You must choose ONE of these three and say WHY...

I'm going 2/1 on the cats...

ditto for the cats ...

What possible valid conclusion could be drawn from an impromptu straw poll of a score of people on this 'ere forum?

Jon, by all means tell os what you were about, but don't ponce about trying to dress it up as a "conclusion"

cheers

Don

i was going to ask my cats ...

quote:

Originally posted by Don Atkinson:
What possible valid conclusion could be drawn from an impromptu straw poll of a score of people on this 'ere forum?

Jon, by all means tell os what you were about, but don't ponce about trying to dress it up as a "conclusion"

cheers

Don

Seconded. I couldn't figure out 'ow to say but you made a tidy job uvvit.

quote:

What possible valid conclusion could be drawn from an impromptu straw poll of a score of people on this 'ere forum?

Jon, by all means tell os what you were about, but don't ponce about trying to dress it up as a "conclusion"

cheers

Don

Don,

Do you not think I am aware of this?!!

I was only having some curious thoughts that I'd use this forum to test; I teach this arena and have done so for over 8 years.

There is no harm in using the Naim forum's padded cell - I think its name suggests this!!

On the other hand, I could be really specific in my conclusions but won't.

Jon

My maternal grandmother had a farm in Nebraska but ended up in eastern Washington state. One cousin stayed with her in his teens and did yard work for her for the summer. She asked him if he'd like chicken for dinner. He said yes, if it's not too much trouble. She went out the back door and chased down a chicken wring it's neck, and ripped out the feathers in about 15 minutes then gutted it. He was horrified. cute little 75 year old gray haired lady. Watch out for those ol' farm gals, they can be ruthless.

quote:

Originally posted by Wolf2:
My maternal grandmother had a farm in Nebraska but ended up in eastern Washington state. One cousin stayed with her in his teens and did yard work for her for the summer. She asked him if he'd like chicken for dinner. He said yes, if it's not too much trouble. She went out the back door and chased down a chicken wring it's neck, and ripped out the feathers in about 15 minutes then gutted it. He was horrified. cute little 75 year old gray haired lady. Watch out for those ol' farm gals, they can be ruthless.

Reminds me of how I got off lobster for a while when I was about 10. Dad brought some home alive one night and dropped them right in the boiling water. Could have sworn I heard them scream. Too much for my 10 year old mind. But now I still love lobster. And I really don't think I will ever wander into a slaughterhouse because I like my steak..

John M,

That is a very interesting post as your love of lobster suggests your shocked classical conditioning as a 10 year old has been comfortably overwhelmed...

It's funny isn't it - we are all instinctively hunter gatherers and so have the capability to slaughter our prey for food.

Yet many are repelled by such an act!!!

The next question, is this because we anthropomorphise living creatures??

I suspect so, as now computer graphics are becoming more life-like, one feels guilt killing an innocent soldier.

A tentative but sustainable hypothesis.

Jon

quote:

Originally posted by Consciousmess:
I suspect so, as now computer graphics are becoming more life-like, one feels guilt killing an innocent ...

Au contraire - I often find myself wondering, as I mount the pavement and scythe through varied pedestrians, why my score isn't increasing.

quote:

I often find myself wondering, as I mount the pavement and scythe through varied pedestrians, why my score isn't increasing.

....level of competition from other French drivers perchance?

quote:

Originally posted by Consciousmess:
John M,

... - we are all instinctively hunter gatherers and so have the capability to slaughter our prey for food.

Yet many are repelled by such an act!!!

The next question, is this because we anthropomorphise living creatures??

I suspect so, ...

Jon

Dear Jon,

I grew up on a farm, and never once anthropomorphised ...

I adore animals, especially dogs and horse, though rather less so cats. I am a sucker for any cat, dog, or horse that looks receptive to a bit of a tickle! The truth is they sense a kindly person and often their owners are surprised by they way I can handle them. Once I made a fuss of a little old Jack Russell that was peeing on my wheels outside a concert, and he rolled over for a bit of a tummy tickle. The owner came running, as she was convinced I would be snapped at. The dog was a ten year old and had never been so friendly to a stranger according to the aged lady owner!

But they are animals, for me and that is it. When I had my old sheep dog put down it followed twelve years of loyal companionship, great laughs, a few scrapes ... He was a great friend in effect, but I did not have any sentimantal wish to give the dog a grave. I left him for cremation at the Vets. Gone is gone. I also did not hesitate to have him put down when I suspected life would no longer be without suffering. No doubt I could have spent a lot of money on the old boy and kept him alive for perhaps a year. To me that would seem both sentimental and cruel. My sentimentality extended to crying from 7 to 10 pm after getting home, and feeling utterly overjoed at having known the dog all his life next day, and hoping that I might one day have as fine a dog again.

I am almost as detached with humans though, and am a strong supporter of voluntary euthanasia. I do not believe it serves every human to have to struggle and suffer through a long terminal illness. It may serve some, but I believe it should be a free choice and not be seen as socially or morally unacceptable.

I intend to make sure that I never do face it myself, even if it means breaking the law to obtain a sufficient large dose of phenobarbitone to do for myself what I did for my dog, before the suffering is greater than the joys ...

ATB from George

George,

Many thanks for your post, I found that highly interesting and I genuinely send my condolences. I agree with you with regard to voluntary euthanasia with humans as suffering in life far out-weighs ethical issues challenging its cessation.

The quintessential reason for me floating the question: "which of these three acts would you do" is because I want to see what basis people judge their 'immoral' actions on. In this context, I defined immoral as harning another animal.

Scanning through the relevant answers given on this thread, (most) people would harm the chicken...

Maybe because most of us already eat chicken and they are less human like.

There you go, in a completely flaw ridden, volunteer sampled question from a culturally biased and select group of hifi addicts, my hypothesis was supported!

Regards

Jon

Fox got into one of the coups last night. Not sure how the door got to be open. Rooster held the fox at bay long enough for me to get out there and chase the fox off but it cost him a broken neck. Just had to dipatch him. Given that his neck was already broken the normal method of dispatch wasn't an option.

Sid RIP.

Willy

Bloody right wing TV news companies.

quote:

I want to see what basis people judge their 'immoral' actions on. In this context, I defined immoral as harning another animal.

How do you reconcile this with Darwin?

Man is top of the food chain. We are omnivors and haven't had long enough (in Darwin's theory) to develop into vegitarians. (i'm not even convinced we are really going in that direction anyway!)

So, our moral values (re hurting animals), which are very imature in evolutionary terms, are trying to develop in competition with our hireditary instincts of evolutionary survival in which certain animals are simply part of the food chain.

In the sample population of your experiment, chickens are a natural part of our food chaim, cats and dolphins aren't. QED

Ask the question in Spain, where cats are part of the food chain, and you might find a a wider spread of answers.

Cheers

Don

Do you know what, Don, that is a very very good point!!

I arbitrarily chose relatively innocuous acts, but there are always extraneous variables that are potentially confounding!!!

If the results are intended only to apply to a select target group, then there is acknowledgement that the results cannot be generalised further.

Can I therefore change the question........

What are the evolutionary ingredients that make up morality?

Is it the tit-for-tat phenomenon shown in the prisoners’ dilemma (copying other peoples actions whether they are good or bad is an evolutionary stable strategy)???

My curiosity lingers....!!

Jon