Value (of dealers)

IMHO the dealer acts more as a consultant, he/she should assess your existing system, your budget, your preferences and your requirements, then make suggestions based on these factors. They should demonstrate the equipment, fully exploiting its potential. They should come to your home with your purchase and ensure that it is installed properly and that everything is performing correctly. If you're a tunnel-vision Naimophile (guilty!) then the recommendation process can be somewhat obvious so the value-add of the dealer appears diminished e.g. I've got an 82 and I want a 52.

So, perhaps with some staple such as s/h 250s, the dealer's ability to add value isn't that great but with something less robust such as CD players or turntables they can offer more, such as warranty, security, peace of mind.

Cheers

John

P.S. The home set-up process seems especially important for things that are easy to screw up. I know that when I read the SBL setup handbook I was very happy that it wasn't going to be me doing it.

Thanks for you views - particularly ref to 'consultant'.

'IMHO the dealer acts more as a consultant…(and)….assesses…your preferences and your requirements'

How does a consultant set about assessing customer preferences? by asking questions?
What questions?
How accurate do your answers have to be, to enable him to succeed?

Would it be better if he played a wide range of kit with different characteristics until he (and you) spotted that magic moment?

How long can the consultant afford to spend with you?
What do you do if he doesn't succeed?

Am I asking too many questions and turning into a consultant (or dealer?)

Anybody care to share their views?

Cheers

Don

Quote 'the value-add of the dealer appears diminished e.g. I've got an 82 and I want a 52.'

I agree that in this case the dealer's job is straightforward.

You have a nice phone- call, explaining preferences and requirements
Dealer sets up 82 and 52 in system, which is identical to yours (????)
Spends an hour or so playing a wide range of music on each
Points out all the benefits based on his SKILL, KNOWLEDGE and EXPERIENCE
Points out all the drawbacks (this could apply to customer with 4*135 active system changing up to 500 passive - ask ken c)
Makes sure you are truly satisfied this move DOES deliver ALL your preferences and requirements (he has been watching you discretely throughout, so knows better than you!)
Your mind is absolutetly clear (either way!)
You either buy or you don't

The VALUE is clear (not sure about the price)

Anybody else got views?

Cheers

Don

Additionally once your chosen route has been found they should ensure that the system / components purchased work to YOUR satisfaction in your home environment, and continue to do so year upon year.

The costs of using a dealer are often only seen as the purchase price, which for both new and used items is greater than a private sale. But the long term costs are not always so different, as the dealer will often give much better part exchanges on items he knows the history of, making upgrades simpler, and cost effective.

Dealers are the only place one can hear a wide variety of the latest products, so they are invaluable in this regard.

There are times that I purchase privately, usually when funds are tight and I'm totally happy with my own install / setup abilities, but it does carry more risk with little comeback in the event of problems, and no expertise to call upon if the item in question fails to perform as expected.

A dealer should have an intimate knowledge of the products he stocks, and can save an enormous amount of time trying to achieve the customers desires, my own experience with speakers is an interesting case in point.

I'd tried numerous speakers over the years (not purchased through my dealer) but had never been totally happy, I borrowed a pair of Epos from my dealer, but they didn't work in my room and sounded poor with my amplification, my dealer suggested 'I was a Kan man' and I promptly borrowed a pair - they never returned to the dealer and I still use them to this day. He was able to use his experience to very quickly determine my priorities and achieve the correct result.

The price one pays is commensurate to the cost of supplying the dem equipment, environment, time, delivery, installation, after sales support, loan equipment etc.

I've never negotiated discounts on items I've demmed at a dealer, particularly as my relationship with my own is often of the 'here's the dem room / equipment - enjoy yourself and shout for help if needed', but I have negotiated freebies if not using the dealer to install / make cables etc. The cost to the dealer of, for example, supplying free speaker cable is not that great, but can be a tidy sum off the bill for you.

