The Bristol HiFi Show

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Originally posted by Tom Alves:
Want to buy my wife?

Tom

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Yes, how much ?

Arye

Just like to pass on my opinions for what there worth.
Don't go to the Presidential suite first. It will ruin the rest of your day.
I thought the CDSIII/500/552/DBL was awesome. Having travelled a long upgrade path for the last twenty odd years I finally got my dream NAIM set up of CDSII/52/250 etc, I now have the prospect of another 20 years getting to a CDSIII/552/500, and just as I get there the buggers will bring out something even better.
From the Presidential suite I went down to the B&W dem which was very disappointing after what I had heard with NAIM. I love the Signature 800's, as long as they are attached to NAIM's, as the Classe electronics barely did them justice. I have previously heard the 800's partnered with a CDSII/52/500 and they blew me away.
The AV dem restored my faith (why did NAIM use such a poor DVD source?)in the genre. I had previously dropped into one of those non-descript sattelite/sub set-ups where the demonstrator proudly announced "thats what you can get for £250 these days" and boy did it show!
On a more positve note the Focal/JMLab room showing the Grande Utopia BE loudspeaker was sounding really good to me, if only the demonstrator could have stopped talking all through music, telling someone behind just about everything he knew on the universe and the meaning of life. Where do they get these people from.
Wison Benesch blew me away at last years show, I returned again and again to hear the sounds they were producing. This year I was left totally unmoved. Very disappointing.
Other rooms were more predictably producing what you would expect, and I probably need a good smack for going in, namely: Mission, Pioneer, Marantz, Denon. Even Chord who have impresed in the past seem to have sold out to stlye over substance.
All of the above said it was a very enjoyable day, confirming my admiration for the way NAIM systems reproduce music. Not satisfied with that they have made a real mark on the AV world too. If only they would get there act together and produce a DVD. I guess they are waiting for the next generation blue laser based systems. They may well have already missed the boat with the current technology.

How you compare the 250 300 500 depends were your normal listening point is - if you are normalised at a 250 then you can really appreciate the 300, the extra benfit one gets from the 500 is in a diminishing returns area -if your normalised at the 135s then you can differentiate between across the full range, if you are normalised at a 500 then the 300 is disappointing (this is not intened to be a patronising comment though - even if it looks like it).

When I am listening to new equipment I like to to do the downgrade back to where I have been normally listening - then I can really appreciate the upgrade - doing that at the dem would be very helpful in defining the differences.

As I said this is not meant to be a boasting comment but can be applied to any device be it cars, computers, shetland ponies versus cart horses.

Derek

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Originally posted by Don Atkinson:

As for bass problems, I didn't hear any. The 250 did a superb job. The bass sounded real. It was there, clear and deep, as it is in real life. The 300 was better. Compared to the 300, the 250 was slightly veiled. But that’s unfair on the 250 because it gives the impression that something is not quite right. This isn't the case. Compared to the 500, the 300 had slightly less control of the bass and slightly less drive and energy. But that’s unfair on the 300 because it gives the impression that something is not quite right. This isn't the case.

_See the problem ?_

The 250 costs about £2,000.
The 300 costs about £4,800
The 500 costs about £12,000

But you can't demand that the 500 be six times as good as the 250 or give six times as much pleasure. It probably does, but you can't demand it. Or that the 300 be two and a half times as good as a 250, it probably is, but you can't demand it. etc etc. Why ?

Because they are only part of a system that costs about £40,000 with the 500; £33,000 with the 300 and a cool £30,000 with a 250.

Does the 300 give a 10% improvement in enjoyment over the 250 ? By the shed load.

Does the 500 give a 33% improvement in enjoyment over the 250 ? By the bucket load.

Please don't read too much into the difference between shed-load and bucket-load, I'm sure they are both in the OED, but don't read too much into them, otherwise I shall have to use lorry-load; train-load; and ship-load............

_Naim, you have a problem._

Cheers

Don

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don, i found this analysis of yours very interesting indeed. wittingly, or unwittingly, i think you have actually SOLVED what you believe is naim's problem by putting the prices of these components in the context of a SYSTEM!!! excellent!! where were you when there were these very tiresome discussions on whether some component is N times as good as another??

when i came back from a recent business trip, my wife kissed me and the kiss was ten times as good as the one she game me the day i left

if i was to "upgrade" my system at all, which sounds absolutely grand right now, i would trade in the XPS for an XPS2.

could you isolate the influence of the cdsiii in the main naim demo?? what did you think about sl2?

enjoy

ken

Just got back from the show after a thoroughly good time. Thought the mega system was good.

