Lack of HF extension

Posted by: Top Cat on 30 January 2004

Hi folks.

I've recently moved from 82/HC/250 to 52/SC/250, all fairly recent units. I'm finding that I'm losing a tad of high frequency 'air' (if I can use that term) as compared to listening to either source through headphones. Otherwise everything is fine.

The same issue occurs with the LP12 and with my cd player so I'm fairly sure it's not down to a problem with either source.

The system as it stands is LP12/Aro/Armageddon/Helikon/52K/SC/250/DNM Reson (2m lengths)/AP Virgo III speakers.

All the other cabling is Naim.

What I'm getting is a kind of 'veil' over the music, a subtle but nonetheless present roll-off in sound quality.

I've had the 52/SC for less than a fortnight. It is less than 2 years old. The first few days were magical, and I really thought 'this is it' - but since then things have become a bit odd - listenable, but just not as good as it was.

Any thoughts? Mains is optimised, and the speakers have good range (+/-3db at 40KHz) so I doubt it's a problem with them.

I'm a bit stumped. Could it be a warm-up thing? Kit is certainly broken in (it is s/h) - could it possibly be taking that long to warm up to deliver its best?

John

Posted on: 30 January 2004 by prowla

I've just moved my kit around (swapped shelves in my rack) and am seeing something similar - a distinct HF roll-off. I can't explain it at the moment.
In my case no components were changed - I just switched off, unplugged everything, moved the Naim boxes to different shelves on the same rack, plugged the wires back in (tightened and loosened the locking rings), and switched on.
Very strange.

Paul Rowlands

Posted on: 30 January 2004 by Dev B

I would guess: Speakers, stand, room.

In the meantime make sure you are using standard mains cables, speaker cables plugs, interconnects.

rgds,.

Posted on: 30 January 2004 by Julian H

Hi TC

Don't worry about it!!!

I went to a 52 last year (2002 model) and it was really wierd for about 4 weeks, sometimes painful.

I'd wait for 6 to 8 weeks before you start worrying (you won't, you'll be shocked

)

Regards, Julian

Posted on: 30 January 2004 by Mike Hanson

quote:
Originally posted by Top Cat:
I'm finding that I'm losing a tad of high frequency 'air' (if I can use that term) as compared to listening to either source through headphones.

I find the same happens when I go from a nearfield monitoring configuration to "farfield", and headphones are about as nearfield as you can get. I strongly suspect that your lost detail is getting absorbed by your room before it hits your ears. Try sitting really close to the speakers (4'), to see if it's improved.

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

Posted on: 30 January 2004 by Top Cat

Hi Mike, I've tried listening right next to the speakers (<1') and the problem persists so I'm sure it's not a room thing, though at the listening position (about 10'-12' away) I would imagine the room contributes too.

Dev - will check everything ok on the rack, I know the mains is fine and I'm sure it's neither speakers nor room. Julian's experiences seem to echo mine - same vintage (mine is mid 2002) and I've not yet had it a fortnight.

I have just acquired a 5m pair of A5 and a Naim cd->pre i/c to try; maybe the 52 is revealing some issue with the rather too short lengths of DNM Reson cable I have been using in the interim - perhaps that has skewed the sound, though why I'm only noticing it now I do not know.

The sound is basically just not quite there - and I've only really noticed it in the last few days. It's just a bit subdued, a bit veiled in comparison to how I remember it being when first I installed it a couple of Sundays back.

My first suspicion is the speaker cable - it's the only thing that isn't quite 'by the book'.

John

Posted on: 30 January 2004 by Nigel Cavendish

I suspect you will always get more detail from headphones and it is unrealistic to expect differently. £200 headphones will embarrass speakers at 5 times the price - in terms of detail. Personally, I prefer to listen to music through speakers despite their failngs.

cheers

Nigel

p.s.

TC you seem to me to be constantly dissatisfied, in some respects, with whatever kit you have?

Posted on: 30 January 2004 by Top Cat

quote:
TC you seem to me to be constantly dissatisfied, in some respects, with whatever kit you have?

Not at all - I'm just trying to get the sound I had a week ago back! Otherwise delighted with what I have, just striving to get the most music for my money.

John

Posted on: 30 January 2004 by davidf

when I switched from 82 to 52 I immediately noticed MORE high frequencies, not less. david

Posted on: 30 January 2004 by Erik

Relax and wait, it will take some time but if you are fiddeling around with the boxes it will never settle down. Be patient even if its hard. Typically Naim to go into a "tunnel" after the first impression. I suspect You to rave about the sound within a couple of weeks.
/Erik

Posted on: 30 January 2004 by J.N.