Andy.

A simple measure is situated conviniently in a motion called "The second guess". that is, if you have cause to use it, you do not trust your dealer implicitly.

Caution must be exercised here. Should this implicit trust be absent, it is not nesessarily the dealer's fault, and may be absent due to a "can't see the woods for the trees" situation - eg - one might have a fantastic dealer, but can't relax one's sphincter sufficiently to reap the benefits.

Trust is built, and earned. But some of us forget to recognise which step on the path we have reached, and continue second-guessing... often needlessly.

Rico - let them eat Kans.

Thanks for your thoughts - very much in line with mine.

Quote 'My view on a good dealer is they should become someone you can trust implicitly, thereby saving you potentially thousands in buying gear that is either not good enough for you or does not fulfill your requirements'

My trust in Naim started with a dem in Salt Lane by JV. As a result, I bought a new LP12 etc and a second hand 12s/160. The trust was reinforced a few weeks later, when I took back the LP12 along with a Planar2 that had meanwhile turned up and which sounded better in certain respects. JV adjusted the LP12 and offered to buy, at list price, both or whichever one I didn't want once I was secure in my preferences. More importantly he drew my ears to a host of things the LP12 could do but which I was ignoring. He rightly pointed out that some of the Planar's strong points only SEEMED better, because of weaknesses in other respects. I bought directly from Naim, mainly second hand, until they stopped direct selling.

Cheers,

Don

Agree with your point about trust.

I don't have the skills to make quick decisions about whether an upgrade improves all aspects of the sound; or just some aspects; or whether some are improved and some are compromised; So I trust my dealer to have done the hard work for me and to point out the differences - warts and all.

This way I have confidently improved my system - on trust - knowing that with time, I will fully appreciate the benefits of the upgrade. The trust breaks down when the claimed benefits don't materialise or the compromises are too great.

This happened to me with one dealer, many years ago, who started steering customers towards another product range with convincing demos but no subsequent satisfaction. It took a chance meeting with another dealer before I realised what had happened !! Phew!!

Cheers

Don

It's always a nice day for it, have a good one
Steve

[This message was edited by Steven Toy on SUNDAY 05 August 2001 at 05:28.]

quote:

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Let's simplify things a little bit

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I got a bit lost after that.

Brian

Trust is implicit here. I am lucky in that I have 3 competent Naim dealers within 30 minutes of home. One of them sold me some of my early HiFi some 15 years ago and has encyclopeadic knowledge of his customers systems. Another has always offered fair and reasonable service with honest advice. The third keeps trying to sell me something I cannot afford!

Guess where I go for my HiFi?

I will buy used if reqired but am prepared to pay a little more for the service a good dealer can offer.

Milan

I think trust works both ways between the customer and the dealer. The dealer has to have some trust that you’re not going to abuse or waste his time. You have to trust the dealer not to simply sell you the item he makes the biggest profit on. These both need to be earned in my opinion.

Experience of 2 dealers.
Dealer #1
I think good dealers have spoiled me over the years. My first real demo was at Dealer #1 where you really get the feeling the guy doesn't care whether you buy something or not. It was in '85 and I had trouble getting him to take my money once I'd decided on a system. He wasn't sure that I was sure, but I forced the issue and ended up (after a brief interlude with a Rega 3….see later) with a LP12/Rega RB300/P77, 42.5/110, Kans from him. Soon after buying this lot I moved house (still local though) to one where the Kans simply didn’t work properly. I sold them. Only a year later I moved again. For a time I was living/working in an area close to Dealer #1 but also had my permanent home a few hundred miles away. I wanted to find out what Kans would sound like in my new house. Enter Dealer #1 again. He couldn’t let me take his demo speakers on the dates I needed them but he arranged a home loan of Kans for me through a different dealer closer to my new home. I think he did this because he had trust in me that I’d buy them if they worked. Had this been the case he wanted me to buy them from the second dealer. Unfortunately, they didn’t work properly but I thought this other dealer was amazing to let me take their demo pair anyway! This saved me money because, assessing the room, I thought they’d be ok and I’d have bought them had I not been able to get a loan first. I’d learned to trust dealer #1 because, not only did he spend a great deal of time with me through a number of demos’, he also told me that the Rega 3 I initially bought from him would be no good with the 42.5/110/Kans. I didn’t believe him and he agreed to sell me this system against his advice. He was proved correct when, within 1 week I’d gone back to him and changed the Rega for the LP12. He knew I wasn’t a time-waster because he knew I was serious about changing my system. I’d shifted an entire Japanese system + Bose 901’s (which I’d earlier thought were great) through private sales to buy something I’d never even heard of until I walked through his door. I went in asking about Quad! He educated me about what a music system should be about and what you should hope to get from a demonstration.

