Most over rated ever?
Posted by: woodface on 29 April 2002
Which artist or band do you consider the most over rated? I can think of a couple; Mercury Rev (how did they ever get a deal?) and I better not mention the other by name, but you can probably guess through my previous posts!
Posted on: 29 April 2002 by woodface
Obviously touched one there! Not sure sure Vuk falls into the over rated category? Oh and by the way I have come to the conclusion that Van Morrison is ultimately derivative!
Posted on: 29 April 2002 by Top Cat
Raw nerve? Nah, not really. I just don't put up with people who 'act the prat' and in his case if that's the way he wishes to act then don't expect me to bear the brunt of it and put up with it.
If he has a problem, and isn't the coward I suspect he is, he'll contact me privately and we'll sort this out via email or whatever. The ball, as they say, is now in his court.
TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."
If he has a problem, and isn't the coward I suspect he is, he'll contact me privately and we'll sort this out via email or whatever. The ball, as they say, is now in his court.
TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."
Posted on: 29 April 2002 by Jez Quigley
I had a chuckle there Kit. I would bet money you think the Munsters were better than the Addams Family - now that will sort out the pseuds from those of taste.
Much as it pains me, I have to agree with Vuk on Mozart and Beethoven, if not his nasty little jibes.
Nice thread this!
Much as it pains me, I have to agree with Vuk on Mozart and Beethoven, if not his nasty little jibes.
Nice thread this!
Posted on: 29 April 2002 by herm
Overrated Classical
Of course I have no problem whatsoever with Beethoven, David - it's just that I often I have to remind myself to get some of his music out.
And your Shostakovich thing reminded me of the recently deceased director of programming of the Concertgebouw Orchestra, Marius Flothuis (a minor composer, too, in the Pijper, Escher, froggy tradition), who used to protest when Haitink was going to do another Shostakovich symphony (three times in a row of course). Flothuis, who loved Ravel and Mozart, thought Shostakovich was coarse and greasy - as if it was going to damage the interior decorating.
And, obviously, Shostakovich is great to write program notes for, just like Mahler, who hit the big time just before Shostakovich, in the early eighties.
Herman
Don't we need a thread for underrated?
Of course I have no problem whatsoever with Beethoven, David - it's just that I often I have to remind myself to get some of his music out.
And your Shostakovich thing reminded me of the recently deceased director of programming of the Concertgebouw Orchestra, Marius Flothuis (a minor composer, too, in the Pijper, Escher, froggy tradition), who used to protest when Haitink was going to do another Shostakovich symphony (three times in a row of course). Flothuis, who loved Ravel and Mozart, thought Shostakovich was coarse and greasy - as if it was going to damage the interior decorating.
And, obviously, Shostakovich is great to write program notes for, just like Mahler, who hit the big time just before Shostakovich, in the early eighties.
Herman
Don't we need a thread for underrated?
Posted on: 30 April 2002 by greeny
Suprized no one has yet mentioned Captain Beefheart. I nearly mentioned him earlier but thought Zappa and Beefheart in one reply might cause a few blood vessels to burst (garyi).
I've got to admit I like some of his stuff (Clear Spot for example) but the way the critics have idolised him for pretty much his whole career makes you think all modern music is a pale imitation. Hence grossly critically overrated.
I've got to admit I like some of his stuff (Clear Spot for example) but the way the critics have idolised him for pretty much his whole career makes you think all modern music is a pale imitation. Hence grossly critically overrated.
Posted on: 30 April 2002 by garyi
OK heres a contentious one, Syd Barrett.
Was the guy a genius, should we bow down to the bike song? Did he create Pink Floyd, or did they really get started once they lost the acid ridden div?
I like beefheart where he was with zappa but his solo efforts are dire beyond reproach, so no salavation on this one greeny ;-)
Was the guy a genius, should we bow down to the bike song? Did he create Pink Floyd, or did they really get started once they lost the acid ridden div?
I like beefheart where he was with zappa but his solo efforts are dire beyond reproach, so no salavation on this one greeny ;-)
Posted on: 30 April 2002 by Gunnar Jansson
QUEEN. (love to hate them)
Bowie a pub rocker?, you got to be kidding.
Regards Gunnar
Bowie a pub rocker?, you got to be kidding.
Regards Gunnar
Posted on: 01 May 2002 by woodface
Is he over rated? As an icon he has few peers and he certainly brought rock and Roll to a wider audience. Many noted artists (the Beatles et al) took up music after seeing him on the telly so he was influential in that sense, but his music? In terms of his actual music he was certainly 'over rated' as he was outshone by many a contempory such as Buddy Holly and chuck berry. Discuss?
Posted on: 01 May 2002 by Steve Catterall
So in what way do you think Elvis's music was overrated? You say he was overshone by many a contempory, but don't say how.
