Linn featured on 'Working Lunch'
Posted by: Steve C 01 on 10 June 2002
Did anyone see Working Lunch today? Linn was featured, and interviewed Ivor Tiefenbrum (sp?). Ivor seemed to make good sense overall - especially about in-house research, production & manufacturing to maintain quality - until questioned why his CD player (I guess this is the CD12) cost £12k.
In his reply, he mentioned that competitors equivalent products cost as much as 2 or 3 times as much, and the CD12 outperformed them.
Now by competitors he probably meant Krell, Mark Levinson etc, but it wouldn't it be cool if Paul & Naim responded to this claim with the CDS2/XPS!
Paul - what do you think
Steve C 01
In his reply, he mentioned that competitors equivalent products cost as much as 2 or 3 times as much, and the CD12 outperformed them.
Now by competitors he probably meant Krell, Mark Levinson etc, but it wouldn't it be cool if Paul & Naim responded to this claim with the CDS2/XPS!
Paul - what do you think
Steve C 01
Posted on: 10 June 2002 by Mick P
Chaps
Although the article lasted only a few minutes, it printed a reasonably accurate picture of problems facing smaller manufacturing companies.
Linn increased their sales by 20% last year but suffered a 30% reduction in profits. This was due to higher wagers and administration costs.
The route which they are taking to survive appeared to center around the following.
1. Moving to higher end goods eg £12,000 CDP.
2. Moving to lifestyle products such as having OE fitted into Aston Martin cars.
3. Will remain in UK to retain highly qualified R&D staff, Linn now has 40 full time such staff.
Ivor naturally used the programme for a bit of publicity, you can't blame him for that, and he did imply that all of the UK competition was dead but he never actually said that.
He reaffirmed his often quoted statement that the industry would always be 2 weeks from oblivion unless it moved and reacted to new market needs.
Overall, not a bad article.
Regards
Mick
Although the article lasted only a few minutes, it printed a reasonably accurate picture of problems facing smaller manufacturing companies.
Linn increased their sales by 20% last year but suffered a 30% reduction in profits. This was due to higher wagers and administration costs.
The route which they are taking to survive appeared to center around the following.
1. Moving to higher end goods eg £12,000 CDP.
2. Moving to lifestyle products such as having OE fitted into Aston Martin cars.
3. Will remain in UK to retain highly qualified R&D staff, Linn now has 40 full time such staff.
Ivor naturally used the programme for a bit of publicity, you can't blame him for that, and he did imply that all of the UK competition was dead but he never actually said that.
He reaffirmed his often quoted statement that the industry would always be 2 weeks from oblivion unless it moved and reacted to new market needs.
Overall, not a bad article.
Regards
Mick
Posted on: 10 June 2002 by Mick P
Jools
You are better than my secretary....yes it should have been wages.
Regards
Mick
You are better than my secretary....yes it should have been wages.
Regards
Mick
Posted on: 11 June 2002 by Mick P
Naimster
How will the Pound devalue by 10%-30% when we join the Euro and what will it devalue against.
Also when do you think we will join the Euro and at what exchange rate do you anticipate the Pound comparing to the Dollar and euro at the point of joining. Also I would be intersted in your predictions of the relevant levels of interest rates and inflation which will obviously impact on your learned prediction.
Sweeping statements like that drive me mad. I have 3 grandchildren whose lives are going to be greatly affected by alignment with the Euro and statements such as a "10%-30% devaluation" are most inaccurate and unhelpfull and present a totally unrealistic appraisal of a serious economic issue.
Regards
Mick
How will the Pound devalue by 10%-30% when we join the Euro and what will it devalue against.
Also when do you think we will join the Euro and at what exchange rate do you anticipate the Pound comparing to the Dollar and euro at the point of joining. Also I would be intersted in your predictions of the relevant levels of interest rates and inflation which will obviously impact on your learned prediction.
Sweeping statements like that drive me mad. I have 3 grandchildren whose lives are going to be greatly affected by alignment with the Euro and statements such as a "10%-30% devaluation" are most inaccurate and unhelpfull and present a totally unrealistic appraisal of a serious economic issue.
