Hi-Fi + on Linn LP12

See item posted yesterday evening on this subject entitled 'LP12'
Terry

There will always upgrades possible to cartridges, supports, phono stages, record cleaners etc, so don't worry. It's more than likely that all of these will have been developed or tested first using an LP12. The fact remains that the best practical thing to spin vinyl is around 1000GBP, a lot less s/h. Things could be a lot worse! Although you can't spend the thousands of pounds/dollars/euros on the TT, you can always spend them on the true source (more records).

Jeremy

In my opinion, I have upgraded from an LP12. My LP12 was an afromosia LP12 (1990 vintage) with Lingo, Aro and ESCo rebuilt Asaka, all on a Mana wallshelf at phase 7 or 8 (I forget). This deck really kicked ass, but sadly due to crumbly walls and a bit of bad judgement on my part the Mana and LP12 one day came away from the wall, ruining my deck.

Luckily, insurance came to the rescue and I was in the unusual position of having to buy a new deck - secondhand was not an option as my insurance company would deal directly with the dealer - and the replacement value came out at £3800. A lot of dough, you'll agree.

Anyway, at £1500 there isn't much to touch an LP12, but given the exorbitant new prices of said deck, it's now in a different league, populated with some eclectic and unusual designs.

What I found was that excellent though the LP12/Aro is, it doesn't represent the best value at its new price, and there are decks which can equal and in some cases better it for less (new prices, again). I auditioned a few contemporary decks - Xerxes, P9, Gyrodec with SME IV, etc. - and found that the LP12 is still up there with the best, but not necessarily taking top honours. In my search, I did stumble upon a deck which sounded much more alive and musical to my ears, albeit with great reluctance (as I was prejudiced against it in favour of the Rega P9 based upon looks and what I'd read about the P9 on this forum). It was also £1000 cheaper than the new LP12 assemblage would have cost.

The truth of the matter was that the Clearaudio Evolution, with its tangential tonearm, shouldn't have sounded as good as it did. I was quite simply blown away, although my own deck needed some time and adjustment before I managed to get the full performance out of it.

It's a different sound to an LP12 - faster, a bit more even-handed and with much greater detail. In terms of PRaT, it's probably only slightly ahead, and this may be due to the superior cartridge my new deck has. However, in terms of the spread between the 'best of the two earths', I found it a much easier deck to live with - musically on the ball, dynamically accurate and with the most stable tonality I have heard from any deck.

Sure, not everyone's cup of tea - it has an inherent leanness in the midbass as compared to an LP12, even with that deck at Phase 7/8 on Mana. It is ruthlessly revealing of any flaws in your vinyl, necessitating a good vinyl cleanliness regime, and it took a long, long, long time to get setup 'just so' (I suspect that I still have further tweaks to improve it even more).

On the plus side, it is the quietest deck I have heard. At volume levels set too loud for normal conversation, on a clean LP there is no audible vinyl noise (ask Steven Toy about this) and the tangential arm, although at risk of sounding a little bit too accurate, is a superb tracker of any disc. Lastly, it's not that a difficult deck to adjust, as the arm has so many adjustments which allow azimuth, vta, etc. etc. to be changed without unnecessarily upsetting other parameters - difficult to describe, but easy to demonstrate.

I know I've rambled on about this, but I do believe that there are decks out there beyond the LP12. However, at secondhand prices of sub £400 there is NOTHING to touch a well setup LP12. However, I've heard LP12s with Ittoks sound worse than the Linn Basik I have as a backup TT - so setup is just as crucial with the LP12 as it is with any deck.

One needs to ask the question: do I want to buy my deck new? If the answer is yes, you need to accept that at new prices Linn has pushed the deck into the big league, and in some ways it doesn't shine quite so brightly in its company. However, secondhand prices are relatively low (due to the numbers around and the longevity of the deck) so if you're prepared (or able) to buy secondhand, then an LP12/Aro/Armageddon can be had for £1500 if you are prepared to look around. I saw one for £1300 a while back, so they do come up.

TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."

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What I found was that excellent though the LP12/Aro is, it doesn't represent the best value at its new price, and there are decks which can equal and in some cases better it for less (new prices, again). I auditioned a few contemporary decks - Xerxes, P9, Gyrodec with SME IV, etc.

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TC, I can't agree with this. IMHO nothing comes close to an Fully Naimed LP12 in overall musicality, the Lingo is a divergence in my view.

I have heard the Xerxes X/SME V, Gyro/SME V and the P9 and owned the Phonosophie and Well Tempered. I found that unless you live with a record player for a while in your room with your system first impressions can be a bit misleading.

regards, Dev

What really annoyed me about the Hi-Fi + article was the basic hypocrisy behind it. Audio Journalist always whinge about the LP12 not being neutral but when Linn takes steps to address this, successfully in my opinion, they bemoan it's loss of character and yearn for the good old days! In short with journalists you just can't win! Hi-Fi world recently tested the LP12 against it's peers and it came out very well but turn to their buying guide and quotes are contrary to say the least! I love my LP12 and have invested many £££'s in it, the only way I can see it being replaced is if it gets damaged.

quote:

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How do you reconcile:
"It is ruthlessly revealing of any flaws in your vinyl" ...with:
"it is the quietest deck I have heard"

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Easily. By reading the text correctly. I quote:

quote:

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On the plus side, it is the quietest deck I have heard. At volume levels set too loud for normal conversation, on a clean LP there is no audible vinyl noise

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...so what I was saying was that with good vinyl it is utterly silent. If you'd read it carefully you'd have seen that. Good point to pick up on, though.

For Dev:

quote:

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TC, I can't agree with this. IMHO nothing comes close to an Fully Naimed LP12 in overall musicality, the Lingo is a divergence in my view.

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Quite possibly, but the fact is that the Clearaudio was so far ahead of my old LP12 at Phase 7/8 that the Lingo versus Armageddon thing really wasn't that much of an issue. Granted, I accept that the full monty Naimed LP12 will be a bit better.

quote:

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I have heard the Xerxes X/SME V, Gyro/SME V and the P9 and owned the Phonosophie and Well Tempered. I found that unless you live with a record player for a while in your room with your system first impressions can be a bit misleading.

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Agreed. You have to live with a deck for a while, and whilst I didn't live with the Xerxes, Gryro or P9, I could tell straight away that they weren't for me (although the Xerxes was very good indeed, better than the P9 I felt). I did however live with the LP12 and knew it well, and having had the Clearaudio for around 9 months now, I feel I am getting to know it well also. However, it's boxed up at the moment whilst my house is gutted prior to sale.

Thing is, Dev, at least you have tried a few alternatives and chosen what you felt was best. If I had felt the same, I'd have spent the insurance on a new fully-Naimed LP12 too, but with the money I saved I had enough to upgrade my preamp as well (although not at the same time - this came a little later).

Still, the LP12 is a great deck, I am not saying otherwise. It's just not the be-all and end-all - the fact we're having this minor disagreement suggest to me that nothing really is, they're all interpretations on a theme, if you will.

TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."

It's worth noting that this is the second LP12 I have owned. I have found that these things are so dependant on your floor and the room that the results you get with one in one room might be different with another somewhere else. I personally am getting such a great sound from my 1983 vintage LP12 (only the Lid and outer patter are original though) and it has a musicality, groove and sonics that is totally amazing.

Dev

quote:

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and the tangential arm, although at risk of sounding a little bit too accurate, is a superb tracker of any disc.

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!

Paul

The risk inherent is that it will show up every last little bit of crud you have in those grooves, so a VPI cleaner or similar is almost essential...

TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."

Not meaning to be offensive because I am sure he is a lovly bloke etc, but is Roy Gregory 'all there?'

