HDX, Munich pt.2. Wow!
Posted by: Huwge on 27 April 2008
OK - at the risk of coming across as a fan boy. The initial "Wow!" from Friday has not diminished, if anything it has been enhanced.
Revised view:
Bare HDX playing lossless ripped CD - seems to have the same tonal character as a CDX2 but it sounds a little more obviously digital. Very difficult room can not have helped, but 250.2 and twin n-Subbed SL2s probably would be a rounder, fruitier sound in a normal room. Very good, but only listening at home or for a prolonged session at a dealer will determine whether it is too digital.
HDX + XPS2 - Dare I say a more obvious change in character than slapping the PS on a CDX2. The sound becomes very organic, tending to a more analogue presentation and the noise floor drops away. Heaven knows what a 555 PS will do. This was with a ripped CD.
The same combination reading a lossless download file from the infamous Naim USB stick sounded good, but not as good as the ripped file. Seemed to be harder, but not digitally harsh. I think a lot will depend on the quality of the original recording and this was a George Duke piece that I was not familiar with.
So, from my perspective, this is a very interesting piece of kit. From memory I think they said it takes 8-12 minutes to rip a CD, but there seems to be a very robust error correction, internal control process that seems to contribute to this time.
Warranty issues still seem not to be resolved, so it wasn't clear whether the usual Music Line 5 year warranty for Naim kit would be applying to the hard drives. The hard drive stability is the real question that I would like better answered.
That said, come year end I will be looking to home dem one of these puppies.
As it is, I need to figure out how to get the readies for a Superline and a couple of Powerlines.
A fantastic show of Naim kit by the great team at Music Line. A brilliant effort. Best in show for my money.
There are loads of techy / geeky questions that I can not answer, as far as I am concerned the box plays music, full stop.
Anyway, the sun is shining and it is a glorious day so I am off to work on a sun rather than a computer tan.
Huw
Posted on: 27 April 2008 by thesherrif
quote:
Originally posted by Huwge:
HDX + XPS2 - Dare I say a more obvious change in character than slapping the PS on a CDX2. The sound becomes very organic, tending to a more analogue presentation and the noise floor drops away. Heaven knows what a 555 PS will do. This was with a ripped CD.
Huw
I'm a bit bewildered by that bit !
If the box is outputting a stream of digits, I'm struggling to understand what effect could a power supply possibly have?
Posted on: 27 April 2008 by 555
My blind stab in the dark is the same effect as with other Naim equipment.
Posted on: 27 April 2008 by Chris West
The HDX is played (in this case) from the analog output. The extra regulation layer contributed by an external power supply is a benefit to both the analog circuitry, and digital jitter reduction (in a similar fashion to how it helps Naim CD players sound better).
Posted on: 27 April 2008 by Steve S1
Can you stream from the Web through it?
Steve
Posted on: 27 April 2008 by 555
Note to self - must remember to use 'blind stab in the dark' technique more often ...
Posted on: 27 April 2008 by Chris Kelly
555, even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while!
Posted on: 27 April 2008 by Action
depends where its scratching doesnt it?
Posted on: 27 April 2008 by Huwge
quote:
I'm a bit bewildered by that bit !
If the box is outputting a stream of digits, I'm struggling to understand what effect could a power supply possibly have?
Don't know why it works, but the Naim philosophy has always seemed to be based on upgrade through power supplies as much as the next level of source or amp. Enough of us seem to think it works, without being able to explain the exact science.
As always, no one's pointing a gun at any one of us and saying that you have to believe and / or buy ...
Posted on: 27 April 2008 by 555
Posted on: 27 April 2008 by u5227470736789439
The squirrel knocks on the nut and says, .... ehem, .... sorry about this, ....
"Is the Colonel in?"
George
Posted on: 27 April 2008 by Warren
Thanks for all the info, sounds like a nice bit of kit.
The hard disk side of the box is clearly not aimed at people like me and thesherrif who want to roll our own digits but I love the sound of the rest. presumably its 'the rest' that benefits from the power supply upgrades.
Couple of questions:
1) What happens if a CD can't be perfectly ripped - I've got a dozen or so of those - will it ignore non-perfect tracks, do its best or reject the whole CD
2) Can ripped vinyl be loaded on to the server or do they have to be stored somewhere else.
Posted on: 28 April 2008 by Richard Dane
Huw,
it was great to meet you at the show. I'm delighted you were impressed by the HDX, it's something we've all been very excited about for a while now...
Some have questioned why we have gone down the path of an integrated machine with drives etc.. in the box rather just a streaming device. It's simple really, it's all about optimising performance, from the initial ripping stage all the way through to the DACs and discrete analog stages.