Regards
Mick
Posted on: 12 June 2002 by Sproggle
Patrick Dixon: Incidentally, I believe Ivor T is dead against the UK joining.
That's interesting. I must confess I don't know much about economics but I'd have thought that a company such as Linn [which doesn't have the exchange rate immunity of an import parts/bolt-together/export products company] would welcome the stability that I understand would result from joining.
What are the arguments for and against the Euro for companies such as Linn and Naim, which put considerable expertise into making their products?
--Sproggle
That's interesting. I must confess I don't know much about economics but I'd have thought that a company such as Linn [which doesn't have the exchange rate immunity of an import parts/bolt-together/export products company] would welcome the stability that I understand would result from joining.
What are the arguments for and against the Euro for companies such as Linn and Naim, which put considerable expertise into making their products?
--Sproggle
Posted on: 12 June 2002 by Paul Ranson
Most export is to outside the EU. Why would the Euro help?
Paul
Paul
Posted on: 13 June 2002 by Mick P
Paul
Unless my memory is playing tricks, have we not discussed this before.
It is absolutely essential (and inevitable)that we join the Euro over the long term.
Joining the Euro will put us on a CONSISTENT edge with European competitors, if say, when exporting to America.
The major problem is deciding when to join.
At present we have a base rate of 4%, 2%inflation with relatively good unemployment. If we were to join today, we would need to fix at todays rate and we would be under pressure to raise interest rates to maintain growth and low unemployment.
We would soon have to surrender our right to fix our own interest rates and this would pass to the EEC, who want a uniform rate across the board.
This would result in UK unemployment rising and we could easily head into a recession.
Therefore the conclusion is that entry or even alignment to the Euro is a mistake.
Conversly, if we do not join, we will be at risk from two major currencies.....the Dollar and the Euro.
We need the protection and long term stability that joining the Euro brings, but our current interst rates and inflation levels linked to GDP growth make joining at present most inadvisable.
The one thing that does irratate me about this subject is the fools who claim that we should not join because of the history of the Pound or that we should keep our sausages the same etc.
The decision should be based on financial considerations and nothing else.
When we do join, the winners in the UK would be service and financial industries, large scale high value add industries (Honda, Nissan etc)and also smaller high tech industries such as Naim.
The rural and low tech industries would be hit extremely hard. Scotland and Wales would probably suffer whilst England would benifit in real terms.
I could easily see Parliment trying to encourage Scotland to pull away from the mainland UK, because strangely enough, Scotland would become a massive drain on the economy because of its inability to raise enough taxes to support a large land area. The same would apply to N Wales.
It is a very important issue and should not be treated lightly.
This subject will affect the lives of the under 40's more than any other issue and yet most young people find it a total turnoff which is sad.
Regards
Mick....soon off to Greece who went Euro in February and is keen to see how it has affected them.
Unless my memory is playing tricks, have we not discussed this before.
It is absolutely essential (and inevitable)that we join the Euro over the long term.
Joining the Euro will put us on a CONSISTENT edge with European competitors, if say, when exporting to America.
The major problem is deciding when to join.
At present we have a base rate of 4%, 2%inflation with relatively good unemployment. If we were to join today, we would need to fix at todays rate and we would be under pressure to raise interest rates to maintain growth and low unemployment.
We would soon have to surrender our right to fix our own interest rates and this would pass to the EEC, who want a uniform rate across the board.
This would result in UK unemployment rising and we could easily head into a recession.
Therefore the conclusion is that entry or even alignment to the Euro is a mistake.
Conversly, if we do not join, we will be at risk from two major currencies.....the Dollar and the Euro.
We need the protection and long term stability that joining the Euro brings, but our current interst rates and inflation levels linked to GDP growth make joining at present most inadvisable.
The one thing that does irratate me about this subject is the fools who claim that we should not join because of the history of the Pound or that we should keep our sausages the same etc.
The decision should be based on financial considerations and nothing else.
When we do join, the winners in the UK would be service and financial industries, large scale high value add industries (Honda, Nissan etc)and also smaller high tech industries such as Naim.
The rural and low tech industries would be hit extremely hard. Scotland and Wales would probably suffer whilst England would benifit in real terms.
