Systems Analysis - visits to forumers

Posted by: Steve G on 28 December 2001

John (Top Cat)’s system

I had a couple of reasons for visiting John – one was to hear his system (which has been much critisiced by a couple of Mana forumers) and another was to hear what a very expensive (approximately £5000) Cd player he had out on loan could do.

When I arrived the system comprised a borrowed SimAudio Moon Eclipse CD player, Marantz CD Recorder, DNM Pre-amp and Crimson monoblocks driving Neat Petite & Gravitas speakers supplemented by a REL Stentor subwoofer. The SimAudio was mounted on top of a small Mana rack, the monoblocks were on its only shelf and the DNM pre-amp was on the wooden floor as were the power supplies for the CD player and pre-amp. The Gravitas/Petite combinations were mounted on custom Mana speaker stands. Cabling was primarily DNM Reson. John was still waiting for his new cables and QS Reference rack to arrive, which explains this odd arrangement! His Clearaudio turntable was out of the system, replaced by the SimAudio CD player.

John’s setup (a bit like my own) is dominated by a couple of environmental considerations:

1) His listening room is quite small and has a suspended wooden floor (there is a cellar below). Logistics has determined that the speakers are currently setup firing across the room, toed in either side of a fireplace. The speakers are perhaps 4-5 ft apart and the listening position is slightly further away than the speakers are apart.
2) John’s house is connected to his neighbours and therefore it’s not acceptable for him to play the system loud at night. Most listening was done around the 70db level (I’d brought a sound meter) although we did play one Chemical Brothers track a fair bit louder (85db or so) before we realised his neighbours were actually in! Oops...

My initial impression was of a fluid, neutral & smooth sounding system which was very easy to listen to. I’d brought a number of CD’s and we listened to a selection of tracks from the likes of Beth Orton, Bruce Springsteen, Rebecca Pidgeon, The Chemical Brothers, Massive Attack etc. James (sybil) arrived after a little while (students are never on time!) and we both asked for the subwoofer to be switched off as it wasn’t offering anything constructive to our ears (although it was all that intrusive). The Gravitas’s were capable of going as low as the room required in my opinion.

James and I both commented that the presentation was quite laid back – this wasn’t meant as a critiscism more a comment on the overall balance of the system, particularily when compared to my all Naim system. A lot of this balance could be attributed to the SimAudio CD player as switching in my Micromega player gave the system a little more energy and in particular when the turntable was connected up it sounded a lot punchier that the SimAudio, despite being placed on the floor. To be honest I’m not sure what to make of the SimAudio – it was obviously very fluid and in control but it appeared to be voiced a bit too smoothly to really entertain me. In fact I preferred the system with the my much cheaper Micromega in place. We also listened briefly to Johns own CD source, which is temporarily limited to a Marantz CD recorder. Compared to the Micromega and SimAudio it was lacking in bass and treble control and had a forward mid-range however it wasn’t at all bad, sounding similar to equivalent priced (£300 or so) CD players I’ve heard.

Overall a nice system which did a fine job in light of the environmental restrictions (the laid back character may well be down to the low volume levels more than anything else). I liked the turntable and the Neat Petite/Gravitas combination a lot. In I don’t think I could live with the twitchy individual volume controls on the DNM although this is partially a cabling issue which should be resolved soon.

The SimAudio player wasn’t worth £5000 to my ears however it should be noted that it wasn’t connected up with appropriate cables and didn’t have the correct feet fitted (the shop having forgotten to supply them). The sub I felt definitely wasn’t required. I didn't really get any impression of the DNM pre and Crimson power amps which could either be a good or a bad think - I'm not really sure which it is and would need further listening with different sources and speakers to really get an feel for them.

Oh yes – for the Mana forumers out there I was offered coffee and biscuits (I’d already had my dinner) on a number of occasions.

James (sybil)’s system

Micromega Leader II CD, Naim 62 & 110, Isobariks

After leaving John’s place I gave James (sybil on the forum) a lift home. James had recently purchased a used NAC62 and I’d brought along my spare NAP110 so he could try it out. Despite the late hour James assured me his parents wouldn’t mind (they were in fact still up) so we connected the power amp to his pre and Isobariks and spun a few tracks on the cheapo CD player (Marantz?) that had temporarily replaced his recently deceased deck. James's room (which is also his fathers office) is pretty big – perhaps 20’ x 20’ or more with a very high ceiling. It’s pretty bright sounding though but at least the Isobariks have room to breathe and could be set a reasonable distance apart.

On first listen the system sounded horrible, probably due to the 110 having been switched off for a few weeks! After a few minutes it settled down and did a surprisingly good job of driving the imposing Isobariks. Cheap Marantz CD, 62 & 110, Isobariks – how’s that for a mullet system!? Anyway it sounded pretty damn fine and capable of some serious volume levels and bass. The Marantz was obviously struggling so we switched it for my Micromega (fast becoming a reference for Naim forum members in Scotland – it’s now been in the systems of Colin (Mr Pig), John (TopCat), James (sybil) and me!) which brought immediate improvements in bass control and treble sweetness.