Elvis was not a song writer, which is the area in which the two examples that you give excel. Elvis was a performer, and in that respect I can't see either Buddy Holly (except perhaps for that last long dive) or Check Berry holding a candle to Elvis.
You could ceratinly say that his choice of songs was sometimes a bit mundane ... he did seem to have a penchant for middle of the road soppy songs ... but given a good song, and especially live, he could be quite magical. Go and watch the 56/57 TV performances and tell me they're not exciting ... you can see why people like the Beatles would be inspired. Watch some of the excellent 'That's The Way It Is ' footage from Las Vegas from 1970 - like the version of Suspicious Minds and tell me its not impressive.
And as a singer he's also exceptional. Listen to the Sun recordings, the Memphis session from 1969 or some of the Gospel stuff he recorded. They show he had a very powerful, versatile and emotive voice.
Elvis was not a song writer, which is the area in which the two examples that you give excel. Elvis was a performer, and in that respect I can't see either Buddy Holly (except perhaps for that last long dive) or Check Berry holding a candle to Elvis.
You could ceratinly say that his choice of songs was sometimes a bit mundane ... he did seem to have a penchant for middle of the road soppy songs ... but given a good song, and especially live, he could be quite magical. Go and watch the 56/57 TV performances and tell me they're not exciting ... you can see why people like the Beatles would be inspired. Watch some of the excellent 'That's The Way It Is ' footage from Las Vegas from 1970 - like the version of Suspicious Minds and tell me its not impressive.
And as a singer he's also exceptional. Listen to the Sun recordings, the Memphis session from 1969 or some of the Gospel stuff he recorded. They show he had a very powerful, versatile and emotive voice.
Posted on: 01 May 2002 by Dave J
Bon Jovi
Dido
Eminem
Pet Shop Boys
And I know you won't agree, but Badly Drawn Boy just has to be included.
This is getting too easy
Dido
Eminem
Pet Shop Boys
And I know you won't agree, but Badly Drawn Boy just has to be included.
This is getting too easy
Posted on: 01 May 2002 by woodface
Re Elvis, all the points you make are very valid, I happen to have a reasonable number of Elvis records which cover the periods you mention. My comments were not made out of ignorance I was merely questioning the quality of his music. Yes he was a good singer but I can think of many finer ones, his song selection was poor 'cos he didn't always have final say and to be honest his later years were a joke. The single think that made elvis successful was that he was a white man who could convey black music, he pretty much became the exceptable face of middle america.
Posted on: 01 May 2002 by Steve Catterall
I agree that the quality of the songs he picked weren't always up to scratch, but I'm not sure I'd agree with your other points. I think he was an exceptional singer and I think you'd be hard pushed to find many others who combine his technically good voice with the passion and timing.
Part of the problem with Elvis's recorded output is that he didn't like recording much ... and so it was generally a question of bundling him into the studio with a band, where they would essentially jam, and hopefully something good would come out of it. I think you get a much better impression of what he was capable of from live recordings ... of which there are quite a few legit ones, and many many good bootlegs (which tend to be much better than the official ones). And there are many good performances well into the 70s. Elvis gets written off in the 70s more because of the way he looked rather than the way he sounded. Its become something of a cliche to talk about the 'fat' Elvis period, but most of the people who go on about how dreadful he was then, probably never really listened.
To say that Elvis only became successul beacuse 'he was a white man who could convey black music' is also rather trite. He was nowhere near the first white man to sing Rhythm and blues ... and in fact his early style was a more rockabilly - blues/country hybrid, which was in many way unique. And I think he stage presence has quite a lot to do with his success.
Elvis certainly recorded some bland stuff. But if you take some of the better greatest hits collections, and there's hardly a duff track on there. There's certainy enough exceptional performances to fill 3 or 4 CDs ... how many other artists can match that?
Part of the problem with Elvis's recorded output is that he didn't like recording much ... and so it was generally a question of bundling him into the studio with a band, where they would essentially jam, and hopefully something good would come out of it. I think you get a much better impression of what he was capable of from live recordings ... of which there are quite a few legit ones, and many many good bootlegs (which tend to be much better than the official ones). And there are many good performances well into the 70s. Elvis gets written off in the 70s more because of the way he looked rather than the way he sounded. Its become something of a cliche to talk about the 'fat' Elvis period, but most of the people who go on about how dreadful he was then, probably never really listened.
To say that Elvis only became successul beacuse 'he was a white man who could convey black music' is also rather trite. He was nowhere near the first white man to sing Rhythm and blues ... and in fact his early style was a more rockabilly - blues/country hybrid, which was in many way unique. And I think he stage presence has quite a lot to do with his success.