There are other situations though where trust hasn’t been earned. I have this now with my current local dealer. I don’t think I’ve earned their trust although they’ve done more than enough to earn mine.

Dealer #2
When I first came onto this forum 2 years ago I was using a Rotel 965BX and a Wilmslow Kit loudspeaker system. I had a ‘bass’ problem in my new room (I’ve moved yet again) and tackled it by looking to upgrade the CD and my amp’. Source first and all that. I approached my new local dealer (for the first time) and went for a demo of a Naim CD3.5 and a Hicap. Despite this being my first visit to this particular dealer they happily agreed to a home loan of the items because I couldn’t make a decision at the demo’. So far so good. Unfortunately, the CD3.5 and Hicap did not solve the problem with my system, nor did I think there was enough of an upgrade for the cost of these items. When I returned the goods the dealer offered to visit my home to help me sort out any problems with my system. They were in a difficult situation having no experience of my ‘kit’ speakers, but they were clearly trying hard to help me. They went on to mention that, since I found too small an upgrade between the Rotel and the CD3.5, perhaps I should take an opportunity to listen to higher level equipment, for example, a CDX. This was beyond my price range but I thought “what the hell, perhaps they’ll have a used one or an ex-dem model I can buy if it does the business”. When I went back to Dealer #2 for the CDX demo they used SBL’s rather than B&W as in the first demo. This was when I heard the sound I was looking for. However, the cost had now gone from CD3.5/hicap level to CDX/SBL level. So, there I was, starting off with good intentions but finding that what I needed to solve the problem cost too much. The dealer had been great throughout, had discovered the weak links in my system (the speakers and CD) but had effectively shot himself in the foot as far as a ‘new’ sale was concerned. What could I do? Initially I decided to get a used CDP through the dealer so I asked them to put me on their list for a used CDX or even a CD2. They knew I was going to look for a pair of used SBL’s on LOOT. However, dealer #2 doesn’t get many used CDX’s so after a while I started making enquires about other items that I could afford. I enquired through another dealer about the Densen CD player which I’d heard good things about. This is considerably cheaper than a CDX but I never did get to hear that model. Then I came across an ex-dem pair of SBL’s from another dealer advertising on LOOT. These were fully upto spec’ and they were prepared to send them to me on an SOR basis so I went for it, agreeing to buy them after a couple of days using them. These speakers obviously exposed the Rotel so it became more urgent to replace the CD. Dealer #2 wasn’t getting any CDX’s as trade-ins’. I know they’d have been in touch had one come in, they’d been in touch about a CD2 but that didn’t work out right. Finally, I made some enquiries and bought one privately from someone who contributes to this forum. Overall, I know that the dealer offered me great service but unfortunately received nothing in return so I don’t feel I’ve done anything to earn their trust. At least, not unless being honest counts for something. The lesson for me from this episode is that no matter what the next upgrade is, I should ensure that, if I can’t afford it new, they have the item in stock either ex-dem or second-hand at a price I can afford.