I could easily see Parliment trying to encourage Scotland to pull away from the mainland UK, because strangely enough, Scotland would become a massive drain on the economy because of its inability to raise enough taxes to support a large land area. The same would apply to N Wales.
It is a very important issue and should not be treated lightly.
This subject will affect the lives of the under 40's more than any other issue and yet most young people find it a total turnoff which is sad.
Regards
Mick....soon off to Greece who went Euro in February and is keen to see how it has affected them.
Posted on: 13 June 2002 by Paul Ranson
I was responding directly to the comment about the Euro and Naim or Linn. I don't see how it would directly help their export enterprises.
I'm opposed to joining the Euro as presently constituted because I am opposed to the trend towards federation without the protection of a federal constitution. This opposition is regardless of any short term economic benefits.
And yes we have discussed this before, but in a more sensible forum....
Paul
I'm opposed to joining the Euro as presently constituted because I am opposed to the trend towards federation without the protection of a federal constitution. This opposition is regardless of any short term economic benefits.
And yes we have discussed this before, but in a more sensible forum....
Paul
Posted on: 13 June 2002 by Mick P
Paul
Quote
And yes we have discussed this before, but in a more sensible forum....
What forum ?
Regards
Mick
Quote
And yes we have discussed this before, but in a more sensible forum....
What forum ?
Regards
Mick
Posted on: 13 June 2002 by Paul Ranson
One door down.
(Of course 'sensible' means that the forum is appropriate, rather than that the discussions here are insensible, although they are often nonsensical)
Paul
(Of course 'sensible' means that the forum is appropriate, rather than that the discussions here are insensible, although they are often nonsensical)
Paul
Posted on: 14 June 2002 by Andrew L. Weekes
quote:
The one thing that does irratate me about this subject is the fools who claim that we should not join because of the history of the Pound or that we should keep our sausages the same etc.
The decision should be based on financial considerations and nothing else.
Couldn't agree more, I can't stand the emotive rubbish spouted by many of the radio / TV regulars.
Frankly I couldn't give a stuff whether my notes have the Queen's head or the landlord of the Queen's head on them, providing my ability to earn / spend / save them is not detrimentally affected.
A.
Posted on: 14 June 2002 by Paul Ranson
quote:
providing my ability to earn / spend / save them is not detrimentally affected.
This is the key. And it's why EMU as currently operated in the context of the EU isn't acceptable.
Europe needs to become the 'United States of Europe' for EMU to work in the long term. That means that Prime Ministers become Governors and we elect others to European institutions rather than councils of ministers and appointed apparatchiks.
Paul
Posted on: 14 June 2002 by Mick P
Paul
You said..."Europe needs to become the 'United States of Europe' for EMU to work in the long term."
Basically I agree with you if by long term you mean at least 25 yrs.
Now comes the blunt question.
Would you recommend joining the Euro if it could be proven beyond any doubt that we would benifit financially. Would the concept of federalism still prevent you from joining even though you would improve your standard of living.
This is purely a hypothetical question...I am trying to see what drives you in your decision making process.
Regards
Mick
You said..."Europe needs to become the 'United States of Europe' for EMU to work in the long term."
Basically I agree with you if by long term you mean at least 25 yrs.
Now comes the blunt question.
Would you recommend joining the Euro if it could be proven beyond any doubt that we would benifit financially. Would the concept of federalism still prevent you from joining even though you would improve your standard of living.
This is purely a hypothetical question...I am trying to see what drives you in your decision making process.
Regards
Mick
Posted on: 14 June 2002 by Frank Abela
I'm ambivalent about the Euro. I see both sides of the argument. I think I am slowly forming the opinion that joining the Euro would be bad. My main reason for this is that I believe that:
The bigger the economy, the bigger the problems and the greater the inertia that impedes their resolution.
Regards,
Frank.
All opinions are my own and do not reflect the opinion of any organisations I work for, except where this is stated explicitly.
The bigger the economy, the bigger the problems and the greater the inertia that impedes their resolution.
Regards,
Frank.
All opinions are my own and do not reflect the opinion of any organisations I work for, except where this is stated explicitly.