Only when you have total control over all aspects can you obtain the highest level of performance.
As for the sound quality, It's worth pointing out that the units at Munich were very early prototypes and there is still final development work on the "back end" stages to complete. Over the weekend the R&D guys made some excellent progress and the performance of the bare HDX has moved on quite a bit.
I have to admit though, that like you, the prototype unit at Munich, when it had the XPS connected (by the way, the XPS takes over power duties on the DAC and analog stages and completely separates these from the internal supplies, one of which remains in use for the disc drive, hard discs and Naim PCI board) was a revelation. I can't wait to hear the latest tweaks with the XPS attached. And then of course there's the 555PS...
Posted on: 28 April 2008 by Richard Dane
quote:
Originally posted by Warren:
Thanks for all the info, sounds like a nice bit of kit.
The hard disk side of the box is clearly not aimed at people like me and thesherrif who want to roll our own digits but I love the sound of the rest. presumably its 'the rest' that benefits from the power supply upgrades.
Couple of questions:
1) What happens if a CD can't be perfectly ripped - I've got a dozen or so of those - will it ignore non-perfect tracks, do its best or reject the whole CD
2) Can ripped vinyl be loaded on to the server or do they have to be stored somewhere else.
Warren,
the HDX will read and re-read until it can get a perfect rip. I haven't come across a situation where this cannot be achieved yet but I'll ask the R&D guys for more info on this...
Vinyl that has been committed to a hard drive elsewhere, either on a network connected drive, computer, memory stick, ipod etc... can be played back via the HDX. However only music ripped by the HDX drive will be stored in the HDX's internal hard drives - this keeps the internal drives "pure".
Posted on: 28 April 2008 by 555
Thanks for all the info' Richard; fascinating reading your posts as always!
Could you please tell us ...
Will HDX use both outputs of the 555PS?
When will the finished product be available for auditioning?
Posted on: 28 April 2008 by Right Wing
quote:
Originally posted by Richard Dane:
Huw,
it was great to meet you at the show. I'm delighted you were impressed by the HDX, it's something we've all been very excited about for a while now...
Some have questioned why we have gone down the path of an integrated machine with drives etc.. in the box rather just a streaming device. It's simple really, it's all about optimising performance, from the initial ripping stage all the way through to the DACs and discrete analog stages.
Only when you have total control over all aspects can you obtain the highest level of performance.
As for the sound quality, It's worth pointing out that the units at Munich were very early prototypes and there is still final development work on the "back end" stages to complete. Over the weekend the R&D guys made some excellent progress and the performance of the bare HDX has moved on quite a bit.
I have to admit though, that like you, the prototype unit at Munich, when it had the XPS connected (by the way, the XPS takes over power duties on the DAC and analog stages and completely separates these from the internal supplies, one of which remains in use for the disc drive, hard discs and Naim PCI board) was a revelation. I can't wait to hear the latest tweaks with the XPS attached. And then of course there's the 555PS...
Hi Richard,
Can you see yourself swapping your CDS3 for a HDX?
Peter
Posted on: 28 April 2008 by prowla
quote:
Originally posted by Huwge:
Warranty issues still seem not to be resolved, so it wasn't clear whether the usual Music Line 5 year warranty for Naim kit would be applying to the hard drives. The hard drive stability is the real question that I would like better answered.
I don't think anybody will warranty a hard drive for 5 years.
However, the mirroring mitigates the risk, as it is unlikely that two drives would fail in the same timescale.
I would also predict the tweaker's first move would be to put in a bigger disk (as was often the case with Sky+ boxes).
Posted on: 28 April 2008 by prowla
quote:
Originally posted by thesherrif:
quote:
Originally posted by Huwge:
HDX + XPS2 - Dare I say a more obvious change in character than slapping the PS on a CDX2. The sound becomes very organic, tending to a more analogue presentation and the noise floor drops away. Heaven knows what a 555 PS will do. This was with a ripped CD.
Huw
I'm a bit bewildered by that bit !
If the box is outputting a stream of digits, I'm struggling to understand what effect could a power supply possibly have?
That's either a joke, or you need to listen to some Naim.
The Naim mindset is grounded (sorry!) on the power supply.
Posted on: 28 April 2008 by Manu
thesherrif has not understood the unit is a player, so the analog output is used, not the streaming or digital one.
Richard,
That's really good news, I spend my day at the phone listening to my dealers raving about this new product...and you tell us the guys downstair are still improving it.
Posted on: 28 April 2008 by Bananahead
quote:
Originally posted by prowla:
I don't think anybody will warranty a hard drive for 5 years.
