Toyota woes

Calum,
Millions apparently, I'm with you though on this one.

While driving a bus in my lost youth I once rammed and concertinaed a Corolla. Looked much better.

quote:

Originally posted by Calum F:
I have to say, no sympathy for TOYOTA over the recall thing. Over the years they have become so smug it beggars belief.
As for their cars they are deadly dull to look at and drive, Avensis especially and the Auris (replacement for Corolla)
who'd want one ?

Is this the discussion extension of the Questions answered topic

A: As long there are 'deadly dull people'

I drive a Grey Volvo

There are auto recalls all the time. Why is this one such a big deal? No really, I'd like to know.
I just took my Panda back for a tweak to the airbag - just as likely to have killed me as a stuck accelerator pedal.
OK, it's an Italian car. Maybe it's expected

Cheers
john

I detect a strong whiff of 'litigationitis' in this story as it has built in the USA, and perhaps some home proctectionsim too.

Manufacturers recall vehicles all the time, it rarely makes news. Don't forget the Firestone tyres debacle in the USA either. I like the fact such a system exists and lets face it, as a rule the Jaapanese have shown the world how to engineer cars thoroughly, especially the US companies.

Cars are complex. They go wrong occasionally. They are also now engineered in ways to improve primary and secondary safety we could only have dreamed about 25 years ago.

Would not stop me buying a Toyota. I say this having just had a major fault on the Toyota engine in my Lotus!

Bruce

Bruce

I totally agree. I have a 10 year old Honda Civic that has been 100% reliable and has passed its MOT every year without exception.

The paintwork looks as good as the day it came off the production line and hence I have no intention of replacing it. Cars today offer brilliant value compared to those of yesterday.

Finally, anyone who takes delight in seeing cars of any marque being recalled needs to get a life.

It really is no big deal.

Regards

Mick

I have a degree of sympathy as I used to manage recalls for my old company - there but for the grace etc .....
But watching the - now two problems - Toyota case evolving I also get a feeling of ironic familiarity.
We had a major component supplied by a large Japanese company & I see the Toyota way of managing this as stereotypical of my experiences. Impossibly slow to react & admit "fault", only very senior people authorised to approve decisions, lower ranks not permitted to even talk about it amongst themselves. Then actually admitting fault, error or whatever is never ever done.
This was clearly seen on TV this morning when the European MD was interviewed (robustly) on BBC Breakfast. He was at great pains to make it clear the braking system was safe, but was under investigation. The issue is software, it is not faulty, its operating as designed, but in specific conditions the design can cause an unexpected problem not forseen in the design that they need to investigate. - textbook perfect.

Perhaps they get their software from the same source as other people?


As regards who is at "fault", isn't this the standard "nothing to do with me", that the motor industry (amongst others) has employed for years?
Leave it alone it will go away, until the bean counters work out the cost to the company is less than the cost of repair and compensation to those killed or injured.

Going back in time Ford Pinto fuel tanks Firestone Cavallino tyres or maybe (tires), etc.

quote:

Originally posted by Bruce Woodhouse:
Don't forget the Firestone tyres debacle in the USA either.
Bruce

Goid point - this is where the manufacturers ( or was it Ford? ) knew that a tyre was unsfae, but thought the cost to replace them was greater than the value of the lives lost. Similar story IIRC concerning fuel tanks?

In other words, corporate murder of perons unknown.

Maybe the problem also rests with the user?

There are apparently warning symptoms before any failure, a change in the feel/behaviour of the pedal, which ought to prompt the driver to get it checked.

And if the throttle does jam open (yes, it has happened to me, but not in a Toyota), once you realise what has happened you just have to take the car out of gear. Surely any driver who wishes to be considered competent is able to cope with the unexpected, such as a blowout, or a shattered windscreen? And yes, I've had those happen to me, too.

What has surpised me most is the newspaper report about a driver in the US whose throttle stuck open, killing three people. He had time to phone the emergency services and explain his problem, before he crashed. Given the time required to do this, surely he could have thought to select neutral?

Without wishing to sound callous or unfeeling (any injury or loss of life is to be regretted), is it fair to pin all the blame on Toyota, when competent operation of its products should have radically mitigated the outcomes? Is the real issue the low level of user awareness and/or competence, and the (unrealistic) expectation that an extremely complex mechanical/electronic device should never fail?

Does anyone remember that any of the smaller Austin Morris Group cars [Morris Minor, Mini, 1100, Riley, MG and Wolseley variants] powered with the "A" Series engine [with SU carbs] were prone to throttle spring failure, so that, suddenly and entirely without warning, the throttle could fully open?

It is so easy to stop anything serious resulting. Depress the clutch and turn off the ignition system. Usually it was possible to re-attatch the spring and get to the next garage where a new spring could be bought and fitted for a few shillings.

People do seem to drive with an asumption that nothing can go wrong with the car at all. Even today, no human designed system is perfectly safe. The only possible precaution is to build in "redudant" extra safety [such a double throttle spring], which reduces the chance of complete failure.