These are 2 great dealers. In addition, the dealer I bought the SBL’s from is someone I’ve bought stuff from in the past. I have nothing but praise for them too.

Between the times of Dealer #1 and Dealer #2 I've been to lots of dems’ at other places. Due to the amount of moving around I do I’ve visited, and bought stuff from, at least 5 other dealers and have had no problems with any of them. I’ve never been made to feel obligated to buy although cartridges were always a problem. I’ve been very aware that, once a dealer had broken the seal on a £350 Ortofon, the thing was effectively ‘used’ to anyone other than me and I worried a bit about that. Luckily, I always liked the cartridge because the dealer, using his experience, got it right by demonstrating the correct one for me.

For me, my experiences speak volumes for the quality of dealer in the UK. What other industry offers a service like this? I’ve told a few people of my experiences and I have to say most don’t believe a word I’m saying. They think it isn’t possible to run a business in this way.

In answer to the original question. I assess a dealer to be invaluable and their cost to be worth paying.

Brian

Excellent challenge ! and it demonstrates where the real value of dealers could lie. How many are up to it??

Some points to ponder

How many changes can the brain cope with in one session?

It applies very well to the new system scenario as described, but not quite so well to an established upgrade path where the choices are more limited?

I have only ever encountered one dealer (JV himself) who was prepared to go anywhere like as far as your description. JV insisted I bring my Dual/Rogers/JR149s to the LP12/12s/160/Barik dem. OK, so it was a no-brainer, but the principles were right. BTW, the practicalities and the sensibility of powering down/transporting etc (say) a cdsi/82/hicap/135s/sbl to compare with (say) a warmed up Krell or ML are quite limiting and there are no dealers offering all three systems. What do we do???

Even comparing a cdsi with a cdsii, are challenging and more so if you were only thinking of upgrading the transport part. How would you suggest a dealer add value here? given that a cdsii will give him a realistic opportunity to add value but the transport only upgrade could leave him out of pocket?

As I said, some points to ponder but a nice challenge

Cheers

Don

I have 5 Naim dealers within 30 mins. 4 are from the same chain and one is independent. Of the 5, two seem to be very pleasant and knowlegable and I have listened to non-Naim equipment they have, that my dealer hasn't got. However, I travel 90 mins to London to a dealer I have trusted for 6 years for both new kit and second hand. Not everything has been easy. I bought the Wilson speakers second hand, after hearing them only at a hi-fi show, but in preference to B&W 802 or 803 which my dealer had demonstrated. My dealer had clearly added value to my choice. Is this morally acceptable? (This dealer doesn't sell Wilsons).

Cheers

Don

Cheers

Don

I guess most of us have similar confessions. It does demonstrate the difficulty of acting with moral integrity even when you intend to be descent !. Would you have felt any better if you had paid for the service you received separately from the products you bought?

Cheers

Don

To Don

You wouldn't happen to be a dealer by any chance would you?

Pete

Not by chance nor any other means, I'm glad to say! - and you?.

Generally speaking, I think most dealers are pretty amatourish at what they do, don't really add value and don't justify the price they ask (part of their 'mark-up')

On the other hand, there are a few who are real pros, add real value and are probably under paid.

Most of us seem to have a gripe about dealers now and again. I'm just wondering if there is a better way of recognising their VALUE and PAYING for this value fairly, Win-Win used to be a popular phrase a couple of years back.

Cheers

Don

My first experience with dealers was as a youngster when I visited a HiFi shop they knew I did not have the cash but were prepared to spend time explaining things to me and even a short demo. When I started to buy (2 years later) they were my first port of call and sold equipment to me.

I also found a dealer who could not dem a cartridge for me but knew of another store in their chain who could and arranged this for me. I had to travel I little but it was worth it.

They have to speculate to accumulate.

Regards

Milan

No more posts for a while now. Keyboards needs a rest.

