Remembrance Sunday.

George

Well put George, and obviously heartfelt. I've been thinking a lot about WWII recently having spent an incredibly moving afternoon this summer at Oradour sur Glane (look it up) and also visiting one of the D Day cemeteries and learning a bit more about that that campaign and WWII in general (partly from watching the excellent Thames TV World At War series)

Remembrance Sunday does fill me with just a touch of unease though. It remains in essence a military ceremony, and your post suggests you see it as a British one (as I suspect do many). Yet wars in general have far greater toll on non-combatants and in nations beyond our own. WWII made civilian populations explicit targets (unlike WWI) and subject to genocide/starvation/poverty and disease as direct and indirect results of military action.

I'd prefer that we recognised and honoured the dead of WWI and II (from all nations, both civilian and miltary) on a suitable date and that perhaps we also have a seperate Peace Day when we remember the wider toll of war on people of the world, past and present. That day might remind us all that war continues in a variety of places, it is dirty and brutal and it generally causes the old and the weak the greatest misery. Somehow those deaths seem ignored by Rembrance Sunday.

Remembrance Day for me contains too much of the myth of a 'glorious death' in combat, and also seems too Anglocentric for my personal comfort. On this day I think of my two Grandfathers, each seriously injured in WWI, but the ceremony at the cenotaph does not connect with my feelings on current conflicts and the ongoing loss of military and civilian life.

Out of interest does anyone know what happens on this day in France/Russia/Germany?

Bruce

Dear Bruce,

I agree with your points, particularly that the Cenotaph Service is clearly centered on the Military. For me it does bring to mind the current conflicts, but possibly it may not be strong enough in that direction.

In Poland they solemnly mark "All Souls' Day," rather than doing the crazy "Trick or Treat" stuff the day before, and this would be a very good tradition to emulate and remind ourselves in a recognisable way of the many wider sacrifices made on our behalf.

The real question that I have no answer to or agenda on, is whatever can be done with regard to Afghanistan? If we leave the chaos will return, and yet the only thing that is certain is that eventually we must leave, and the chaos will return. Damned if we stay and damned if we leave. Yet the toll mounts and it seems that we must be very careful in respect of choosing political leaders who would in our name start wars here or there, which do not ever seem to have more than muddled aims and no clear end strategy. Only fools would get us into the situation we are in now, and the toll continues to mount. I call this situation tragic, and nothing else.

George

'what do we do about Afghanistan?' probably requires another thread entirely but it seems to me we now have a responsibility to leave a nation with some prospect of developing, and surely that means encouraging simple and legal agriculture and industry. How we manage to create an environment for that, and also one that does not burn with enmity against the West is hard to see.

Bruce

I totally agree that we have the responsibility to leave the place in better condition than we found it - having entered the country with our military forces - but it seems to me the very day we leave that it will return to its previous condition in any case. I can see no current argument that this view is wide of the mark.

ATB from George

Thanks GJ, well put. It really distresses me about current wars. and the civilians just tears me heart out not to mention the war wounded here not being really served over here. When Bush went in and wasted Afghanistan and said we'll rebuild I wanted to choke him. Tho it's brought about incredible news about their society I couldn't tolerate. I've decided not to watch the news.

I did see a documentary about an Afghany man that goes back and is trying to restore the wetlands Saddam tried to eliminate because of the people there that resisted him. Beautiful to see wildlife come back so fast. But both rivers are being damned in other countries north so it'll be limited.

The war is going to sink america in debt and there's no way out. DAMN BUSH!

oh and also I've posted this before my dad was West Point '43 and was on the beach in D-day. Still alive at 89 but fading fast. I watch lots of old war films and love the music of that era. Before WP dad was dancing to the big bands going thru Connecticut.

Our local classical DJ seems to always put Britten's War Requiem on our memorial day beginning of summer. Wonderful opera friend told me about that significance and I heard it live at Disney hall then he came over with the CD to show me how Britten did it. He was astounded with my system he could hear the chorus breathe. I tell him it's like driving a great jaguar. He has only heard it 3 times but wants to come over soon.

With the apparent emphasis on the 'military' it may be interesting to note the origin of the two minutes' silence - why TWO? 'One for those who died, and one for those who survived'.