Posted on: 14 June 2002 by Matthew T
Mick,
Given the current state of European economies I think the likelihood of higher interest rates is considerably higher if we remain outside the euro then if we join. The main euro economies are performing considerably worse then the UK.
With low unemployment and very high house prices it is quite probable that wages rises will increase and their will be more pressure on inflation and theirfore higher interest rates. However, if we join we are likely to keep low interest rates (constrained by the poorly performing European economies) and though inflation will be moderated by more transparant competition from the continent it will still be a problem.
I hope you are not one of the 17,000?
Matthew
PS I am in favour of joining the Euro as soon as possible.
Given the current state of European economies I think the likelihood of higher interest rates is considerably higher if we remain outside the euro then if we join. The main euro economies are performing considerably worse then the UK.
With low unemployment and very high house prices it is quite probable that wages rises will increase and their will be more pressure on inflation and theirfore higher interest rates. However, if we join we are likely to keep low interest rates (constrained by the poorly performing European economies) and though inflation will be moderated by more transparant competition from the continent it will still be a problem.
I hope you are not one of the 17,000?
Matthew
PS I am in favour of joining the Euro as soon as possible.
Posted on: 14 June 2002 by Mick P
Matthew
European countries have a higher tolerance of unemployment than what the UK is prepared to accept.
If we align or join the Euro, we will be forced to raise interest rates if we want to keep inflation and hence long term unemployment down down.
Long term we need to join, but the timing is one hell of a problem.
Frank has a valid point about a large, cumbersome and unmanageable economy and this in itself is a good call for a unified currency whilst retaining national control.
No I am not one of the 17000. I wish I was. The lure of retirement is strong.
Unfortunately I was told by my Director that I can expect to be hounding suppliers until I am 60.
Regards
Mick
European countries have a higher tolerance of unemployment than what the UK is prepared to accept.
If we align or join the Euro, we will be forced to raise interest rates if we want to keep inflation and hence long term unemployment down down.
Long term we need to join, but the timing is one hell of a problem.
Frank has a valid point about a large, cumbersome and unmanageable economy and this in itself is a good call for a unified currency whilst retaining national control.
No I am not one of the 17000. I wish I was. The lure of retirement is strong.
Unfortunately I was told by my Director that I can expect to be hounding suppliers until I am 60.
Regards
Mick
Posted on: 14 June 2002 by Alex S.
Those not in favour of the Euro should remember that our Queen, bless her, is not getting any younger. New Sterling is going to look rather past it soon - actually, the old dear's looking well past it on the 50p I'm looking at now.
Alex
Alex
Posted on: 14 June 2002 by Andrew Randle
Mick said:
In case you are wondering, that's what the Russians are saying too.... I'll see you at the bread queue.
I believe they've done rather well out of this currency subsidisation.
Andrew
Andrew Randle
Currently in the "Linn Binn"
quote:
It is absolutely essential (and inevitable)that we join the Euro over the long term.
In case you are wondering, that's what the Russians are saying too.... I'll see you at the bread queue.
quote:
Mick....soon off to Greece who went Euro in February and is keen to see how it has affected them.
I believe they've done rather well out of this currency subsidisation.
Andrew
Andrew Randle
Currently in the "Linn Binn"
Posted on: 14 June 2002 by Steve Toy
quote:
If we align or join the Euro, we will be forced to raise interest rates if we want to keep inflation and hence long term unemployment down down.
Our base rates are still a little higher than those in the Eurozone, so by joining the Euro, our rates would then be theirs - lower!
By joining, we would no longer be able to fix our own rates to adapt to the rigours of our own economy, and this may then put pressure on inflation if the Eurozone rate were then too low for our own needs.
However, in the coming months, I foresee that interest rate convergence may occur between Sterling and Eurozone as our economic growh remains as sluggish as that of Eurozone.
I should hope that if/when this necessary economic convergence takes pace, we will simply jump the Sterling ship and join the Euro without recourse to a referendum which would be subject to ordinary people rejecting joining on jingoistic/sentimental grounds rather than economic ones.
Regards,
Steve.
The proof of the pudding...