I can see why people like Isobariks but man are they ugly! James (who’s only 18) knows a lot about hi-fi but I’d have to say his taste in music needs some work. Chick Corea FFS!? What’s that all about… I'm going to put together a teenage anger compilation for him (Limp Biskit, Linkin Park, Kid Rock, Papa Roach etc.) which I doubt his parents will thank me for...

Anyway thanks for the hospitality chaps and it’s great to hear a few more systems, especially as in this case they both sound quite different to mine.

Regards
Steve

Posted on: 28 December 2001 by Top Cat

It was great to meet you, indeed. You are right about that Eclipse CD player - very laid back, easy going. Although I agree it isn't worth the asking price (very steep, although build quality was A1) I felt that it was a fairly transparent player - in other words, sounding very fluid and laid-back on female vocal, up-front and punchy on more 'bouncy' numbers. However, I don't personally think I could live with it, although initial impressions were more positive but the attraction wore off.

At that level, though, there ought to be no criticism, so said player rightfully didn't meet up to expectations.

It really is a nuisance having the neighbours - I always feel that the system hardly ever gets out of first gear, but once I get a new place I have every confidence that something extremely special will happen. I think we were all agreed that the system is limited severely by the room - perhaps nothing much that I can do about that for now - but the potential is there. I didn't expect it to be described as 'laid-back' overall; I think it's more neutral than 'laid-back'.

Next time, prepare for the chili...

TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."

Posted on: 28 December 2001 by Steve Toy

Quadraspire seem to have the Densen syndrome - it will get there when it gets there.

I am still waiting on my bog seats.

Looking forward to hearing your system - even if it is only playing quietly!

I do like chilli!

It's always a nice day for it Have a good one!
Steve.
It's good to get back to normal.

Posted on: 28 December 2001 by Steve G

quote:
Originally posted by Top Cat:

I didn't expect it to be described as 'laid-back' overall; I think it's more neutral than 'laid-back'.

I think it the neutral v laid-back think might be in relation to my own system i.e. in comparison to a Naim system yours is laid back but that could well mean it's in fact neutral. Having listened to a few other systems now I suspect mine could be accussed of being a bit forward in character.

I'm looking forward to hearing what the system can do in a larger listening room - I especially think the Neats could be very impressive. And if you want me to look after that turntable while you're moving...

Regards
Steve

Posted on: 28 December 2001 by Mark Dunn

Steve G:

Have you cured your Credo boominess issue yet? If yes, how?

Best Regards,
Mark Dunnn

Posted on: 29 December 2001 by Steve G

quote:
Originally posted by Mark Dunn:
Steve G:
Have you cured your Credo boominess issue yet? If yes, how?

It's not cured yet. It was improved a bit by moving the speakers closer to the walls (odd but perhaps due to the design of the Credos).

Presently I'm considering a couple of options, including moving the Credos to my living room system and getting standmounters for the study.

I'll let you know how I get on.

Regards
Steve

Posted on: 29 December 2001 by Justin

several years ago when i purchased my first serious cd player, I had on home demo a micromega stage 3, stage 6 (I think) and a CAL Icon MKII. The CAL obliterated the stage 3 in my opinion, but the stage 6 (or what I recall as the stage 6) was better than the CAL, but $600 more. I settled on the CAL (as well forgoing the $1400 meridian player, although it was sooooo smooth compared to all players in the house) considering it a good compromise between the stage 3 and stage 6.

Having said that, the cd3.5 (naked) is better than the Cal (and so, stage 3) in my opinion in the ways that count to me. This is to say, a bit faster and clearer in the midrange.

A bit off-center. But still. . .there you have it.

Judd

Posted on: 30 December 2001 by Steve G

quote:
Originally posted by Khoi:
What is this model that sounds so good ? How does it compare against a CD3/3.5 ? And do you have reliability problems, as Micromega has a reputation ?

When I bought my first Naim system (92R/90.3/Credos) I auditioned it with a CD3 but preferred my Micromega player (an old Leader II). This was primarily due to the CD3 making the system sound overly agressive.

My main CD player is now a CD3.5 (with 32.5/SNAPS/140/Credos) which I bought because the Micromega was playing up. It doesn't always recognise CDs and it can take a few tries before it will play them.

Regards
Steve

Posted on: 30 December 2001 by Steve G

quote:
Originally posted by Mr Tibbs.:
This leads to the inescapable conclusion, have all the bloody Scotsmen got ears made of cloth ?

Perhaps although perhaps all this proves is that we're using them. It should be noted however that my main CD player is a Naim CD3.5 - the reason I take the Micromega with me is that it's currently spare and a lot easier to transport than the CD3.5.

I think the cloth ears comment is ill informed anyway as only once has the Micromega been directly compared to a Naim player in any other system than my own. So far it's been demoed in the following:

1) Mr Pigs system against a CD3.5 and Cambridge Audio CD4. There were 3 of us listening and all preferred the Micromega mainly due to its smoother, less aggressive presentation. This may well have been a system balance issue.

