
TC '..'"
Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."
Posted on: 18 November 2002 by onlythat
Top Cat, I know you LOVE your P/G combo, but objectively speaking (yeah sure), you mean to tell me you hear NOTHING untoward whatsoever in the presentation of the Petite's tweeter?
You find it absolutely right on and sweet and all that?? Just wondering, because this tweeter (or at least its implementation NEAT-wise) is what seems to draw the most criticism from non-believers on the Elite and Petite. Just wondering.
David