We felt the 250 was a bit rough around the edges, but gave a balanced presentation. The 300 was a great deal more hi fi, but sadly not much more music & the 500 was balanced and damn near perfect. Still scratching my head over the 300…..

Thanks to the guys for another good show.

Bob

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Originally posted by J. A. Toon:
The main Dynaudio room was tremendously unimpressive.

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But did you go next door? The smaller Dynaudio room (last one before the end of the corrridor) was excellent, with CDX2, XPS2, 252, SC2, 300 (on Hutter), Contour S3.4. Vivid, powerful, gutsy, fast, textured. No "woob" or hang-on at all. Great system, in spite of tall, ported speakers working about 9" from the wall. Could have sat here all day, apart from the irritating Dynaudio rep.) In context, on that day in that location, it gave the SL2 system a serious run for its money, IMHO.

I agree to a limited extent about the Living Voice experience, but something was very strange with the timing on some of the pieces played (none of which I knew). It seemed to me as if the drummer was about a quarter beat behind, and I thought it just gave the impression of "too many boxes, too much cable, too little care".

I also liked the Creek/Epos system a lot, if you mean the Creek room with the Epos M12s (black square-tube stands) fed with Rega 3 and Creek Nait-a-like.

You must have found a different Spendor room... the one we wandered into had a slatted wall built across the end, and lot of acro-props and scaffolding supporting additional speakers for some strange "surround" type of effect -- sounded to use quite artificial, whereas the SL2s sounded mostly real, albeit with unpredictable room effects in the bass. That room is always a sod though.

It's always astonishing just how few manufacturers actually manage to play any music, and hugely gratifying when you find them.

Best;

Mark

Just a general enquiry regarding HIFI shows in general. How long do the companies have to set up the gear in the hired rooms? Do they come in a day or two before or do they have access to the rooms a week or so before? I feel that the shows I've visited over the years and the demos I've heard were nearly all compromised by equipment that was'nt run in/warmed up enough. Also equipment sited on heavy bedroom furniture and speakers totally unsuited for the room size. Smaller companies seemed affected by this the most. Perhaps this is one for the moderators to answer.

Yours in Music

Syd

Don't know for Bristol.
But here at the Montreal Festival (each year the last weekend of March) we have access to rooms on Thursday around 5 PM and the show starts on Friday at 1PM. So we have only the night to setup. Equipment is not really warmed-up the first day. The improvments from day to day are obvious.

Emmanuel

All opinions are my own, and reflect those of the organisation i work for, even if not stipulated.

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Originally posted by Richard Woo:

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What brand do you mean by MK? Is it the American company M&K (Miller & Kreisel)?

Hi Richard

yes, you guessed correct - M&K - I don't know the model, but it looked a pretty substantial unit... & it certainly moved the hotel around with some ease...

cheers!!!
chris

any body get a price on the cds3

cheers neil

Neil,


£4695!!

Regards

NB

CDS 3 is £4695, XPS2 is £2300. I make that just under £7K.

Mickey.

Any views of what a 3 to 4 year old XPS would get secondhand in the UK

Derek

I managed to get to the Bristol Hi-fi show on Friday morning.

I started of by going into the room with what I thought was the CDX2/XPS2 252/Super/250 SL2’s only to my surprise there was a CDS3 in place of the CDX2. Fantastic I thought. This is similar to the system I am thinking of purchasing except that I would have a 300 in place of the 250.

What can I say the system was something special. The clarity, the space, the dynamics of the music. Everything was there. The music just kept on coming and coming. This was probably one of the best systems I have heard.

I spent about an hour in the room listening to many different track and everything was simply stunning.

After about an hour I went for a wander to see what the other manufacturers had to offer. Living Voice, very good but not quite there. Had a good listen to the Ruark display, excellent! Very disappointed by the Wilson Besnech display and the Exposure display. Mission, as good as ever.

One demo that did stand out was the Neat’s demonstration, very good. I could have spent more time in there.