Hi John

A 52/SC produces a bigger, more powerful sound than an 82/HC. I'm guessing this is having the effect of removing some top end sparkle - i.e more bass sounds like less treble.

From cold; Naim amps have plenty of life and sparkle; if a little ragged. I reckon the sound then gets worse over the next 2/3 days as it fills out but goes fat and bloaty.

It normally sorts itself out within about a week. The sound opens up and some bass control comes back.

The fact remains that the 52/SC will produce a 'beefier' sound and more energy for the room to deal with.

Try moving the speakers - an inch or two may be enough.

How old are the tweeters?

I replaced them in my 7 year old SBL's and it was well worth it.

Good luck.

Posted on: 30 January 2004 by Carl Leermakers

I remember a very good post on this forum (I think it was on one of the 'Mana" threads) of someone from NANA insisting on the importance, not of support tables (on the contrary), but simply of "leaving equipment alone" to settle down. Maybe someone more Naim-educated than me can help you find this tread back!

Posted on: 30 January 2004 by neil w

roy

the 52 super was powered down for approx 3hrs before i drove to meet john

neil

Posted on: 31 January 2004 by prowla

I sussed mine out - I'd left the connections too loose. I simply tightened up the DIN locking wheels and presto my HF reappeared. (I then loosened them a smidge.)

Paul Rowlands

Posted on: 01 February 2004 by Top Cat

Update:

I've just changed the speaker cable from Reson to A5 so had to power down as I also took the opportunity to move the 250 into a better location (unable to do this before due to length of cables). It is sounding better after its 'downtime' but I suspect that I'll just have to be patient. To expand on Neil's explanation, add on an hour or so for Neil to reach our meeting point in Berwick Upon Tweed, an hour of blethering over coffee in Safeway's cafe, then another three hours for me to drive back and then set the kit up, so that's maybe 8 hours total - doubt that would make that much of a difference?

After I got the 52 I've switched it off on two or three occasions - as I've been fiddling, changing from S- to K-boards, etc. so maybe I'm my own worst enemy here

It will remain on now for the next few months, I promise!

I'm positive my sound will return, but changing the speaker cable has obfuscated things a bit!

John

Posted on: 05 February 2004 by Top Cat

Update:

Since the last post I've had the A5 in place for nearly a week and though the sound is good, it's not as good as I was hoping. I'm still aware of a lack of 'sparkle' about the sound, and I've checked and double-checked all connections to ensure that no locking DINs were over- or under-tightened, the polarity of the A5 is correct, cables are reasonably dressed, etc., though I have concertina'd the A5 under the rack and fastened it with cable ties - could this be the culprit (bearing in mind that the lack of sparkle was there before I got the A5 and concertina'd it)

Am I just being impatient? The oldest component is 1998 (the 250) so I doubt a recap is due there, and otherwise most things are fairly new.

Any suggestions? Maybe I just need re-assurance!

Thanks in advance,

John

Posted on: 06 February 2004 by Markus S

TC,

I just saw your system pics in the other thread. I noticed you still have your speakers on spikes. At the risk of repeating myself, get thee a set of SSC feet under them and level the speakers carefully (if not done yet). The feet significantly free up hf reproduction and might help you in your quest for top end extension.

Some of the missing hf sparkle may be down to the character of your new amps and/or your choice of system support, however. Swings and roundabaouts.

Posted on: 06 February 2004 by Dev B

TC,
I had a look at your system pics. Firstly if at all possible, create a two stack QS on the left: LP12, then 52 underneath. Then on the right: Your CD player, then the Supercap and 250 underneath that. Use the taller spacers to separate the CD player. I would not put the electronics behind the speakers, can you not place them elsewhere in the room (can you not extend the mains cabling). Despite what you may have read elsewhere, corners and next to walls behind speakers are generall areas where you get a lot of low frequency pressurisation which will have a degrading effect on your electronics (microphony and all that). I would then tow in your speakers to see if it helps.
Also maybe try a hydra for your Naim boxes and a separate spur for your CD player.

I am confident these suggestions will help, otherwise it is the stand or the speakers

Posted on: 06 February 2004 by Top Cat

Hi Dev,

Funny you should say that - the photos were taken before I got the A5 in - with that A5, I had enough cable to do exactly as you suggest.

I'll have a think about where I could relocate the system, but that will be a project for a little later. In the meantime, it's slowly (and I mean slowly) beginning to really come on song, so perhaps the patience thing has merit!

Thanks again,

John