Thoughts on Upgraditus!

What is the point of percentage differences? For example, if I earn 10% more money this year compared to last, should I expect to be 10% happier? If I spend twice as much money on a stereo, should it give me twice as much musical pleasure? Even if we apply the law of diminshing returns, how much should it diminish? Is it 80/20, 90/10, or 99/1?

Prior to my current CDS2/52/2*135/Albions/Mana, I was often displeased with various things in my system (not loud enough, not "real" enough, etc.); now I'm almost never displeased, and that's a good thing.

So I'm satisfied with my system, even though it cost an obscene amount of money. Ultimately, if you can't reconcile yourself with that conundrum, then perhaps you should downgrade until the the pain of spending lots of money is balanced with the pain of listening to a lesser system.

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

Just a thought
Cheers
Peter

Now 3 month on I listen predominantly to CD but take CDS2 for granted and yearn for NAP500 and NAC552 preamp!

[It does bring me back to earth when I listen to the Arcam/Nait2/Kans in the back room though]

I started with a 62/140, now I have an ARO, CDS1, 82, 2 hicaps, and a 250, having bought and sold a 72.

I've done each change individually, and comparing the new with the old, I always felt I got more than my money's worth in musical enjoyment. I syill would like a 52, but I'm in no hurry since I get sublime and very satisfying noises out of the set up now.

I did not feel that the Cirkus was a great buy; I would have taken it back but I didn't want to give up the LP12 for the 2nd surgery. Also, I first auditioned an 82 with one hicap and a 140, and I took it back - it was better, and I really liked its stunning speed (compared to my 72), but I felt it cost much more than the increased value.

Maybe I'm happier than you because I listen to a lot of LPs - or maybe we're both at the end of our upgrade quest because of some combination of poorer ears, increased maturity, or satisfaction with what we've got.

If you want to upgrade your life, trade in the 24" for a 13" B&W TV....:-)

Regards.

Phil

Well if you really want it then here you are: I think you missed the right parameter. It’s not “sound quality an und für sich” that matters but rather TIME: how long you are able to listen to music without any stress. Unfortunately I don’t still have a CDS2 but even so I’m sure your system now IS 3 times better if you try to measure it in minutes and hours.

Other (but negative) parameter is the number of CDs from your collection that sound unbearable or at least distinctly unpleasant. In this respect, again, there must be valid a ratio 3:1 or even better.

graphoman

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I did expect to hear a bigger improvment than I'm currently getting and really did expect a 'jaw dropping' experience when the CDS2 arrived.

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My CDS2 was an ex-demo from the former Naim shop here in town, so perhaps break-in wasn't required. I found it sounded stupendous, right out of the box. I almost couldn't believe how much better it was.

In fact, my best friend's wife (who is as enamoured with stereos as much as my wife, a.k.a. NOT ), felt it necessary to comment after the arrival of my CDS2. She said she never felt that my system was overly impressive, from 3.5/Flat/102/140/Albion through CDX/82/Super/250/Albion. However, when she heard the CDS2, she finally thought she was hearing something special. (This was during a party, and many other people commented occasionally regarding the great sound.) BTW, this was also their first opportunity to hear my system on Mana, so it probably shares some of the blame.

Although I appreciate quality, it's pain that tends to motivate me the most. Therefore, it was displeasure with my system that drove me to upgrade. That "I can't stand it!" response presents a very good argument for upgrading. Ironically, I'll often listen to my secondary system and think that it's good enough. Yes it's more susceptible to recording quality, volume restrictions, etc., but still sounds great most of the time. Intriguingly, the fact that my main stereo is fantastic makes it much easier for me to be satisfied with the rest of my systems.

In the end, though, music enjoyment is usually about the right song at the right time. Driving along and listening to great tunes from my "crappy" car stereo can give me extreme pleasure.

I hope you can reconcile your "value" issue, Peter. It really has nothing to do with the music.

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

One thing I found, and this applies especially to the CDS2, is that it is not the out of the box 'wow' factor which really matters but the ability to please long term. I am fed up with hi-fi tarts and one-night stands. I'm in for the long haul, listening quite loud for about eight hours a day, six days a week. The LP12 and CDS2 are eminently satisfying in this regard. To find something musical and unfatiguing which can play loud and with realism is a big and therefore an expensive ask.

I am not rich but I soon discovered that those twin parameters of VFM and diminishing returns are, in most ways, an irrelevance. If we have this passion for expensive hi-fi we must, partially at least, follow the rules of supply and demand. A certain circumnavigation can include piles of Mana, buying second hand, building your own where possible, mutual back-scratching, hard work, charm, brown-nosing, blah, blah.

I've done all these things and it would still cost an unthinkable sum to replace my system but I can say hand on heart that I'm very happy with it. It plays music, all music, and, now that I am happy, I will choose not to think about the money.

I too have a second system which sounds pleasant but every time I power up the big beastie I'm thrilled by it!

Alex

BTW Mike must be happy too since he spends so much less time here!

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BTW Mike must be happy too since he spends so much less time here!

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Perhaps. I find many of the conversations uninteresting and often pointless. I'm also turned off by many of the contributors.

Has the forum changed, or am I just less of a stereo geek now.

BTW, my recording studio's coming along nicely. There's a great forum over at...

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

It doesn't seem right that you should be having the feelings you've got at present. (Perhaps it really is the CDP being too new.)

As Mike points out, the amount of money we spend on this stuff is ridiculous by normal standards, but what counts is whether you can sit down one night and say, "Yes, it's worth it!" I've become so accustomed to great sound that I sometimes sit there and wonder what all the fuss is about ... but then all I have to do is put on a CD I haven't listened to for a long time, only to realize how much more music is extracted than when I listened to the same CD on Technics/JVC.