I remember when the Audi Quatro system first arrived, and people would demonstrate that you could drive round a bend faster than ever before.

It happed to me [as a passenger] and I insisted they let me out of the car.

In terms of traction four wheels are better than two putting the power down onto the road, but once none of the wheels are gripping, then two or four wheel drive makes no difference ...

ATB from George

BigH & Mike Lacey, agree all the comments, but having been on that patch of ice I can tell you the companies like those mentioned in your posts take these safety recall issues seriously & very-very professionally. Utmost care is taken & one of the consequences is what can seem like procrastination to the public. If based on US law the guilty CEO's & senior exec's are facing a potential risk of a very long prison sentences if negligence can be proven. A possible consequence is that if a definite case cannot be proven the frequent conclusion is that all the public are untitled to is (e.g.) irrespective of the damage, a replacement of a defective tyre (tire) and no admission of guilt is applied leaving the public feeling frustrated & cheated.
European law is different as it tends to aim towards correcting risks & improving standards for the future rather than nailing someone or the company But those found guilty of negligence can & are prosecuted, although the penalties bear no relevance to the cost in both human & material terms.

The classic example is the Mont Blanc tunnel fire (which I was marginally involved in)
39 people died, it cost numbers of hundreds of millions - 130m alone for the repairs
13 were found guilty
6 month jail for the French head of security
9 people were given fines or shorter or suspended prison sentences
4 companies fined for their role in the fire
Investigators found known defects existed in the truck that was the seat of the fire but the prosecutor said he concluded substantial doubt that the manufacturer could be held responsible.

GOD FORCED TO RECALL HUMANS
Sniff, Friday, February 5th, 2010 at 2:09 pm
Posted in News


Mr God, yesterday


There was bad news for God this week as the well-known deity was forced to recall thousands of examples of His popular Human Being after reports that the model could be prone to unexpected attacks of unbelievable stupidity.

Initial reports of blithering idiocy emerged from the United States last year but these were thought to be isolated incidents caused by people who are so thick that if a floormat was touching their accelerator pedal would prefer to scream ‘Aaaaaaargh’ until they drove into a river rather than simply moving the mat backwards with their foot. However, it now seems the monumental stupidity is more widespread and may cause some Human Beings to decide that the best course of action in the event of being in a car with a throttle that won’t release is to telephone someone rather than to, for example, put the fucking car into neutral and bring it to a halt using the brakes as normal.

Jesus Christ, a member of the original God family who now runs his Father’s business, is expected to make a full statement shortly. In the meantime, the Archbishop of Canterbury, a senior manager at God’s UK operation, has told reporters that there are almost certainly Human Beings here in Britain that will need to be examined for signs of being so sodding thick that they probably shouldn’t have a driving licence in the first place. “It’s too early to say how this might affect people in the UK,” Mr Canterbury is quoted as saying. “But we have every reason to believe that there are some Human Beings that may being so brain fartingly stupid that if the throttle in their car became stuck, they would never think simply to depress the clutch and coast to a halt”.

However, it is understood that God’s representatives in the UK are keen to manage any recall as quickly and efficiently as possible, thereby minimising the number of mithering suburban twats who ring in to the Jeremy Vine show on Radio 2 and witter on about how they’re too scared to drive their Yaris to such a blindingly crass degree that listeners eventually start to get a sense of what it would be like if the editor of the Daily Mail did a shit into a syringe and then used it to inject vile reactionary shit into their ears.

As God seeks to clarify the extent of the stupidity problem and establish how many Human Beings will need to be recalled, theologians have been assessing just what has caused the problem of quite extraordinarily thick behaviour in the first place. “I suspect the problem lies in the rather clever engineering God has given the Human Being,” noted Dr Peter Peter Cockandballs of St Gobain College, Oxford. “The modern Human Being is actually remarkably durable and reliable, capable of lasting well over 80 years, but among its clever systems is something called Cognitive Reasoning. Normally this works very well, but over time Human Beings get used to being spoon fed blindingly obvious information such as those signs on motorways that say ‘fog’, and eventually they can just give up trying to have any discernment or ability to think rationally. Basically, the Human Being becomes a stupid moron. Hence the popularly of ITV’s Loose Women”.



© Sniff Petrol

10/10

i am concerned

It seems every single creation by God is recalled as they all have catastrophic major component failures leading to theyre destruction .

Even his Son was recalled.

No wonder humans have problems with what we make.

I was at a Honda dealership yesterday, servicing one of our three Hondas. A guy drove in with a practically brand new 2009 Toyota Camry with 5000 miles on it and traded it in for a new Accord. He just did not want to own a Toyota anymore.

Could be a good time to get a nearly new Toyota very cheap. Then let it get recalled and sell after a few months when prices recover.

If you want a fun relaible car. Buy a Mazda RX8. Ive had one for two years, totally reliable, drinks petrol for fun and gets through 5 litres of oil a year. Drives like a dream and kicks the butt of many so called fast sports cars. Their MX5 is a blast had 4 of thoughs over the years. Toyota doesnt make any fun cars.

