Value (of dealers)

The life-giving power of a hi-fi system is enjoyment-yes? -well according to J Ruskin.

Enjoyment transforms the scowl into a smile.

So how about smily faces (and scowls)

Huge value =

Huge dissapointment =

Any better ideas???

Cheers

Don

Chris.

It's always a nice day for it, have a good one
Steve

[This message was edited by Steven Toy on TUESDAY 07 August 2001 at 02:07.]

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Would it be a good idea to charge £1,300 for the 'goods' and for the dealer to charge by the hour at £60ph for his skill and expertise?

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The problem here is that I bet no one would actually be willing to pay £700 for the dem / consultation, such is human nature. This would lead to dealers going out of business which I am sure is not a situation anyone here wants to see. By running with a high mark-up and offering minimal discounting a dealer is able to stay in business for the many hours a week that no one is actually buying, lets be honest this area of the audio market is not exactly high volume. The other thing is the mark up that the dealer charges is actually no higher as a percentage than what HMV and Virgin etc whack onto every CD or record that we buy, and all they are doing is providing a tiny amount of space to display the item in their racks and sparing a few pimply youths the indignity of working in McDonalds.

I suspect that dealers will find their lives changing over the next few years as society itself becomes more computer literate. Word of both good and bad dealers will travel, and the good ones will grow to cover the areas where the bad ones used to service. I already see this happening, and web sites such as this play a large part in conveying this information to the customers. IMHO there is nothing worse than paying a 40% mark-up for really bad advice, though obviously good advice can be priceless. Hopefully good dealers will prosper and bad ones will go out of business.

My personal view is to use dealers on their own terms, if I need the dem or service I will buy from them and pay the asking price without attempting to haggle. If however I already know exactly what I want, I will obtain it elsewhere at the best possible price.

Tony.

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On second hand goods the dealer has to pay VAT @17.5%

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My dealer has told me that the rules recently changed on VAT for second hand goods. They now only have to pay VAT on their markup, not on the whole selling price.

The last dealer to sell me something implied that the markup was reasonable because it was mostly VAT - now plainly not true!

cheers, Martin

Within that they may be required to dem it or put time and effort or warranty to the product. This is with them acting as an agent.

However Tony L puts his case very well and under similar circumstances I agree.

Milan

No demo was involved, I bought it mail order after hearing it was available from it's previous owner.

BTW I'm not moaning about the dealer taking a 20%cut, just him claiming the government would take almost all of it in VAT.

Is there an accountant in the house?

cheers, Martin

The general message seems to be that the average punter (us) won't pay for the service that dealers currently provide.

I am not suggesting that this service should be optional, just transparent. Naim try to tell customers what to expect of a dealer (dems, home installation etc)and we all have a good idea how much we're paying. Perhaps a bit more flexibility (not discounting!) might help.

Cheers

Don

If you like the guy, which implies that you share similar or overlapping preferences (not just music, but life generally), and you get on well, you'll probably buy from him and you'll get good value, because he will be motivated to provide it.

If you don't like him, you won't buy from him, irrespective of his level of technical competence.

Doing business is always easier when it's fun, and it's always more fun with someone you like!

Simple?

Best;

Mark

(an imperfect
forum environment is
better than none)

B&W 802 and 803's
Linn CD12
Naim 500
CDS2

In each case I had to take them back after 2 to 3 weeks, mainly because I was getting too used the units being in my system. The only item I was seriously interested in buying was the CDS2 and he was well aware of this. However his attitude is that unless he knows he has a need for gear for demo's it is better off someone else listening to it. We both know that when I do need anything I will get from him. it's called building a customer base.

This is the same dealer who gave me the deal of the century - 2 year old 102 and hi-cap (plus £1500) traded in for 3 year old 52+scap.

He has also delivered equipment over 150 miles to clients for no-obligation home trials of equipment, and then returned to pick them up a fortnight later.

A good dealer who shows this kind of commitment and interest in clients is well worth whatever he charges.

Colin Lorenson

quote:

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Doing business is always easier when it's fun, and it's always more fun with someone you like!

