Most over rated ever?

ejl,

On the basis of some of the hype he's had on this forum recently Shostakovich got my vote. Actually I think the 4th symphony is rather good. Never really liked the 5th - this idea of listening to what he wrote and then transposing what he meant never really appealed. I'm sure it's more my fault than his. Lets face it Berlioz didn't have a good word to say about Bach and Britten supposedly felt the same about Brahms, so surely I'm allowed to pick Shostakovich.

David

[This message was edited by David Hobbs-Mallyon on MONDAY 29 April 2002 at 15:55.]

Oh forgot to mention Goldie.

apart from timeless the rest I have heard is a bit cak.

Genesis, now I am a total prog rock man but I never understood this lot in any of their incarnations.

what about gary moore? Can't decide on him yet.

This is Fun!

In the first place I'd say on the whole music is overrated. I mean, try to imagine what life was like when there were no ways to reproduce music as easily and constantly as we do. Everywhere you go you hear music. Life without music hardly exists.

Secondly I'd say rock / pop music is vastly overrated. Why? Well, I don't need it, and yet it's everywhere and virtually everybody thinks it provides the commentary to their lives.

Transversely, classical music is ludicrously overrated. In the recording industry it apparently makes about 2 or 3 % over the entire turnover, most of which is Charlotte Church and the Three Tenors. And yet David thinks Shostakovich is overrated, because classical music is so important to him that his grain of sand looks like a whole world. And I agree: it is a whole world.

So that's why I say Beethoven is completely overrated. He's supposed to be one the utter great, and yet confess: how often do you listen to an entire Beethoven symphony, not to mention the Missa Solemnis (one of the ten great works of art ever, as Vuk hilariously pronounced recently)?

Herman

..just to add to my previous list, Ralph Vaughan Williams was not very fond of Beethoven, so you are in good company herm.

David

Dizzy Gillespie? The Vuk/TC feud continues, is it all down to angle iron?

It's not down to angle iron. It's down to the fact that Vuk clearly has a big case of penis envy

Or should that be a little case...???

Thing about Vuk is, he's a legend in his own head and if you don't match his warped ideology, he'll try to make you look bad and it always backfires on him.

I used to know people like him at school. They had no friends, and usually had a bad smell. They were usually as welcome as a fart in a spacesuit, and generally less pleasant.

Vuk, once again is there no beginning to your talents?

TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."

Can I add Vuk to that list? I think his vitriolic ineptitude is getting boring, and he seems to have nothing of worth to contribute.

FWIW, I added Mozart to that list as whilst I find his work pleasant and intelligent, the Mozart-Mania that I had to put up with when I played orchestral stuff seemed to be out of kilter with my own tastes. This is, after all, a personal opinion (even if Vuk isn't intelligent enough to realise it - no amount of education can turn the mental equivalent of the proverbial mutton into intellectual lamb. Apologies for the sheep metaphor).

TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."

Obviously touched one there! Not sure sure Vuk falls into the over rated category? Oh and by the way I have come to the conclusion that Van Morrison is ultimately derivative!

Raw nerve? Nah, not really. I just don't put up with people who 'act the prat' and in his case if that's the way he wishes to act then don't expect me to bear the brunt of it and put up with it.

If he has a problem, and isn't the coward I suspect he is, he'll contact me privately and we'll sort this out via email or whatever. The ball, as they say, is now in his court.

TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."

Sabbath were loads better IMO, their stripped down slugdge sounds fresher now than Zep's prog-blues.

If Percy sang like he did on their first album instead of like a little girl it might have been different. Ozzy's 3 note whine sounded more honest, simple but solid.

I had a chuckle there Kit. I would bet money you think the Munsters were better than the Addams Family - now that will sort out the pseuds from those of taste.

Much as it pains me, I have to agree with Vuk on Mozart and Beethoven, if not his nasty little jibes.

Nice thread this!

Overrated Classical

Of course I have no problem whatsoever with Beethoven, David - it's just that I often I have to remind myself to get some of his music out.

And your Shostakovich thing reminded me of the recently deceased director of programming of the Concertgebouw Orchestra, Marius Flothuis (a minor composer, too, in the Pijper, Escher, froggy tradition), who used to protest when Haitink was going to do another Shostakovich symphony (three times in a row of course). Flothuis, who loved Ravel and Mozart, thought Shostakovich was coarse and greasy - as if it was going to damage the interior decorating.

And, obviously, Shostakovich is great to write program notes for, just like Mahler, who hit the big time just before Shostakovich, in the early eighties.

Herman

Don't we need a thread for underrated?

I must put my foot down on this one. Elvis Prestley isn't here to defend himself so I'll step up to the plate! Do you know what Elvis would be doing today if he were alive???!!!



Scratching the lid of his coffin to shreds probably.