Brian

It's always a nice day for it, have a good one
Steve

Trust certainly has a large part to play, it's like you need to select a dealer as someone who has similar taste to you - people prefer certain wine critics or movie reviewers because they agree with that person's findings. I want to be able to trust my dealer when he says "Well, I tried xxx brand and I thought they sucked but yyy are great.".

I liked Don's comment "..until he (and you) spotted that magic moment?". Sometimes its just that, like, whoah, Jeff Buckley is right here, right now, this is awesome.

Cheers

John

quote:

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How do you assess the VALUE of your dealer, and do you actually have any idea of his PRICE?

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The dealers physical price is relatively easy to assess, its between 30% - 50% of retail price depending on brand. On second hand goods the dealer has to pay VAT @17.5%, and usually offer some kind of guarantee which obviously he must make allowance for to avoid being out of pocket later. By contrast a box shifter relies on high volume low fuss sales, so can afford to accept a far lower percentage mark-up.

Value is way harder to put a price on, and a lot depends on what the customer personally needs to learn. A competent dealer can help a customer leave a shop with a really fine system that is exactly tailored to their priorities. The challenge is finding not only a competent dealer, though thankfully there are more competent than incompetent ones so luck should be on the customers side, but finding a dealer whose musical priorities are similar to your own. Not a million miles away from my home is a franchised Naim dealer who sets his kit up using Nordorst cable and continually harps on about the superiority of Chord electronics - this is what I mean about priorities, thankfully I have sufficient experience to know his musical priorities are fundamentally at odds to mine. If I travel a little further into Lancashire I can find a dealer who really is on the same wavelength to myself, and who is one I would happily spend money with.

Defining exactly how I personally fit in with dealers is not actually that hard. I buy a lot of second hand gear, I simply can not afford to buy the equivalent stuff new, or even pay a dealers overheads on second hand kit, I am on far too tighter budget, and I also don't want to take a financial hit when I come to sell the gear. So if I can ever afford say a second hand CDX or 82 it will unquestionably come from Loot, I would not need to dem it as I have heard many in friends houses and know exactly what to expect, so I would not have any guilt about not using a dealer. Though when I want to hear say Mana vs. Quadraspire, I can't do this without a dealer, so I will book a dem when I am ready to do it. If I do prefer the Quadraspire, then I will later buy it from the dealer who has done the dem (I would have to sell the Mana first to be able to afford it). The dem would be for that sale alone, and I see this arraignment as being completely fair to both parties. Bottom line is that if I need a dem, and the result of the dem is that I want to own the product, then I will buy said product from the dealer. If I don't need the dem or the service I will land a second hand deal myself.

Tony.

Quote "Charging for dems.
They would get no business if they did that."

Why not ?

Quote "You pay full price for equipment you buy from a dealer, i.e: no discounts.
In return, the dealer optimises your system for the money you are prepared to spend."

How often do we get this level of service from our dealers ? Your examples, IMHO ,beautifully illustrate the dilemmas that we, and the dealer, often face. But what is the solution?

Cheers

Don

If we settle on the dealers' price being 40% of the retail price, the build up of a typical £2,000 item (82, S'cap, 250 etc) would be

Manufacturer 1,000
Dealer 700
Vatman 300

Assume the dealers 'all-in' rate is £60 ph (£1 per min) ie about the same as my local garage and architect. The customer could expect the dealer to put in about 12 hours of effort on this one sale.I am pretty sure this is quite reasonable and often happens eg

consultaion 1hr
dem 2hrs
order & receive kit 1hr
check & prepare kit 1hr
home installation 4hrs
aftersales 1hr
misc 2hrs

Would it be a good idea to charge £1,300 for the 'goods' and for the dealer to charge by the hour at £60ph for his skill and expertise? If you needed a 4hr dem you would pay more. If after the dem, you didn't like the kit it would have cost you about £180 with no hard feelings and a dealer quite happy to do it again.

Cheers

Don