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brilliant!!!

enjoy

ken

Colin L,
Dealers like this are few and far between-look after him.

Cheers

Don

on a somewhat different, but related matter, i predict (sadly) that the way we buy hifi is probably going to change in future as on-line shopping takes root. installations will be paid for -- in fact i know a hifi shop off Tot Ct Rd that already charges for installations.

i alo predict (sadly) that there will be more price competition between dealers -- and that the only after sales available is as in the trade descriptions act. issues such as 'warm up/run in' will become rather difficult to handle.

what franchise model companies such as naim or linn or rega, etc etc, will adopt will be interesting to see...

enjoy

ken

One bad demo and the details would be posted here for all to see! quality of demos should improve dramatically??

Cheers

Don

might think/hope so, but the reality, i am afraid is different. there have been numerous reports of bad dems on this forum, sometimes mentioning the offending dealer, but i see no evidence of dem improving because of this.

there are dealers who are in hifi retail to shift boxes. as far as these are concerned, you should be thankful that you got a demo at all!!! you should just buy!!!

then there are others who are in this business because they love music and get a buzz from offering exceptional service. unfortunately sometimes this committment doesnt translate into a viable business proposition. i know a dealer who used to trade in tott ct rd, near goodge st, who was very good indeed. i recall him inviting me to listen to a phonosophie t/t, even though he knew i wasnt about to change my lp12. he had a large number of african records that he thought i would enjoy (he knew a lot more about this genre than i did...)

where was i???

enjoy

ken

I believe that it very much depends on whether you "click" with the person you are dealing with.

I have just had a short holiday in France and we ate a lot of seafood - and I'm not a seafood person but i enjoyed most of it! The family we went with are vegetarian (but eat fish) and one conversations we had involved getting to know your fishmonger!

The better you get to know your fishmonger I'm told the better he/she (Mike Hanson - I refuse to say "it") gets to know what you like and maybe saves some of the choice fish for the regular/good customers.

.....but (forgetting the fish analogy) the good quality stuff must be avaialble to everyone and its is incumbent on the dealers to demonstrate good quality equipment and enthuse the prospective purchaser.

Phonography in Ringwood is superb and IMO anyone in the south/south west should visit them and enjoy well informed high quality service.... and if you don't like their fish so be it!

Chris

1. have researched and listened to a wide range of equipment, and keep up to date
2. have on dem, those ranges that deliver good sound and are reliable
3. be able to demonstrate the equipment to its full potential
4. be able to demonstrate the effects of different equipment (and components) and help the customer to appreciate these differences
5. be able to install the equipment and get it working properly in-situ
6. be willing to replace or refund if the kit can't be got to work right
7. do it all with a smile and enthusiasm and recognise that customers will want to listen to other kit elsewhere
8. budget so that with a 10% success rate in items 3&4, he doesn't go bust

The price for all this, is 40% of the retail price and a fair number of customers who come back for more.
Fail on any ONE item, and ALL the smiles could turn to frowns instantly!!!

Who'd want to be a dealer????

Cheers

Don

9. The Dealer is truely independent of the manufacturers.

In other words, the Dealer is wholly unbiased in his/her execution of points 1 & 2.

This is no light-weight criteria. You need to really think about this one and how the world would be different if it were so.

Earlier in this thread someone remarked that it is almost impossible to find a dealer who will demo Naim and Krell and ML kit. Why is this? All three brands are indisputably of excellent quality judging by popularity and price ON A WW BASIS. But try arranging this demo in the UK.

Much of this thread has questioned what value dealers add. I think a general problem is that dealers have high business risk and can't afford the luxury of being independent of mfrs; especially ones who've motivated them with huge discounts and, in some cases, require the dealers to push their kit and not stock rival kit. Some mfrs also BAN their dealers from offering discounts to us customers by enforcing list pricing. This is of course ILLEGAL and is illegal for a very good reason: to protect the consumer.

