72/140 demo vs Nait-2 on Kans

Posted by: Alco on 25 May 2001

Hi folks,

Well, today was a remarkeble day.
I knew my Naim-dealer had a 72/140 for sale.

So,...today I rented a car and on this sunny afternoon I went to my naim-dealer.

I told him about the topics on this users-forum,and about my curiosity regarding the 72/140 vs my Nait-2, driving Linn Kan-ll's.

When I came in the demo-room, the 72/140 combi was already warmed up. The Kan's were placed on Sound-factory stands. (almost identical to Kan-stands)

After listening to some Lyle Lovett and Eva Cassidy I must say that I wasn't that impressed!

Sure,the 72/140 gave Eva some more room to sing and the imaging was a little more stable,
but.... I couldn't notice a more controlled,
tighter bass.
With the 140 driving the Kan's I really expected
some more control over the low-end.

So, to make it short. The improvement weren't as
big as I expected. It wasn't worth the big bucks
to me, so... I kept my Nait-2 and I bought me
a SoundFactory - Tripod Equipment stand.
(very light,very stable)

Well, So far for my report on the 72/140 demo vs Nait-2 on Kans.

Greetings,
Alco.

Posted on: 25 May 2001 by Steve B
Hi Alco,

I must say I'm a little surprised you didn't hear a bigger improvement over your Nait 2. But if you did not think it was worthwhile then good for you.

Nice one for saving all that money.

Assuming it hasn't all gone on the tripod, you'll be able to buy more music yes?

Later this year I will be comparing 102/140 agaianst my Nait 1. For £2000 I will be expecting a huge improvement. But if it does not measure up to my expectations I guess I'll have £2000 to spend on something else.

Steve.

Posted on: 25 May 2001 by Alco
Hi Steve,

Well, I'm just as surprised as you are.
I also thought the 72/140 would be a BIG improvement over the Nait-2. Especially in the low-end.

The dealer thought the 72/140 really was a big step forward,when we both listened and compared for a while. But,hey..that's pretty obvious.
He doesn't have to lay down the hard earned cash!

The only real improvement was that voices seem
to open up and get more body.
But when I hookep up the Nait-2 again,the loss wasn't all that big. The boogie-factor was still
very high and I got used to it within a minute or two.

So,yes, I sure did save me some money.(smile)
The equipment-stands is also a (small) improvement over my little pinewood table.
The sound is a little more focussed and easier
to enjoy.

So, time to buy some more music now.

Greetings,
Alco.

Posted on: 25 May 2001 by ken c
alco: i am sure i have posted about this before. a few months ago, my system had to go back to naim for service prior to going active. so in the meatime, i borrowed some equipment from grahams to go with my Kan 1's. initially this was a 42/140, and we didnt get on. the i changed the preamp to 72, and everything fell into place. the Kans started paying attention. i normally use a nait3 to drive the Kans, and i can honestly say that the 72/140 combo was a lot better musically. a lot more subtantial and believable. but of course you are talking about nait2, not nait3.

good for you saving all that money!!!

enjoy

ken

Posted on: 25 May 2001 by Alco
Hi Max,

phew,nice to see I'm not alone on this.

When I walked out of that store this afternoon,I
thought:"is there something wrong with my ears, or do my ears tell me to better spent the money on something else".

The dealer also demonstrated in a large room on high levels. The Nait didn't even start to sweat.

My own living room is much smaller and I listen
mostly at modest volume levels. (neighbours downstairs)

It's nice to save some serious money and spent it on more music,eh !?

Greetings,
Alco.

Posted on: 25 May 2001 by Alco
Hi Jeremy, (or should I say Sproggle)

btw: I guess you ment Max instead of Steve.

Don't get me wrong,the 72/140 was an improvement over the Nait,but is was much smaller then I expected. So,to me it wasn't worth all the extra $$$. Maybe,some other people would think it is worth the extra cash.

The dealer sure thought so!
but he also confessed that when I had to pay the full price,the difference wasn't all that big.
(ps: it was an old-style 140 with a new-style 72)

well, that's all folks

Greetings,
Alco

Posted on: 25 May 2001 by Top Cat
It rocks! I am convinced the Nait-2 is (pound for pound) one of the biggest bargains in hifi.

I've just bought a Linn Basik for £110 to use as my source and I expect my Basik/Nait2 to be a musical and entirely satisfying combo, even though they cost less than £300 all in.

Don't write off the Nait-2 - great machine, if it is a bit sensitive on the old volumje control with CD (!!!)

John :-)

Posted on: 27 May 2001 by Jens
I agree, the old Naim Nait's are excellent little amps. The other day I picked up my father's Nait 1 (which was my first amp back in '84) for recapping, and before sending it to the shop I hooked it into my system for a while. I was shocked how well it performed using the CDX as its primary source and Rega Elas or Epos 22s speakers. Basically, you come home from work, you put some music on (at normal listening levels), and it sounds great. The Nait very rarely ran out of headroom, and it was a great hifi on most peoples terms. When I replaced the Nait with the 82/Hicap/250 the sound got bigger, it never ran out of headroom, and everything got smoother. However, in the comparison there's no way you could say that the big amps are brilliant, whereas the Nait was crap-the differences just weren't that black and white.

