Artists who improve as they get older?

With all sincerity and humility, I think I have. Fortunately, others think so, too.

Fred

Interesting question because it’s not easy to come up with many names…

Do you think Madonna has improved a lot with age?

Although i’m not really a fan, her early voice, songs, lyrics are awful compared to her later material.

Debs

A large proportion of very creative men in all areas of the arts do very little of note post-30. Obviously there are exceptions such as Piccaso and others, but very often the best and most creative of their work occurs when they are young men. The main hypothesis is that it is a sex/mating thing

Maca certainly didn't!

I think Tom Waits gets better and better, and I think Ry Cooder's last three albums have been his best work.

Phil

Warren Zevon, the trio of albums he recorded before passing were his finest.

Most, if not all, of the great Opera singers.

Richard Thompson is my nominated national treasure.

John.

Hi Debs, Madonna is a good example, I also think she looks better too now, but then I don't like 80's fashions.

I think another factor might be being part of a movement where musicians are creating something new, and feeding off each others ideas. While I do not necessarily think being older prevents being part of a movement, a sense of independence does tend to come with age.

I am sure there are more examples. There are quite a few musicians who do have a late flowering of ideas, like Bowie and Robert Plant, but I do not think they match the heights they achieved in their youth.

Paul Simon had a long streak of creativity but when he went solo and could try out different studios and musicians his lyrics improved also.

I think Joni's evolution into jazz is wonderful tho some don't. I downloaded a great DVD on her for my niece while I was busy one day.

Improve might be a tough one for this man as he set the bar so high. He still keeps that bar high and at the age of 60, after 40 years in the business he can still keep 100,000 people enraptured for three hours a night, day after day. He is the Boss.

Here's what the artist Hokusai had to say about his artistry improving with age:

I have been in love with painting ever since I became conscious of it at the age of six. I drew some pictures I thought fairly good when I was fifty, but really nothing I did before the age of seventy was of any value at all. At seventy-three I have at last caught every aspect of nature -- birds, fish, animals, insects, trees, grasses, all. When I am eighty I shall have developed still further, and I will really master the secrets of art at ninety. When I reach a hundred my work will be truly sublime, and my final goal will be attained around the age of one hundred and ten, when every line and dot I draw will be imbued with life.

Gives some perspective, doesn't it?

I guess there is a difference between technically better which I'm sure can easily be the case as we get older, and the height of our (radical) creativity which I feel is very hard for us to attain as we get older. I remember when I was doing my PhD many years ago and the (implicit) deal / trade that young researchers made with older professors was pretty much that the former generated the ideas and the latter made them work.

Andy

I believe Alanis Morrisette has gotten better with age. Not necesarilly the song writing but her voice has really grown. Most people likely think of her as the angry young girl from the 1st album but her newer stuff is great.

I remember hearing an interview with Ian Anderson (Jethro Tull) from a a few years ago who said his song writing was now more sophisticated. The problem is that the end result is not as good as those early songs.

I do think for a lot of bands like Jethro Tull and Yes that technology was to the detriment of their music. They got home studios and drum computers and each wrote using those, but it meant the interplay between the musicians, which was at the heart of their music was lost.

Mudwolf, I am not sure about your comment on Joni Mitchell, I would tend to say that her increased influence from Jazz came in her initial hiatus of writing, from 1970-80, unless you are talking of more recent work which I have missed. Although later albums like 'Night Ride Home' have some nice songs, they still do not match their heights of albums like 'Hejira' for me.

I guess all depends on how you define 'older', Joni was 30 when she wrote 'Hejira', 33 for 'Mingus', perhaps looking back to those ages they seem quite youthful, but at 16 they may have seemed ancient.

Perhaps the question infers that an artist has a dip and then again reaches another creative high, but perhaps a long period of high quality is more valid.

I would say that the drop, or perceived, drop in quality of work is mostly in writing, performance often stays at a high level long beyond that, or sometimes improves. As someone who collects a lot of live recordings I do know that some of those great early performances are seem through rose tinted spectacles, some although mentioned with awe were pretty ropey.

Perhaps a more subtle answer to the question would be to consider artists for whom age/maturity has added a dimension to their art, perhaps 'suited' them. I think this is often true of visual artists actually but much pop/rock is so wrapped up in bright, sharp and youthful emotions that it seems harder to think of examples. Too many ageing rockstars either write about the same stuff as they did at 22 (and sound silly as a result) or seem to lose any creative focus at all.

I'll suggest a couple. Leonard Cohen writes beautifully about ageing in his last two albums without sounding trite or bitter. I'd also suggest Nick Cave as an artist that somehow seems to suit his age; well I certainly like his later output a lot more.

Bruce

quote:

Originally posted by Philip Tate:
I think Tom Waits gets better and better, and I think Ry Cooder's last three albums have been his best work.

Phil

Ry is somebody who has been consistently brilliant - certainly Chavez Ravine is amongst his very best work. Haven't tried Flathead.

quote:

Originally posted by Lontano:
Improve might be a tough one for this man as he set the bar so high. He still keeps that bar high and at the age of 60, after 40 years in the business he can still keep 100,000 people enraptured for three hours a night, day after day. He is the Boss.

He's the Boss all right. Not sure he's improved as he's got older but he's certainly ageing gracefully and maintaining an unbelievably high standard over what's coming up for forty years. The Beatles accompanied my childhood years. The Boss has accompanied my adult life.

Here's to the Boss.

Definitely Tony Bennett and Mel Torme.

Frank Sinatra, not so much.

Scott Walker.

Not everyone's cup of tea these days but one of the very few artists to become more radical as he gets older.

And what about Robert plant? His voice has certainly gotten better/more interesting with age and his solo work, from the 90s onwards at least, shows a youthful curiosity and a willingness to experiment/move on.

Coltrane, Hendrix, Lennon....

Seeing the pattern there?

IMO Frank Zappa seemed to have three superb phases:

1) Freak Out to Uncle Meat
2) Overnight Sensation to One Size Fits All
3) The Yellow Shark and Civilization Phaze 3

The latter two albums are my favourites of his and to me the ultimate expression of his art.

Another would be Andy Partridge. Apple Venus Part 1 is in another league from 'White Music'.

Son House would be another. However, he was in jail or hust undiscovered for most of his life....

I agree with Richard Thompson and Scott Walker. However, many musicians seemed to have said all they were going to say by the time they hit 30.

Do you think that it may also have to do with the sudden influx of money (in those cases where such has been the case) and they lose the edge and desire because they have "made it"?

Just a thought...

quote:

IMO Frank Zappa seemed to have three superb phases:

I see a few more than that:

- First Mothers (up to Uncle Meat)
- Second Mothers (Flo and Eddy)
- Early Instrumental (Hot Rats, Wazoo, Waka Jawaka etc)
- Third Mothers (Roxy, One Size etc...)
- Serious (e.g. LSO/Boulez/Yellow Shark)
- O'Hearn/Bozzio Years>
- The Ike Willis Years
- Best Band/Make A Jazz Noise Tour and albums
- Synclavier/Civ III and other electronica

quote:

Andy Partridge

WTF! Did you just right about Zappa and Andy Partridge in the same post?

The horror!