I once posted a thread here asking for the cheapest dealerships at which to buy Naim equipment. I had no responses at all. I can only conclude that Naim kit is priced uniformly among all UK dealers. But how can this be in a "free" market? Different dealers have different operating costs - shop rents vary greatly for one thing. Perhaps this is just coincidence. Maybe my data is wrong. Perhaps I'm missing something.

So I'd like a dealer to be independent from mfrs but still be able to obtain all their kit and sell it to me at the price they decide.

Wishful thinking? You decide!
BAM

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9. The Dealer is truly independent of the manufacturers. In other words, the Dealer is wholly unbiased in his/her execution of points 1 & 2.

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Our best dealers fall into this category squarely. Most new startups make this mistake regularly, where they base their business model on the successof a manufacturer's marketing machine--which, when it goes south, leaves them stuck for a true business model.

Dealer feed back is critical, in the strictest sense--if something does not perform well in various settings, or is troublesome to install or maintain, this often gets back to the manufacturer or distributor.

quote:

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Earlier in this thread someone remarked that it is almost impossible to find a dealer who will demo Naim and Krell and ML kit. Why is this? All three brands are indisputably of excellent quality judging by popularity and price ON A WW BASIS. But try arranging this demo in the UK.

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Or here in the States...problem is, all three companies have radically different perceptions of how a dealer network should function, let alone the fact that few dealers have the capital to accomodate three complete sets of $40,000 demo gear.

quote:

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Much of this thread has questioned what value dealers add. I think a general problem is that dealers have high business risk and can't afford the luxury of being independent of mfrs; especially ones who've motivated them with huge discounts and, in some cases, require the dealers to push their kit and not stock rival kit.

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Or offer sales spiffs to dealer salespeople.

quote:

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Some mfrs also BAN their dealers from offering discounts to us customers by enforcing list pricing. This is of course ILLEGAL and is illegal for a very good reason: to protect the consumer.

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On the other hand, if a fly-by-night operation offers 20% off on a piece of equipment that they have never properly demonstrated because they never bought any demo equipment in the first place, one might understand how a manufacturer could become suspicious. (Not a very auspicious business model, either, after you've given away a good portion of your profit, if not all on some import lines!)

quote:

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So I'd like a dealer to be independent from mfrs but still be able to obtain all their kit and sell it to me at the price they decide.

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...although their trade price is the same--therefore, there must be some other factor that determines whether you deserve any type of discount or incentive. I offer the opinion that this can only occur when you've got a healthy relationship with your dealer.

Though as a distributor employee my vision might be a bit biased or clouded, I do understand how this works from both a dealer's and a customer's perspective, in other niche consumer industries:

- Customers don't want to deal with "know-it-all" dealers, and

- Dealers don't want to deal with "know-it-all" customers.

The same transactional relationships apply at the distributor or manufacturer level, by the way.

In other words, the customer is not always right if one is out of one's depth. This is where a specialist retailer should come in, offering advice in terms of possibilities, rather than a one-track sales pitch.

Dave Dever, NANA

[This message was edited by David Dever on TUESDAY 14 August 2001 at 00:49.]

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9. The Dealer is truely independent of the manufacturers.

In other words, the Dealer is wholly unbiased in his/her execution of points 1 & 2.

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Strangely this can lead to the opening of a whole new can of worms. I site the example of a dealer I know who uses non-standard setup like Nordorst cables with Naim kit, then loudly extolling the virtues of his favoured Chord amplification to Naim customers. His opinion may well be totally his own though it is to my mind completely bonkers, and I remain stunned he still has a Naim franchise.

quote:

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Earlier in this thread someone remarked that it is almost impossible to find a dealer who will demo Naim and Krell and ML kit.

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I think with Krell and ML etc the customer base is actually so different that most dealers who like those brands don't like Naim / Linn / Rega etc and have no desire to stock them, same goes in reverse. I think it is wholly right that a dealer should not carry product lines that he does not like or believe in.

There also seems to be rather a lot of childish politics in this market, as an example it was incredibly hard at one point to find a dealer who stocked both Linn and Naim as both companies had just fallen out with one another. Amazingly pressure was placed on dealers to abandon one franchise despite a very large and loyal customer base who owned systems comprising components from both manufacturers. Squabbles first, customers second!