To me it is confirmation of the source first rule: sure amps make a difference, but if you put a great source into a competent amp, you're going to get a great sound. Anyway, it's clear to me that if I'm going to make another addition to my hifi, it's going to be source first, which in my case means XPS (wish the buggers weren't so dear!).

Posted on: 28 May 2001 by Tony L
quote:
I agree, the old Naim Nait's are excellent little amps.

Can’t agree more. I am in the process of packing all my stuff up prior to moving to a new flat on Friday, so I have packed all my hi-fi up except the CD player, Kans and my Mana amp rack. As I have a ‘spare’ Nait waiting to go into a small studio system in a second room when I move, I thought I would just try it out for the rest of the week… it’s the first time I have fired it up. My Nait is a late Mk 1 (rev 7 mainboard, green light), and not recapped (I will get it done at some point).

I was really shocked as to how good it sounds, as I was never under the impression that a Nait could ‘do’ Kans, though it sounds far better than it has any bloody right too, and it goes surprisingly loud as well. Compared to my normal 72’d 32.5 / Hicap / 250 it lets a little less detail through, and tends to become a bit unstuck on very busy music (it looses the plot a little at the top end – though new caps should help). It also lacks that real iron grip on the bottom end that the bigger amp brings, and doesn’t appear to do much in the way of imaging, not that I care in the slightest about the latter. What it delivers is simply astounding for such a modestly specified amp, its big sounding, quite punchy, and grooves like its life depends on it.

I think the key point is that it is a fabulously balanced amp, it seems, unlike most amps at this price (or any price), to be equally competent in all areas. To be quite honest it places a real question as to the value of paying vast amounts on stuff that ok, is better, but by how much? The second hand value of my main amp is ten times more than that of my Nait, ten times batter? That’ll be that old diminishing returns chestnut…

Give it a good source and the Nait 1 / Kan II combo performs in a class that most hi-fi can only dream of. It’s a real shame I could not try my P9 as the Nait 1 is MM only. The bottom line is that it plays music. A true bargain.

Tony.

Posted on: 28 May 2001 by Alco
Hi, Jean-Christophe.

Well, I haven't got some Kan-ll's (well, I do actually,but they're not for sale!),
but....If you're interested.... my Naim dealer,where I bought my Kan-ll's a couple o'weeks ago, still have a set of original Kan-1's
for sale.

They'll cost about 250 UKP. Maybe he's willing to sent them to you.
I've heard and seen them 3 days ago on my own Nait-2. They sound marvelous.

Here's the adres:

Rinsma HiFi

tel.nr. +31 (0)513-461554
Lippenhuizen, Holland


Greetings,
Alco.

Posted on: 12 December 2003 by KENB
I have to disagree but with a couple of qualifications. On less revealing speakers like my OLD Tangents(T27 and B200 KEF)similar to KANs the difference is not as great especially if there is a separate spur.

However on my Meadowlarks my 62/140 is astounding and the NAIT2 is nice. More speed, rythem, nuance. Particularly the top end is sweeter and clearer and more complex passages with bigger scale and more instruments stay clear on the 62/140. All are the same year and not serviced. On simple vocals and guitar the nait is great and had I done the mains first I mat not have puirchased the 2/140

Worth noting is I haven't een able to part with the NAIT2 and I bought my speaker upgradewhen I only owned the NAIT. The real motivaor was that weaknesses were much more noticaable with the NAIT than with the 62/140. Now I have a HICAP and well the rest is history. So good that my blood pressure has dropped since I got them.

I would strongly recomend the 62 or 72 with 140 over a NAIT but it depends on the speakers.

Ken
Posted on: 13 December 2003 by Peter C
Ken B is right try other speakers to Kans which are bass light.

The 72/140 is a far better better performer than a Nait 2.

The Nait 2 is good. However with speakers with more Bass response than the kans the 72/140 will reveal just how much better it is.

More of everything and tag on a hicap and you have in the 72/hicap/140 one of those great amplifier combinations.

I replaced a Nait 3 with 72/140 through Kef q15 speakers for my mother. A big difference, well worth it.
Posted on: 13 December 2003 by Alco
quote:
The 72/140 is a far better better performer than a Nait 2/
I replaced a Nait 3 with 72/140 through Kef q15 speakers for my mother. A big difference, well worth it.

Well, I had a Nait-2 for a few years, and in the last year I upgraded to 72/180, and a couple of months later to a 102/180.
It was a difference, but thinking back... (yes, even at the 50% off new price I payd for the s/h 72/180)....not worth it!
(in my case that is, with quite easily driven Diapason speakers!)