I don't get to watch the Cenotaph, but I do know that the parade isn't just military Old Comrades. Other groups have been added over the years, including Police, Fire, Ambulance, War Widows & Orphans, Merchant Navy, Bevin Boys, Scouts and Guides. No, not every civilian interest group, but a large and representative number. As time goes on and we move further and further away from the number of casualties in the wholescale slaughter of the world wars, and the death of the people of those generations, to retain powerful meaning it will be increasingly necessary to embody this principle, already started, of inclusion.

Like many I had relatives who died in both wars. I also had relatives who were conciencious objectors in the first world war and who built roads along the west coast of Scotland. So in a very political family much has been discussed about remembrance sunday. Not once do I remember the day being about anything other than all those who died. Many of my father's family were in the merchant navy and on ships that were topeedoed. We always remembered them. I always understood that the day was about remembering those on both sides of the conflict too.

In my 'youth' I remember thinking that the day had become militarised and political and being very angry. I even wore a white poppy for several years much to the anger of many ( although not from my family or from the relatives of those who had died that I spoke to strangely enough!.)

I think that with the 'wars' in recent years in the edges of europe and the middle east which so many seem to feel we shouldn't be in, we seem to have moved back to genuine concern and reflection on those who have died 'needlessly' in a military event. This now again seems to include both serving personel and civilians.

My view is that the desperate jingoism of the Falklands War and a certain prime minister of the time did much to change that general compassion and make it a military event.

I for one am very glad we are returning to a place or remembering all who have died. It may just be age and a more world weary reflection on my part but I think I do see that concern in my children, now grown up and independant, and their friends.

in everhopeful peace
james

Sometimes they even mention the Merchant Air Service, yes it wasn't all Royal Airforce.
My father in law was an RO for British Airways(the first iteration) during WW2, flying across the Atlantic, in Boeing Clipper flying boats.
It took quite a while after the war for him to get an Atlantic Star.

As an aside, Mrs Bigh took her mum and dads , my dad and grandfather's medals in to school as part of the 11/11 lessons.
She noticed that grandads service medal had 1914-1919 on it, I've also heard US service men say 17-19 war also!

BigH,

Is that not because he wasn't demobbed(spelling?) till 1919?

quote:

Originally posted by David Scott?:
BigH,

Is that not because he wasn't demobbed(spelling?) till 1919?

It's not that, because he was invalided out during the war.
He was shown the "white feather" by a lady, he turned his lapel and showed a service badge. Apparently London Transport wouldn't let them show the badges.

Just in case anyone is interested in these things, the 2 medals my grandad got are:-

A goldish coloured medal, Face- laurel surrounds the words The Great War For Civilisation 1914-1919, Obverse- A standing angel?

Other medal is silver(tarnished)face- Horse and rider and 1914 1918, obverse George V.

Unlike the WW2 medals, these are both inscribed around the edge with service number ,rank and name.

quote:

Apparently London Transport wouldn't let them show the badges

You mean as a passenger? Or was he working for them?

quote:

Originally posted by David Scott?:

quote:

Apparently London Transport wouldn't let them show the badges

You mean as a passenger? Or was he working for them?

Sorry fundamental info missing he was bus driver.
Coincidentally he was driving the same busses in the war , just olive drab , not red!

One reason its seen as a Military Ceremony is that the Armed Forces are probably the only ones capable of putting on this kind of event. The Service Personnel that fought, suffered and continue to suffer are not some seperate breed from the rest of us; they all had fathers, mothers, friends, homes and loves. It just so happens that they went into harms' way and I'd be surprised if more died under the Blitz than on active service - Bomber Command, for example, suffered 57,000 dead - a loss rate of over 50%, which is simply hideous.

I'm not so sure about commemorating the german / Nazi war dead; too many evils carried out under the Nazi jackboot, as Bruce will know having been to Orodour.

Its also worth remembering that the ancient old men we see shuffling along behind their Regimental flags where often in their teens when they fought ( and died )

Two things for you to reflect upon

The Kohima Epitaph

When you get home tell themn of us and say
For your tomorrowwe gave our today

Secondly, read this article, and the letters it contains.

Rifleman Cyrus Thatcher.