I only ask because he bleats on about these bits of plastic you put on your CDs like they are a god send, and now apparently some bits of plastic, with cut outs, but you only place one on one of your companants feet, and WOW the opening of the sounds, the inky blacks, the whitest whites etc etc etc.

Jesus, is his hifi crap to start with? If it gets any more open from this issue alone it will become a black hole.

I found that article on the LP12 interesting, especially as I have one waiting in the wings however they speak to you like you are already an expert, it may have been nicer if they assumed you hadn't bought an LP12 before.

hey ho.

quote:

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If you set up a Mana stack really badly then the Clearaudio is the better turntable if you stick it on a support other than Mana.

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Hi Paul.

Apart from the fact that it fell off the wall (due to crumbly walls and inadequate screws (3" - shoulda been 5" ones)), the stack was setup in textbook fashion - finger tight+ nuts, all as level as the Mana spirit level would show, spikes low as possible. So, the Mana was extremely beneficial to the LP12 - some might say essential - but the Clearaudio still sounds better on the QS Reference than the LP12 did at Phase 8. I'm sure by the time you hit Phase 12 or whatever this is all removed but the point I'm making is this:

LP12 plus Phase 7/8 Mana = excellent+
Clearaudio, no Mana = excellent++

...and if only the sharp spiked Clearaudio feet had been more compatible with the glass of the Mana shelves, I'd be at Phase 12 by now no doubt.

Trying to imply that the Mana was wrongly setup is complete nonsense. Only the mad would persist with any stand to the degree I did if it wasn't delivering all of its promises.

To recap: I changed from Mana because of my new kit, not because of any failure of the LP12. Even the best ingredients in the world don't always a gourmet meal make: take Bacon and Ice-cream as a Lou Reed-inspired example...

TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."

"the Mana was extremely beneficial to the LP12 - some might say essential"

My lp12 is singing on Fraim - Mana is a long way from essential for me.

With regard to the clearaudio/Linn thing - I use an lp12/arrow/prefix/lingo combination and have recently introduced a clearaudio victory H into the equation. I love it, it is fantastiacally open and fast with loads of detail and bags of musicality. Maybe this is a worthwhile route to investigate for people wanting to combine some of the strengths of the two differing approaches

TC's right on the money regarding set-up correctness judged by a piece of Mana with spikes loaded sitting in a shipping carton - only an incorrect assumption could be made by someone unfamiliar with Mana stands. Anyone with any familiarity of Mana knows this and simply took advantage of this problem during the "TC crucifiction".(pretty f*cking sad IMO.) The spikes once installed (correctly or not) have a tendancy to "tighten" on their own after the stand is positioned in it's permanent location. I suspect it's due to simple gravity as the weight of the stand bears down on the nuts after a period of time - the result are extremly tight nuts which degrades performance of the stand and must be re-adjusted frequently to retain the "initial" performance level.

regards,

dave

Please do not talk to Paul about finger tight nuts in his present frisky mood.

And BTW crisp fried streaky with Ben and Jerry's Full Vermonty is, well, Manna from Heaven.

Alex

"You suspect? I suspect you just made all that up, right?"

No Peter, I have no need to make something up. Whether or not an experienced Mana user wants to admit the problem exists is another story though.

My observation was after using/owning a multi-phased Mana'd rig for several years as well as observations of two other friends' multi-phased Mana'd rigs (one of the rigs have approx. 50 + pieces of Mana alone). All three exhibit this problem. Installers,substrates, brand of gear, specific Mana components and their configuration are different with all three rigs.

My reason for the phenomenon was a guess. (I am not a mechanical engineer). My observation might tie in with other Mana user's findings that the *musical* qualities of the Mana Effect deteriorates rapidly with time (beginning on day 2 after initial set-up actually.)

regards,

dave

[This message was edited by dave simpson on THURSDAY 09 May 2002 at 03:06.]