Elvis certainly recorded some bland stuff. But if you take some of the better greatest hits collections, and there's hardly a duff track on there. There's certainy enough exceptional performances to fill 3 or 4 CDs ... how many other artists can match that?
Posted on: 01 May 2002 by Andrew Randle
quote:
I think you'd be hard pushed to find many others who combine his technically good voice with the passion and timing.
Steve, I'm glad you pointed this out. Elvis was one of the greatest singers when it came to timing. Never late, never early and with just the right amount of inflection.
BTW Steve, what's it like having a brother-in-law like Mark Levinson?
Andrew
Andrew Randle
Currently in the "Linn Binn"
Posted on: 01 May 2002 by Steve Catterall
quote:
BTW Steve, what's it like having a brother-in-law like Mark Levinson?
its very satisfying indeed
Posted on: 01 May 2002 by woodface
Steve I would question a few of your points? Re his dislike of recording, this is only true in his later years and does not apply to the sun sessions or the very early 60's. Why did he not like recording? I think that he did not like the more technical aspects of it and he became too big for his boots. Your point about his music being rockabilly/country etc hardly makes it unique - what about Hank Williams. Perhaps my point about his colour was a tad trite but I feel it is still one worth making. I also must stress that I merely asked the question about whether he was over rated! For the record I think he is but I would not dismiss his influence overall.
Posted on: 01 May 2002 by Todd A
Bob Dylan. He just plain sucks.
Based on what some supposed classical fans state - not on this forum, but elsewhere - I also nominate Rachmaninov. He wrote a few good piano pieces, but mostly he wrote mushy ear candy.
What the hell is up with Mozart and, and, and Beethoven being on this list? Two of the greatest musical minds in human history overrated? I think not.
Usually every few weeks or so. I freely admit to listening more frequently to Beethoven's piano sonatas - among the great artistic achievements in history - as I prefer the more intimate utterances in these works, but make no mistake herm, the Eroica is one of the greatest symphonies ever written. Maybe the greatest. Vuk may have overrated the quality of the Missa Solemnis, though I think it quite fair to include it in perhaps the "top" 50 or so works in the classical repertoire.
Based on what some supposed classical fans state - not on this forum, but elsewhere - I also nominate Rachmaninov. He wrote a few good piano pieces, but mostly he wrote mushy ear candy.
What the hell is up with Mozart and, and, and Beethoven being on this list? Two of the greatest musical minds in human history overrated? I think not.
quote:
[H]ow often do you listen to an entire Beethoven symphony, not to mention the Missa Solemnis [?]
Usually every few weeks or so. I freely admit to listening more frequently to Beethoven's piano sonatas - among the great artistic achievements in history - as I prefer the more intimate utterances in these works, but make no mistake herm, the Eroica is one of the greatest symphonies ever written. Maybe the greatest. Vuk may have overrated the quality of the Missa Solemnis, though I think it quite fair to include it in perhaps the "top" 50 or so works in the classical repertoire.
Posted on: 01 May 2002 by Bob McC
My contribution is 90% of what my 15 year old son listens to. Can't name them, never heard of most of them!
Posted on: 01 May 2002 by John C
Let's not get carried away here! Elvis sang Mystery Train for God's sake!
Van Morrison, Capt Beefheart, Bob Dylan can each legitimately lay claim to greatest rock record of all time. Over-rated cannot include anyone who ever produced a single song or record of true genius.
I repeat, David Bowie, pile of shite.
John
As for the suggestion of Dizzy Gillespie, well.... the man only invented Be-Bop, dear me!!!
Van Morrison, Capt Beefheart, Bob Dylan can each legitimately lay claim to greatest rock record of all time. Over-rated cannot include anyone who ever produced a single song or record of true genius.
I repeat, David Bowie, pile of shite.
John
As for the suggestion of Dizzy Gillespie, well.... the man only invented Be-Bop, dear me!!!
Posted on: 01 May 2002 by herm
Beethoven Overrated?
Obviously I was mostly teasing when I said Beethoven is overrated. I like his Fourth Symphony a lot. What I meant, of course, is that I think a lot of people put too great a distance between his status and, say, Haydn's, just because the latter wasn't hyped in the nineteenth C as a dark romantic genius.
No matter whether you want to put Beethoven in the Ten greatest works of art or in the Best Fifty; if you put too much of Beethoven there, where are you going to put a choice from Haydn's massive output in string Quartets, Piano Trios and Symphonies?
And, frankly, for the past ten, fifteen years I sure have been listening to Schumann piano pieces more often than Beethoven piano solo. Not that there's anything wrong with Beethoven - it's just that they're supposed to be about things (the struggle of the sublime genius / hero) that are supposed to be of greater stature than the things Schumann's music seems to refer to. Well, I don't see why.