When I had the 71/180 combo, I also still had the Nait-2.
A few days before I sold my beloved Nait, I hooked it up again, to compare it next to the 72/180, and imho the Nait-2 reached about 90% of the quality level of the 72/180 combo.
Ok, the 72/180 was a bit more dynamic on higher listening levels, and the highs maybe slightly smoother, but imho the Nait-2 was just as open, detailed and fast, as any pre/power combo I owned.

So, yes... the 72/140 or 72/180 is better than a Nait-2.
No doubt, but I also think that a 72/180 has poor VFM compared to the Nait!
(especially at newprice, but also at the 50% discount price I payd for my 2/h 72/180)

regards,
Alco
Posted on: 13 December 2003 by Markus S
Alco, since you're into percentages today, how much better is your new amp than the 72/180?
Posted on: 13 December 2003 by jpk73
I compared 72/140 against a recently recapped 42.5/90 in a CD3.5/Kan-System and to my ears the difference was quite conspicuous.

- Jun
Posted on: 13 December 2003 by Alco
quote:
Alco, since you're into percentages today, how much better is your new amp than the 72/180?

Hi Markus,

Hmm tuff one... Roll Eyes
Actually I don't like explaining things in percentages, but I didn't know another way...

Well, my Sonneteer vs 72/180 (or 102/180) is not that much a matter of better or worse, but I'd like to say that the Sonneteer gives a more different presentation of the music.

The Sonneteer has the same PRaT that my Naim kit had, but it's the mids an highs that are different.
The mids are a bit more open, natural and...damn, it's hard to find the right words sometimes.
The music is more naturally flowing, and the whole soundstage seems to be bigger and deeper.

The highs are very clean and sparkling, yet also with a warm glow.

To make a long story short(er):
Imho Naim amps sound a little more direct.
Sonneteer amps (at least the Campion an Alabaster) sound more natural.
(voices and instruments seem to hold more of their natural timbre)

But don't get me wrong. If Sonneteer didn't excist, I'd still be very happy with any of the previous Naim amps I used! Smile

It's just that the Sonneteer gives a different presentation, that I prefer, and I had the chance to get into Sonneteer without extra costs.

that's all,

regards,
Alco
Posted on: 13 December 2003 by Markus S
That sounds extremely diplomatic ...
Posted on: 13 December 2003 by Alco
quote:
That sounds extremely diplomatic.

Ya think so, Markus... Roll Eyes

How 'bout this then:
All in all, the Sonneteer sounds more involving then the Naim 72/180 I used.
that's about it actually...

regards,
Alco

[This message was edited by Alco on SATURDAY 13 December 2003 at 20:43.]
Posted on: 14 December 2003 by Markus S
Sorry, I didn't want to come across as pushy.
Posted on: 14 December 2003 by Alco
quote:
Sorry, I didn't want to come across as pushy.

You didn't Markus Smile

It's just me, I always use many words to explain something, that actually can be told in a few words... Big Grin

regards,
Alco
Posted on: 14 December 2003 by Markus S
Smile
Posted on: 15 December 2003 by Erik (DK)
Top Cat wrote: "A recap wasn't expensive"

I just had a quote from Music Line in Germany: 389 Euro for Nait 2 recap. Is it more expensive over here, or do you considder that cheap?

Best regards
Erik
Posted on: 16 December 2003 by Top Cat
Mine cost around £40 or £50, including a new Naim power chord, new light fitting (for the logo), re-capping, adjustment and a generally good cleaning. That was via a Naim authorised dealer. I thought it was surprisingly inexpensive for the improvement that it brought.

Then again, I was spending £2k+ on a new style Armageddon, Cirkus kit and a Lyra Helikon at the same time, so perhaps he did the Nait for 'the cost of the bits'?

John

TC '..'
"Sun went down in honey. Moon came up in wine. Stars were spinnin' dizzy, Lord, the band kept us so busy we forgot about the time."
Posted on: 17 December 2003 by BLT
I'm a bit surprised, I demod the NAIT-2 in the 1980's, it was defintely better than any of the main competitors - Mission, Audiolab, Musical Fidelity etc, but when my dealer swapped the NAIT for a 42-5 & 140 the music suddenly came to life. The bass was much tighter. This may have had something to do with my speakers (Rogers LS1's) but the difference was very obvious.
Posted on: 17 December 2003 by Robbie
A nait-2, good as it is on is own, can never be as good as a naim pre/power.The nait has it's charms but, as BLT already pointed out, a pre/power will give better bass.It's a cracking little amp though.

Rob.
Posted on: 17 December 2003 by blythe
Around 1988, I bought a new pair of Kan II's and a Nait 2. All brand new. The sound was fantastic.
However, after auditioning a 72 pre and a 140 power amp only a matter of weeks later, I was so impressed, i went out and bought the 72/140. I'd only had the Nait for a matter of weeks but the difference was so great I HAD TO change!
I am suprised to read that this wasn't you experience.
Perhaps the Kan's need new Caps or something?

Back to when these items were new, the 72/140 was a BIG improvement over the Nait 2 (which was great in it's own right!)

Computers are supposed to work on 1's and 0's - in other words "Yes" or "No" - why does mine frequently say "Maybe"?......