Posted on: 14 June 2002 by Jonathan Gorse
I agree that joining the Euro would be good news for stability, however inability to tailor economic and monetary policies to UK requirements could cause us to join (rather than escape) the European recession.
As one of the stronger economies we have most to lose and least to gain from joining. I was watching Jeremy Clarkson in Europe last night and he quoted the example of fishing subsidies to Spanish fishermen which are ten times the level of subsidy given to the UK fishing industry. In short Cornish fishermen are being taxed to subsidise Spanish fishermen who are plundering our fishing stocks. This sort of thing is a nonsense.
I couldn't care less who's head is on my currency and I enjoy the convenience of just exchanging for one currency on European trips. I also hope that joining the Euro-zone will constrain the financial importance of London and hence the numbers and salaries of city types who continuously drive up South East house prices beyond the reach of mere mortals like teachers, Doctors, nurses etc.
Jonathan
[This message was edited by Jonathan Gorse on SATURDAY 15 June 2002 at 07:22.]
As one of the stronger economies we have most to lose and least to gain from joining. I was watching Jeremy Clarkson in Europe last night and he quoted the example of fishing subsidies to Spanish fishermen which are ten times the level of subsidy given to the UK fishing industry. In short Cornish fishermen are being taxed to subsidise Spanish fishermen who are plundering our fishing stocks. This sort of thing is a nonsense.
I couldn't care less who's head is on my currency and I enjoy the convenience of just exchanging for one currency on European trips. I also hope that joining the Euro-zone will constrain the financial importance of London and hence the numbers and salaries of city types who continuously drive up South East house prices beyond the reach of mere mortals like teachers, Doctors, nurses etc.
Jonathan
[This message was edited by Jonathan Gorse on SATURDAY 15 June 2002 at 07:22.]
Posted on: 15 June 2002 by Andrew Randle
quote:
I also hope that joining the Euro-zone will constrain the financial importance of London and hence the numbers and salaries of city types who continuously drive up South East house prices beyond the reach of mere mortals like teachers, Doctors, nurses etc.
Interesting thought Jonathan. With that and an emphasis on engineering skills I may be able to afford a pad in Knightsbridge.
Andrew
Andrew Randle
Currently in the "Linn Binn"
Posted on: 15 June 2002 by Chris West
Well I think i'm with Mick on this one...from my POV it would seem that if one subtracts any sentimental value attached to the notes and coins themselves, the financial repercussions of joining are the only consideration that matters.
I remember all the hoo-hahs that went on back in '72 when the currency switched to metric...and not to mention feet, inches, and pounds etc. So I'm not surprised some people are getting upset about the Euro alignment. Anyways, the Notes and coins can still remain British by design correct? Only the currency denominations need to be aligned.
Chris West
Naim USA.
I remember all the hoo-hahs that went on back in '72 when the currency switched to metric...and not to mention feet, inches, and pounds etc. So I'm not surprised some people are getting upset about the Euro alignment. Anyways, the Notes and coins can still remain British by design correct? Only the currency denominations need to be aligned.
Chris West
Naim USA.
Posted on: 15 June 2002 by Thomas K
quote:
Anyways, the Notes and coins can still remain British by design correct
Not really. The basic design is always the same, but there are some elements - the image on the back of coins and some details on the notes - that are country-specific (you have to know, though - it doesn't say the name of the country anywhere).
I'm not saying this is the case here, but in general, discussions about the euro have been governed mostly by sentimental arguments. Six months ago, a surprisingly large number of people in my country, for instance, predicted how the economy would go down the tube once the euro arrived - they had completely missed the fact that, to ALL intents and purposes, they had already been living with the euro (without the tangible currency) for three years.
I simply cannot believe that people get upset about what it says on their bank notes (what next - collecting stamps?). The only thing I'm upset about is that they failed to omit the one and two cent pieces - worthless encumbrance that serves only to maintain the 9.99 myth.
Thomas
Posted on: 15 June 2002 by Mick P
Steve
You said quote "Our base rates are still a little higher than those in the Eurozone, so by joining the Euro, our rates would then be theirs - lower!
You need to read the rule book which in all fairness is damm time consuming.