After I had listened to what I wanted to I went back to the Naim demo and immediately realised what was missing elsewhere, the musicality of the Naim system. This system was simply much better than anything else there. It gives the heart and soul of the music, where have I heard that before??

My only reservation of the Naim system was it was a little light in the bass department but nothing I couldn’t live without.

Having heard the system I want to purchase am I going to place an order, you bet I am. The only reservation I have is whether the extra for the 300 is worth it. I have heard differing report of the 300. Some say the 250 is very close to the 300, but others say the 300 is something special.

Friday in Bristol was a very enjoyable experience, sadly I have been unable to report until now due to a problem with my PC.


Regards

NB

Congratulations to naim on the show. The presidential dem with the CDS3 was by far the most engaging and musical CD based performance I have ever heard. I could have stayed in there all day. My sondek is nervous.

Not much to add on the Naim dem front, except that (like a couple of others) I preferred the Allae system to the SL2 system. It's funny how, even when you traipse round listening to complex and obviously competent systems, something like the CDX2/202/200/Allae still sounds phenomenally listenable. As does the new Headline.

The other thing I enjoyed was the new Arcam DVD-A player, which certainly sounded better and more musical than any SACD player I've heard, and does point to DVD-A as the way to go. But there is some way to go.

The little Rega system - Mira, Planet, new £250 speakers (?) sounded amazing for the money.

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Want to buy my wife?

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might I suggest you consult a tax planning accountant? You might realise considerable benifits engaing in a lease or time-share arrangement. This would have the double kicker of acheiving your desired system sooner, and not having to sell your grandmother.

Additionally, the tax write-offs available to the "purchaser" may make the deal even more attractive.

I want to know about these new rega boxes - anyone?

Rico - SM/Mullet Audio

Ken

could you isolate the influence of the cdsiii in the main naim demo?? what did you think about sl2?

The dem only used the cdsiii. I am pretty certain that it had a big influence on the overall sound.

Last year they were using a cdsii. But they were also using sl2 speakers. Now, IF we assume that the speakers are almost irrelevant (I don't subscribe to this point of view, but there are some people who seem to think this is the case) then the cdsiii made a very substantial contribution to the overall effect. But even allowing for the dbls, the cdsiii played a significant part. Its my guess, that with a cdsii, the sound would not hold together properly. I also guess that with a 52 preamp, the sound wouldn't hold together quite as well.

I have this FEELING that you need the cdsiii and the 552 to get the best out of the 250 or the 300 or the 500. I'm not sure whether the nbls would be an adequate substitute for the dbls.

Sorry, Ken, a bit waffly. The only way to figure this one out is to go to the dealers and start at the top (cdsiii/552/500/dbl) and work down. or start at the bottom and work up. Either way, once you hear the full monty, you might have difficulty living with the compromise you can afford. Take care.

Cheers

Don

don, many thanks. the "correct" upgrade path for me is probably cds3, then 552, then 300, then sl2. and fraim has been in my radar for some time. but i suspect things are not going to pan out so neatly for a variety of reasons.

good to hear you enjoyed bristol. i havent been to a hifi show in years. i hope your system still sounds acceptable after the show.

enjoy

ken

Don / Ken

I found that I only got the best out of my CDS2 when I replaced the 82 with a 52. The 82, although an excellent amp, definately restricted the CDS2

I therefore suspect that you need to buy both the 552 and the CDS3 in order to get the full effect out of both of them.

I find power amps have less of an effect but once you are at this stage, it seems sensible to go for a Nap 500.

Regards

Mick

Ken C,

i hope your system still sounds acceptable after the show

I listened to the in car cd player on the way home, so everything at home sounded fine and Mrs D was mighty relieved!!

Also I popped into Mick Parry's on Sunday evening on the way home from work and his system sounded fantastic as well. Clearly attention to detail pays big dividends.

I'm sure that a well set up Naim system pleases at every price point.

Be brave Ken, have a listen......

Cheers

Don

Mick,

I therefore suspect that you need to buy both the 552 and the CDS3 in order to get the full effect out of both of them.

I suspect I agree.

Cheers

Don

PS only 18 grand less the trade in........

I'm sure that a well set up Naim system pleases at every price point.

well put don...

Be brave Ken, have a listen......

i suspect i agree...

i am glad to hear your system at home still sounds OK.

enjoy

ken



Don[/QUOTE]