Toyota is a great car company, much better than any of the european car companies.

At least you get a good service from them and they publically apologise. More than can be said than for these up themselves european trash.

Steve

quote:

Originally posted by Haim Ronen:
I was at a Honda dealership yesterday, servicing one of our three Hondas. A guy drove in with a practically brand new 2009 Toyota Camry with 5000 miles on it and traded it in for a new Accord. He just did not want to own a Toyota anymore.

And now Honda is recalling it's Jazz model.

Media hysteria feeding the paranoia of clueless people.

Everything I've driven or ridden or been flown or sailed in will have had some sort of latent defect that might just have a safety implication under a certain combination of factors.

I'll stop there just in case my laptop overheats and burns my fingers. Could happen...

quote:

Originally posted by John Bailey:

quote:

Originally posted by Haim Ronen:
I was at a Honda dealership yesterday, servicing one of our three Hondas. A guy drove in with a practically brand new 2009 Toyota Camry with 5000 miles on it and traded it in for a new Accord. He just did not want to own a Toyota anymore.

And now Honda is recalling it's Jazz model.

Media hysteria feeding the paranoia of clueless people.

Everything I've driven or ridden or been flown or sailed in will have had some sort of latent defect that might just have a safety implication under a certain combination of factors.

I'll stop there just in case my laptop overheats and burns my fingers. Could happen...

No vehicle is perfect and all car makers had at some time recalled a particular model to repair a defect or replace a faulty part.

Unfortunately, the current Toyota story is not a typical one. First, it involves a sever safety issue of uncontrolled acceleration of different models which caused tragic deaths:

http://www.justicenewsflash.co...-4_200909012035.html

http://www.justicenewsflash.co...sh_201002053256.html

You cannot blame the public for panicking over the issue. Furthermore, the way Toyota dealt with the problem, insisting at first that the only fault were the floor mats, leaves the impression that the company was far more interested in safeguarding its reputation than seriously dealing with the risky situation its customers were facing. I took also a long while before the Toyota management in the US spoke openly in publicly about the problems their cars were facing.

Now, on top of the faulty pedals and mats, we have the story of failing brakes with the Prius:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02...global/05toyota.html

To quote from the article: "The Japanese government has ordered the company to investigate the brakes on the Prius, as has the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration in Washington."

There is no question that Toyota's reputation was severely damaged and the fact that they stopped altogether selling eight of their models shows how sever the problem is and how late were they in tackling it.

Hopefully, Toyota will be able to correct soon all the faults and start restoring the public's confidence by improving its quality control of their built cars. It is very simple, when quality goes down quantity (of product sold) goes down as well.

quote:

Originally posted by dn1:
Maybe the problem also rests with the user?

There are apparently warning symptoms before any failure, a change in the feel/behaviour of the pedal, which ought to prompt the driver to get it checked.

And if the throttle does jam open (yes, it has happened to me, but not in a Toyota), once you realise what has happened you just have to take the car out of gear. Surely any driver who wishes to be considered competent is able to cope with the unexpected, such as a blowout, or a shattered windscreen? And yes, I've had those happen to me, too.

What has surpised me most is the newspaper report about a driver in the US whose throttle stuck open, killing three people. He had time to phone the emergency services and explain his problem, before he crashed. Given the time required to do this, surely he could have thought to select neutral?

Without wishing to sound callous or unfeeling (any injury or loss of life is to be regretted), is it fair to pin all the blame on Toyota, when competent operation of its products should have radically mitigated the outcomes? Is the real issue the low level of user awareness and/or competence, and the (unrealistic) expectation that an extremely complex mechanical/electronic device should never fail?

I listened to the 911 call 4 times. The gent was a cop and did behave in a calm form but, why the frick a call to 911? Neutral, or even shove it in park! As it was a loaner from a friend,he did not know how to use the start button(Hold down 3 seconds and the car will shut off). I also believe there were shift paddles and a gear shift.
Easy for me to second guess these things but, because of this, I have run through my head, dozens of times, what steps I will take if my Lexus goes on a joy ride.

It seems to me that this was the beginning of Toyota's woes. NTSB looking into all the complaints and making decisions on what will be considered an issue needing a recall. Everything will be fixed, but at a cost in lives. Reminds of the conversation I had with a gent. " It will cost less to pay out the insurance than to fix the planes."
My jaw dropped.
MN

Interesting info as regards the on/off button.
I wonder if they all work in a similar manner?

I don't drive an auto as much as a manual, can the lever be moved out of D on the move?


Personally speaking I'd rather have engineers in charge of fixing stuff rather than accountants.

quote:

Originally posted by BigH47:
Interesting info as regards the on/off button.
I wonder if they all work in a similar manner?

I don't drive an auto as much as a manual, can the lever be moved out of D on the move?


Personally speaking I'd rather have engineers in charge of fixing stuff rather than accountants.

Yes it can. I would have easily shoved that gear boxed straight into the ground.
The engineer and accountant story is as old as time.
MN