Can't comment on the tightness of the nuts issue - other than to say that the tightest I have ever tightened a Mana nut (to this day) is finger tight and then around a max of between 15 to 30 degrees past this point - which I often found to need retightening every few months, so I suspect that the nuts couldn't have tightened to the degree as claimed by some; more probably that was all lies.

At risk of stirring up the hornets nest, setting up Mana is pretty easy once you've done it a couple of times, so when I hear people talking about 'missetup' racks I usually take what I'm hearing with a big pinch of salt. Sure, getting the rack in tune and bang on level (not just somewhere in the Mana spirit level's centre guide, but centred within that too) can be a little trickier, but there are techniques.

What Mana do you have, James?

TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."

quote:

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TT @ phase 4
CDP / pre @ phase 3
Everything else at 2

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I made it to Phase 8 under the LP12 (or was it 7 - I had a spare level and I can't remember if it was the straw which broke the camel's back (i.e. brickwork)), Phase 6 under the rest, speakers at Phases ranging from none to 2 (depending on which speakers they were).

You'll enjoy Phase 7, and Phase 4 under the cd players, but I ultimately found the Mana didn't really achieve what I wanted my system to achieve - successive levels added more of the Mana effect, which was impressive, but it was diverging from the ideal, musical and tonally accurate sound that I was aiming toward. This is of course completely dependent on the gear used and with naim stuff I'm sure it doesn't apply, but moving from the Mana to the QS reference was a significant jump in the right direction for me.

A pity, as adding levels was fun

TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."

Not to imply elves enter your house in the middle of the night and tighten your nuts or the nuts magically tighten themselves after entering your toolbox for a spanner right about the time the elves should be in there... but, some explainable force of nature causes the problem - the nuts are always tighter weeks after you've set them initally. It's not that difficult a concept, we are dealing with relatively thin and flexible metal frames that are not stable. No-one has a problem with the idea of "stand break-in"...this must be related or either a small band of elves with a peculiar fetish have door keys to all mana user's homes.


regards,

dave

[This message was edited by dave simpson on THURSDAY 09 May 2002 at 13:18.]

Chaps

Buy yourelf some Hutter or a Fraim and you have the following advantages.

1. It looks a darn sight better.
2. It never "detunes" it is set up for life.
3. No fiddly adjustments, so you never agonise if it's sounding its best.

Buy some, you know it makes sense.

Regards

Mick

In fairness lids and stuff tend to get really tight as well, say on thursday you had some marmite on toast then say sunday you go back for some more, well the marmite lid is well tight and you know you didn't put it on that tight, well ok the marmite might have something to do with it but never the less.

Of course this could work for any day of the week.

"What you are describing is simply not true in my own experience. In fact, the Mana stands tend to sound better after a day or two, not worse."

Hi James,

Maybe better from some "hi-fi" aspect of the sound, but from the perspective of the system's ability to play a tune, I found it got worse for several days before leveling off (and out of tune.) Additionally, the more levels added - the more out of tune the system got.

You know, I think it all comes down to how we individually perceive the sound. If someone is really pitch distortion sensitive.. my observation should throw up a red flag. If an individual is sensitive to high-frequency distortion...he probably hates most transistor amplifiers (I have a few friends like this), an "imaging" freak will hate briks.


Guess these differences are what makes the world go round...

dave

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I've three friends who are professional musicians, and they love it too

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I always value the experience of amateur musicians who do it for the love of it rather than for the 'bottom line'. That said, I did work semi-professionally for some time, and I know where Dave is coming from with this one, but I would suggest that it's as much to do with the interaction of specific combinations of hifi kit on Mana than a failing of Mana per se.

TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."

You are probably right TC. My experience with Mana is limited to Linn, Naim, Rotel, Yamaha, NAD and a cheesy 50 dollar brand-unknown table radio that Mana could not even salvage...

regards,

dave


James...I was crushed by that "ner" Seriously though, if Mana does the business for you, that's all that matters (to hell with opinions like mine in other words