2) Top Cats system against a SimAudio CD and a Marantz CD writer. I found the SimAudio a little unexciting in the context of this system and the Micromega had a little more edge to it. I very much doubt the Micromega is a "better" player though. I also commented at the time that my CD3.5 would have been better in this system although John (Top Cat) said he'd heard one before and didn't like it.

3) Sybils system against some cheapo Marantz player. The Micromega was clearly better but again there is every likelyhood that the CD3.5 would have been better again.

4) In my own system I find the CD3.5 has better bass control and more punch however I prefer the voicing of the Micromega on female vocals as it's smoother. Overall I prefer the CD3.5 of the two but there isn't much in it and I'd be happy with either player. In fact for a while I was running with both players in the system and using them for the CD's they suited best.

I did consider purchasing a used Micromega Solo or Duo to replace the Leader II but like many I'm not convinced about their build quality so went for the safer option of the Naim player.

With decent players it appears to me that preference comes down more to overall system balance and voicing rather than which player is better or worse or (as you're alluding to) who has "better" ears. But at least it would appear I have better manners...

Regards
Steve

Posted on: 30 December 2001 by Steve G

quote:
Originally posted by Justin:
several years ago when i purchased my first serious cd player, I had on home demo a micromega stage 3, stage 6 (I think) and a CAL Icon MKII. The CAL obliterated the stage 3 in my opinion, but the stage 6 (or what I recall as the stage 6) was better than the CAL, but $600 more. I settled on the CAL (as well forgoing the $1400 meridian player, although it was sooooo smooth compared to all players in the house) considering it a good compromise between the stage 3 and stage 6.
Having said that, the cd3.5 (naked) is better than the Cal (and so, stage 3) in my opinion in the ways that count to me. This is to say, a bit faster and clearer in the midrange.

Judd,

I think the comment about the Micromega Stage 6 sounding smooth is probably the telling one. My Leader II predates that player but it's also very smooth sounding. I'd also agree that the CD3.5 is clearly faster and I'd also add it has better bass control.

Regards
Steve

Posted on: 31 December 2001 by MarkEJ

quote:
I can see why people like Isobariks but man are they ugly! James (who’s only 18) knows a lot about hi-fi but I’d have to say his taste in music needs some work. Chick Corea FFS!?

(1) Isobariks are very beautiful.
(2) Chick Corea is brilliant

Just thought I should set the record straight...

Best;

Mark

(an imperfect
forum environment is
better than none)

Posted on: 31 December 2001 by Steve G

quote:
Originally posted by Mark Ellis-Jones:

(1) Isobariks are very beautiful.

If you're blind perhaps! I suspect they're not quite as hideous in a wood finish but James are black. In some ways the ugliness is a good thing, people assume that in order to use speakers that ugly, they'd have to be good...

quote:
(2) Chick Corea is brilliant

I'm sure he's a brilliant musician (my Yamaha synthesiser came with some pretty impressive demo stuff by him) and if all the musicians on his stuff would play the same tune at the same time some if might even be listenable!

Regards
Steve

Posted on: 31 December 2001 by Steve G

quote:
Originally posted by Mr Tibbs.:
As a half Scot myself I probably have at least some cloth parts in my ears, but hey my manners are impeccable, it's just my SOH that needs reigned in from time to time!

Well my mother is English so if I have cloth ears I'm sure it'd come from that part...

Cheers
Steve

Posted on: 31 December 2001 by Steve G

Flicking through What Hi-Fi's 2001 "Ultimate Audio Guide" I noticed they have a short "Temptation" review of the SimAudio player (which they list as 4200 pounds).

They give it 4 stars (out of 5) losing the 5th start for the overall sound being a little too forward. Quote "it throws forth thunderously pounding beats that stop and start with metronomic accuracy". Well that's not the player I heard (although it sounds like I should have liked it) so perhaps the setup (in particular the missing feet) affected it.

Either that or What Hi-Fi reviewers have cloth ears?

Regards
Steve

Posted on: 05 January 2002 by Top Cat

I think it was the cables, in retrospect. I borrowed a Nordost Red Dawn RCA->DIN (Naim wiring, FWIW) and I couldn't believe how much changing the cable improved the cheap Marantz player. The Red Dawn is very pricy (relatively speaking) at £300 versus the £30 cable I was using, but it does hammer home the importance of finding a synergistic balance between cable and component.

In fairness, I think that not having the feet for the Eclipse probably disadvantaged it more than we thought, but the DR6000 with Red Dawn (£700 total cost, possibly less) sounds considerably better to my ear than the Eclipse with my 30 quid cable (£4230+++).

It just goes to show you. Oh, and I don't mind the CD3.5, by the way, it's a fine player, but I've yet to hear one in a decent system. The CDX or CD5/HC are much more enjoyable to my ears...

Happy new year, music is great but still without new rack...

TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."