However, the mirroring mitigates the risk, as it is unlikely that two drives would fail in the same timescale.
I would also predict the tweaker's first move would be to put in a bigger disk (as was often the case with Sky+ boxes).
Why not provide a five year waranty? The latest Seagate drives have 1.2M hrs MTBF. This is 137 years.
How do you know that the drives used are not modified by Naim?
Nigel
Posted on: 28 April 2008 by Bungle007
Id be very suprised if Naim could modify a drive to increase its longevity. i think they are sealed.
Posted on: 28 April 2008 by Warren
quote:
Originally posted by prowla:
quote:
Originally posted by Huwge:
Warranty issues still seem not to be resolved, so it wasn't clear whether the usual Music Line 5 year warranty for Naim kit would be applying to the hard drives. The hard drive stability is the real question that I would like better answered.
I don't think anybody will warranty a hard drive for 5 years.
However, the mirroring mitigates the risk, as it is unlikely that two drives would fail in the same timescale.
I would also predict the tweaker's first move would be to put in a bigger disk (as was often the case with Sky+ boxes).
Maybe Naim will follow this up with a larger hard disk version. Seems unlikely there's any important 400GB limitation.
If a disk does fail after the warranty has ended its unlikely to be an expensive repair and as disks are pretty reliable it doesn't seem much to worry about.
Posted on: 28 April 2008 by Warren
quote:
Originally posted by Richard Dane:
quote:
Originally posted by Warren:
Thanks for all the info, sounds like a nice bit of kit.
The hard disk side of the box is clearly not aimed at people like me and thesherrif who want to roll our own digits but I love the sound of the rest. presumably its 'the rest' that benefits from the power supply upgrades.
Couple of questions:
1) What happens if a CD can't be perfectly ripped - I've got a dozen or so of those - will it ignore non-perfect tracks, do its best or reject the whole CD
2) Can ripped vinyl be loaded on to the server or do they have to be stored somewhere else.
Warren,
the HDX will read and re-read until it can get a perfect rip. I haven't come across a situation where this cannot be achieved yet but I'll ask the R&D guys for more info on this...
Vinyl that has been committed to a hard drive elsewhere, either on a network connected drive, computer, memory stick, ipod etc... can be played back via the HDX. However only music ripped by the HDX drive will be stored in the HDX's internal hard drives - this keeps the internal drives "pure".
Thanks Richard.
Be interested to know what they say about unrippable disks. I can't be the only one who suffers from them (admitedly its usualy CDs that have been in the car and a bit abused). Exact audio copy keeps trying forever, or at least it kept whiring away for the 12 hours I left it trying.
Posted on: 28 April 2008 by prowla
quote:
Originally posted by Bananahead:
quote:
Originally posted by prowla:
I don't think anybody will warranty a hard drive for 5 years.
However, the mirroring mitigates the risk, as it is unlikely that two drives would fail in the same timescale.
I would also predict the tweaker's first move would be to put in a bigger disk (as was often the case with Sky+ boxes).
Why not provide a five year waranty? The latest Seagate drives have 1.2M hrs MTBF. This is 137 years.
How do you know that the drives used are not modified by Naim?
Nigel
137 years is clearly an estimate, as there are no hard drives 137 years old in existence. I work in IT, and the drive mechs are the least reliable component.
I do not believe that Naim could modify a hard drive in any way; it is simply not their area of expertise, and tooling up would be HUGELY expensive.
The standard defence mechanism against drive failure is a RAID solution, and Naim have chosen disk mirroring (aka RAID 1).
This means that if either drive fails, the system simply keeps on running off other drive, but you then need to replace that drive to reinstate the protection (the replacement will sync up to the primary again, or "re-silver" as it is sometimes called).
It occurs to me that Naim will need to keep a fair stock of these particular models of drive, as you generally prefer to have your mirrors of the same type.
Posted on: 28 April 2008 by David Dever
quote:
The standard defence mechanism against drive failure is a RAID solution, and Naim have chosen disk mirroring (aka RAID 1).
Actually, it's not technically RAID–drive #2 only spins up during late-night incremental backups (if necessary) and drive #1 spins up as needed. So for those who tend to get worked up about spinning drives and their effect on performance, well....
Posted on: 29 April 2008 by connon price
Dave,
When playing a song (or album, or playlist), does the drive spit the file out into some ram so that it doesn't need to be spinning all the time? Interesting. As a 70 minute CD tends to be around 700Mb I imagine that it wouldn't be spinning much during replay with a couple of gigs of ram, depending on how long it takes to output an album onto the ram.
Is this correct?
But what of 24/96 tunes? How much memory does 70 minutes of music require at that rate?
Connon