Tony.

One could argue that there was room in the market for both models, but human nature being what it is, I suspect that over time, sufficient sales will be lost to the volume-based outlets to render the quality-first attitude financially untenable.

A few years of this, and you end up with all of society obsessed with price and programmed to ignore less obviously quantifiable parameters such as quality, reliability, etc. The accelerating pace of change in available technology doesn't help. When was the last time you saw a motor car or a TV set advertised as being better because it lasts longer, leading to a lower cost of ownership?

In so many fields, manufacturers and retailers have found that it is most profitable to build, and sell, crap.

This means that once the item is 3 years old, it pretty much falls apart, and the customer is advised to replace it. Like spoiled children, we seize the opportunity to discard yesterday's toys and replace them with more of same in the sure knowledge that we will do the same tomorrow.

Parable:
A long time ago, I spent some time in Greece. At the time, Greece had a branch of its police force dedicated to enforcing the price controls in tavernas. Menus were government-approved forms, with all the "possible" alternative dishes pre-printed, so that the proprietor only had to fill in the (officially-sanctioned) price on those dishes which he offered. Effectively removing price as a variable meant that tavernas would compete on quality, freshness and portion size. The net result for the customer was that you could eat like a king for peanuts, so all the restaurants were busy, all their suppliers were busy, and everyone was happy. Crucially, the product was of good quality, because quality was a prime parameter in the buying decision. In this instance, therefore, a lack of price competition benefitted the consumer to a greater extent than its existence would have done.
end parable.

I'm not (quite) advocating this approach, but it makes for interesting speculation.

Best;

Mark

(an imperfect
forum environment is
better than none)

Quote 9. The Dealer is truely independent of the manufacturers.

I agree the dealer should be independent of the manufacturer, or CLEARLY advertise his allegiance.

Quote Earlier in this thread someone remarked that it is almost impossible to find a dealer who will demo Naim and Krell and ML kit. Why is this?

I believe that Krell and ML have exclusion clauses with their dealers (allegedly). I certainly haven't seen a dealer in the UK selling both. Hence no chance of finding one dealer selling all three brands.

A FEW dealers sell Naim and Krell eg Oxford Audio Consultants and KJ West One. A few sell Naim and ML eg Radlett Audio and The Cornflake Shop.

Seems like independence could be conditional?

Cheers

Don

Quote few dealers have the capital to accomodate three complete sets of $40,000 demo gear

In the UK there are few (if any) dealers who even have ONE full top range brand from Naim/Krell/ML.

Grahams do well with Naim
Pinewood does well with Krell
Heatherdale do well with ML

But none of these, even, has the FULL range of their 'chosen' manufacturer available for dem
Most dealers seem to stock a GOOD range of kit, and BORROW from the importer/manufacturer for those 'top-of-the-range' dems. Seems to work-sort of.

Quote Or offer sales spiffs to dealer salespeople.

Really!! Sounds like a whole new can of worms!!.

Cheers

Don

Quote I site the example of a dealer I know who uses non-standard setup like Nordorst cables with Naim kit, then loudly extolling the virtues of his favoured Chord amplification to Naim customers.

Dealers like this are cheats IMHO, and should be named and shamed.

Quote I think with Krell and ML etc the customer base is actually so different that most dealers who like those brands don't like Naim / Linn / Rega etc and have no desire to stock them, same goes in reverse. I think it is wholly right that a dealer should not carry product lines that he does not like or believe in.

I think a GOOD dealer, who provides VALUE, would recognise the range of 'tastes' in hifi sound and offer his customers these tastes, WITH ADVICE, rather than pushing his own views universally, perhaps?

Cheers

Don

Quote When was the last time you saw a motor car ...........advertised as being better because it lasts longer, leading to a lower cost of ownership?

Probably in a Mercedes advert. But then I bought my first (second hand) Mercedes over 15 years ago for this very reason and have since realised that I can't really afford a Ford/Rover/Vauxhall……..(touch wood)

Cheers

Don