We do not have have to use a consolidated base rate, although that would be a long term objective.
Our problem is that we need the stability of the Euro but the problem is deciding when to join.
Although I believe that we need to join, it would be folly to do so at present because it would impose an unnecessary strain on interest rates or unemployment...one of them would have to go up.
My opinion is that we are in no hurry, they want us in, so lets do it when it suits us. But long term we need to join. The main thing to to keep the decision making based on financial advantage and nothing else.
Sorry this has to be my last reply....driving off to Gatwick fairly soon.
Regards
Mick
You said quote "Our base rates are still a little higher than those in the Eurozone, so by joining the Euro, our rates would then be theirs - lower!
You need to read the rule book which in all fairness is damm time consuming.
We do not have have to use a consolidated base rate, although that would be a long term objective.
Our problem is that we need the stability of the Euro but the problem is deciding when to join.
Although I believe that we need to join, it would be folly to do so at present because it would impose an unnecessary strain on interest rates or unemployment...one of them would have to go up.
My opinion is that we are in no hurry, they want us in, so lets do it when it suits us. But long term we need to join. The main thing to to keep the decision making based on financial advantage and nothing else.
Sorry this has to be my last reply....driving off to Gatwick fairly soon.
Regards
Mick
Posted on: 15 June 2002 by belsizepark
If Britain were to join the Euro, then at the time Britain joined short term interest rates in the UK would have to be to all intense and purposes identical to that of the rest of European countries which are already in the Euro block. If it were not the case then there would be a huge financial arbitrage.
take this as an example. Imagine short term interest rates in Germany were 4% and Britain joined the Euro and short term interest rates in the UK were 5%. Those savvy traders in the City, Wall Street and in hedge funds would immediately borrow billions of Euros at 4% in Germany and invest them at 5% in the UK. They would then make a quick 1% annualised on as many billions as the they physically could trade within credit limits etc which would be a risk free huge profit. This sort of thing unfortunately is unlikely happen and short term interest rates in the UK will mirror those of core Europe.
In all likelihood that rate will be set by the European Central Bank. This is similar to the fact that interest rates in Scotland are the same as in England, the notes may be different but the Bank of England under the Monetary Policy Committee sets the rate and that rate is the applicable rate in both Scotland and England.
Regards
Belsizepark
take this as an example. Imagine short term interest rates in Germany were 4% and Britain joined the Euro and short term interest rates in the UK were 5%. Those savvy traders in the City, Wall Street and in hedge funds would immediately borrow billions of Euros at 4% in Germany and invest them at 5% in the UK. They would then make a quick 1% annualised on as many billions as the they physically could trade within credit limits etc which would be a risk free huge profit. This sort of thing unfortunately is unlikely happen and short term interest rates in the UK will mirror those of core Europe.
In all likelihood that rate will be set by the European Central Bank. This is similar to the fact that interest rates in Scotland are the same as in England, the notes may be different but the Bank of England under the Monetary Policy Committee sets the rate and that rate is the applicable rate in both Scotland and England.
Regards
Belsizepark
Posted on: 15 June 2002 by Steve Toy
quote:
We do not have have to use a consolidated base rate, although that would be a long term objective.
Once we are in the Euro, the BoE will no longer exist to alter base rates here in the UK.
There will be one currency with one uniform base interest rate for the whole of the Eurozone - as there is for those countries already in.
With the Euro, it is not like ERM of the early nineties - there are no half-measures, thank goodness!
If we could still set our own interest rates and yet were part of the Euro, then the value of "our Euro" would fluctuate against that of the Euro used in the rest of Eurozone.
Somehow, I don't think so...
Must dispel one right-wing myth though: once you are in, you can't get out.
Of course you can, in much the same way that a customer can close an account with a high-street bank - you simply take out what you put in regarding your input share of currency/gold reserves at their current market value.
Otherwise, Eurozone would have to take up arms against any nation wishing to leave in much the same way that Milosovic tried against Slovenia - the first break-away republic from the former Yugoslavia.
Regards,
Steve.
The proof of the pudding...
[This message was edited by Steven Toy on SUNDAY 16 June 2002 at 05:52.]