Madshadow

Suprized no one has yet mentioned Captain Beefheart. I nearly mentioned him earlier but thought Zappa and Beefheart in one reply might cause a few blood vessels to burst (garyi).

I've got to admit I like some of his stuff (Clear Spot for example) but the way the critics have idolised him for pretty much his whole career makes you think all modern music is a pale imitation. Hence grossly critically overrated.

OK heres a contentious one, Syd Barrett.

Was the guy a genius, should we bow down to the bike song? Did he create Pink Floyd, or did they really get started once they lost the acid ridden div?

I like beefheart where he was with zappa but his solo efforts are dire beyond reproach, so no salavation on this one greeny ;-)

QUEEN. (love to hate them)
Bowie a pub rocker?, you got to be kidding.
Regards Gunnar

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Originally posted by Seattle Madshadow:
Do you know what Elvis would be doing today if he were alive???!!!

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Dunno, I'll ask him next time I'm shopping at Tescos...



p.s.
Most overrated ever? Starting to think of some is easy, stopping is hard

Is he over rated? As an icon he has few peers and he certainly brought rock and Roll to a wider audience. Many noted artists (the Beatles et al) took up music after seeing him on the telly so he was influential in that sense, but his music? In terms of his actual music he was certainly 'over rated' as he was outshone by many a contempory such as Buddy Holly and chuck berry. Discuss?

So in what way do you think Elvis's music was overrated? You say he was overshone by many a contempory, but don't say how.

Elvis was not a song writer, which is the area in which the two examples that you give excel. Elvis was a performer, and in that respect I can't see either Buddy Holly (except perhaps for that last long dive) or Check Berry holding a candle to Elvis.

You could ceratinly say that his choice of songs was sometimes a bit mundane ... he did seem to have a penchant for middle of the road soppy songs ... but given a good song, and especially live, he could be quite magical. Go and watch the 56/57 TV performances and tell me they're not exciting ... you can see why people like the Beatles would be inspired. Watch some of the excellent 'That's The Way It Is ' footage from Las Vegas from 1970 - like the version of Suspicious Minds and tell me its not impressive.

And as a singer he's also exceptional. Listen to the Sun recordings, the Memphis session from 1969 or some of the Gospel stuff he recorded. They show he had a very powerful, versatile and emotive voice.

Another "next big thing"

Like a lemming I went to see them at the Big Day Out Festival a few months ago.

Blimey, a chap strumming an electric guitar screaming and his wife/sister (or both ?) bashing away at a small drum kit.

Still don't get it ?

Bon Jovi
Dido
Eminem
Pet Shop Boys
And I know you won't agree, but Badly Drawn Boy just has to be included.

This is getting too easy

Re Elvis, all the points you make are very valid, I happen to have a reasonable number of Elvis records which cover the periods you mention. My comments were not made out of ignorance I was merely questioning the quality of his music. Yes he was a good singer but I can think of many finer ones, his song selection was poor 'cos he didn't always have final say and to be honest his later years were a joke. The single think that made elvis successful was that he was a white man who could convey black music, he pretty much became the exceptable face of middle america.

I agree that the quality of the songs he picked weren't always up to scratch, but I'm not sure I'd agree with your other points. I think he was an exceptional singer and I think you'd be hard pushed to find many others who combine his technically good voice with the passion and timing.

Part of the problem with Elvis's recorded output is that he didn't like recording much ... and so it was generally a question of bundling him into the studio with a band, where they would essentially jam, and hopefully something good would come out of it. I think you get a much better impression of what he was capable of from live recordings ... of which there are quite a few legit ones, and many many good bootlegs (which tend to be much better than the official ones). And there are many good performances well into the 70s. Elvis gets written off in the 70s more because of the way he looked rather than the way he sounded. Its become something of a cliche to talk about the 'fat' Elvis period, but most of the people who go on about how dreadful he was then, probably never really listened.

To say that Elvis only became successul beacuse 'he was a white man who could convey black music' is also rather trite. He was nowhere near the first white man to sing Rhythm and blues ... and in fact his early style was a more rockabilly - blues/country hybrid, which was in many way unique. And I think he stage presence has quite a lot to do with his success.

Elvis certainly recorded some bland stuff. But if you take some of the better greatest hits collections, and there's hardly a duff track on there. There's certainy enough exceptional performances to fill 3 or 4 CDs ... how many other artists can match that?

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I think you'd be hard pushed to find many others who combine his technically good voice with the passion and timing.

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Steve, I'm glad you pointed this out. Elvis was one of the greatest singers when it came to timing. Never late, never early and with just the right amount of inflection.

BTW Steve, what's it like having a brother-in-law like Mark Levinson?

Andrew

Andrew Randle
Currently in the "Linn Binn"

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BTW Steve, what's it like having a brother-in-law like Mark Levinson?

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its very satisfying indeed