I used the word supposed a couple of times, didn't I? - that's what I mean with overrated. Ergo: I like Beethoven a lot, but not a lot more than a lot of other composers.
Herman
And now back to the Elvis discussion, please. It reminds me of the Post Stamp days. Do we want the Thin, Young Elvis, or the Fat, Old One?
Obviously I was mostly teasing when I said Beethoven is overrated. I like his Fourth Symphony a lot. What I meant, of course, is that I think a lot of people put too great a distance between his status and, say, Haydn's, just because the latter wasn't hyped in the nineteenth C as a dark romantic genius.
No matter whether you want to put Beethoven in the Ten greatest works of art or in the Best Fifty; if you put too much of Beethoven there, where are you going to put a choice from Haydn's massive output in string Quartets, Piano Trios and Symphonies?
And, frankly, for the past ten, fifteen years I sure have been listening to Schumann piano pieces more often than Beethoven piano solo. Not that there's anything wrong with Beethoven - it's just that they're supposed to be about things (the struggle of the sublime genius / hero) that are supposed to be of greater stature than the things Schumann's music seems to refer to. Well, I don't see why.
I used the word supposed a couple of times, didn't I? - that's what I mean with overrated. Ergo: I like Beethoven a lot, but not a lot more than a lot of other composers.
Herman
And now back to the Elvis discussion, please. It reminds me of the Post Stamp days. Do we want the Thin, Young Elvis, or the Fat, Old One?
Posted on: 02 May 2002 by Bosh
Will I get lynched for saying...Jimi Hendrix?
Posted on: 02 May 2002 by Steve Catterall
Woodface
I agree that he probably didn't like the technical aspects of recording ... which is probably why he didn't seem to mind so much in the Sun days ... when recording was much more simple ... just capturing a pereformance really.
I'm not sure it has anything to do with 'becoming too big for his boots'. Another trite comment which just shows your prejudice against him.
Hank Williams was not really a Rockabilly artist. He's about as country as they come. The sort of hybrid music Elvis was making at Sun had never really been done before. Compare his version of 'Blue Moon Of Kentucky' with the Bill Monroe version (which is much more Hank Williams style) and then his version of 'that's alright mama' with the Arthur Crudup original. Nobody else was mixing those 2 styles in quite the same way at that time.
I agree that he probably didn't like the technical aspects of recording ... which is probably why he didn't seem to mind so much in the Sun days ... when recording was much more simple ... just capturing a pereformance really.
I'm not sure it has anything to do with 'becoming too big for his boots'. Another trite comment which just shows your prejudice against him.
Hank Williams was not really a Rockabilly artist. He's about as country as they come. The sort of hybrid music Elvis was making at Sun had never really been done before. Compare his version of 'Blue Moon Of Kentucky' with the Bill Monroe version (which is much more Hank Williams style) and then his version of 'that's alright mama' with the Arthur Crudup original. Nobody else was mixing those 2 styles in quite the same way at that time.
Posted on: 02 May 2002 by Bosh
Its not that I'm saying hes not very good, I like a lot of his stuff and have many albums, its just that a lot of it also leaves me cold. It is widely acknowledged by many afficiandos that he's been exploited by his estate - witness the barrel dredging issues that keep on coming.
However, despite the fact that without his influence electric guitar technique may not have been where it now is, I still feel he is over-rated.
I also feel the same about Jeff Beck.
Come to think of it Clapton's also done his fair share of dirge
Better stop there before I'm banned!
However, despite the fact that without his influence electric guitar technique may not have been where it now is, I still feel he is over-rated.
I also feel the same about Jeff Beck.
Come to think of it Clapton's also done his fair share of dirge
Better stop there before I'm banned!
Posted on: 02 May 2002 by greeny
quote:
Dylan has created little of significance since the late 60's
WHAT???
Er how about:
Blood on the Tracks; Desire; Oh Mercy; Time Out of Mind.
I'll admit there been some drivel in there as well, but would you rather have periods of pure genius intermingled with drivel or just consistent OK stuff?
Dylan's been producing music for 40 years now and to still produce stuff of the quality of his latest is unique.
When was the last really good Stones, Bowie, Wonder album. All superb artists but non to match Dylan.
Posted on: 02 May 2002 by woodface
Steve, re Elvis again, how much of his sound was actually down to him? Probably not a great deal as he was surrounded by truly gifted and experienced musicians. Hank Williams does have a fierce rockabilly streak and stating that he was as country as they come is plain wrong. I don't have a predjudice against Elvis just an honest opinion based upon listening to his music.
Posted on: 02 May 2002 by Bob Edwards
Dylan, U2, Bowie, and Dave Brubeck.
Best,
Bob
Best,
Bob