Could it be a setup issue? Sometimes a "modest" system, when all the circumstances are right, can be absolutely riveting. At my dealer's I recently heard a Classik playing with Katans - it was fabulous. My best mate has a Naim system that cost half as much as mine, but his room has way better acoustics than mine, and it never sounds as if anything was lacking. Perhaps everything is just perfect in Matt's setup.

It can take a lot to get your system to play the way you expect it to play. I found getting a good balance between components can be crucial (my bare CDX simply did not go well with my 52 - had I not known that I would get an XPS soon, I would have preferred CDX/82!). Rooms, along with setup, can be fatal (moved house in the summer and was extremely unhappy, invested loads in various "improvements" and tried all kinds of crazy stuff ... it didn't sound right again until a very kind forum member looked at a detailed plan of my room and told me to try moving the speakers a couple of inches out). You're probably more experienced than me, but maybe your now "bigger, better, faster" system is being held back by something very trivial.

Thomas

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Could I live with this?

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I have upgraded quite a bit this year but it was all within my financial capability and each upgrade produced the desired effect.

My long term plan is Fraim,NAP 500 and NBL's. Then thats it.

I would not say it's an addiction because I am perfectly happy with what I have got, but as I have the means to upgrade, I will.

I intend to buy myself a Leica Noctilux lens this year which is the same price as a CDS11, so I can be diverted to other things.

Years ago,when I worked for the M.O.D, I was in charge of buying tanks from Alvis in Coventry, and I have always lusted buying a mid 1960's three litre saloon. The TD model was a superb car, much better than a jag, so I may well treat myself to one. If I do, then the NAP500/NBL's may have to wait a while.

At the end of the day, you worked for your money and you have the right to spend it as you wish, as long as, of course, the wife is allowed to buy food etc.

Regards

Mick

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I intend to buy myself a Leica Noctilux lens this year which is the same price as a CDS11, so I can be diverted to other things.

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Unless you're about to specialize in twilight street photography or the interiors of smokey blues bars in Chicago you might want to consider a more mundane 50mm lens. I haven't seen your work but your earlier descriptions suggest a 50 f/1 lens might be overkill. More to the point, it's a generally accepted photographic truism that heads sprouting lamp posts can be taken with optics far less esoteric than the Noctilux. ;-)

Joe... who picked up a mint 55mm f/1.2 Nikkor for $150.

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heads sprouting lamp posts can be taken with optics far less esoteric than the Noctilux

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As could be said for Sarah Brightman (et al.) and the CDS2.

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

P.S. I bit the bullet and lovingly gave my wife the new Cher album. I was quite relieved when she decided that she didn't like it.

The odd lampost does no one any harm.

I did have a rather embarrassing pic of a horse that I took.

When it was developed, I noticed another horse in the background in a state, of shall we say, arousal. No way did I show that one to Mrs Mick.

Regards

Mick

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When it was developed, I noticed another horse in the background in a state, of shall we say, arousal.

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You should send an enlargement to TF. I'm sure he'd appreciate your photographic oversight.

Joe

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Originally posted by Peter Gear:
The question I am asking myself is: - is what I'm now hearing worth the extra £12k or so? The answer at the moment (with the CDS2 admittedly only 3 weeks old) is no.

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Peter,

when my mate Juan Zenuff/J.N. upgraded from CDX/XPS to CDSII I was very disappointed initially.

Even three or four weeks into the burn-in I would have taken the CDX/XPS in preference. Note, not that the CDSII wasn't worth the extra - the X/X was better.

I bought his CDX, but I have now also upgraded to a CDSII, and it's fantastic.

In the end, I think that Juan had got his system tweaked up so that it worked as well as possible with the CDX (and 82, at the time). There comes a time in every system's evolution where the old setup rules don't work.

Where a CDX/72 may well benefit from an artificial boost in some way - e.g. the boom-and-tizz of Sound Org stands, this just over-eggs a CDSII system. You need to find ways to allow the natural quality to shine through.

Juan had to move his speakers, the old location just showed up room problems that had never been an issue before.

For me, one of the most important was to go down a non-ferrous route, including removing LP12 from being too close to system (fixed by a Stageline). This brought a lot more music out. At least you have Fraim!

Mains is very important. Of course.

The room is supremely important. Maybe the extra clarity is being lost in a clutter of reverberation in the room? This has been a big struggle for me. My room has now been tamed to a considerable extent, but it still has a big effect.

Has your dealer visited you recently? Given the amount that you've spent, I would suggest it is time for him to earn his money - pull your system right to bits, and re-build it from the ground up, including re-doing the Fraim. He may also have ideas as to what else is causing your problems. Mine listened for 10 mins and diagnosed the room.

Probably best to let the CDS toast for another few weeks before doing this, though. Once it's been running for 4-6 weeks, try turning it off for a couple of hours. Sounds barmy, doesn't it, but it should tighten things up somewhat. At least one person has reported benefit in doing this several times (over a period of months, I think).

cheers, Martin

P.S. consider yourself lucky - in my darkest days I have come back from friends with CD3/72/250/good MA speakers and wished my CDSII/52/135/active Isobariks sounded anything like as musical.

Those days are behind me now.

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Originally posted by Mr Tibbs.:
I switched it off overnight and after the initial warm up it was definitely sounding better.

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For me, it just tightened everything up nicely. Definately a forum 'insider' tweek.

cheers, Martin

The main goal of my listening is to hear the emotion in the music, to be moved. My current setup is so much better than my earlier equipment that I can hear the emotion much better. It can get very intense, for one thing, and that sometimes requires a rest between pieces.

Also, with music getting through so much better, it often seems sacreligious to go on to listen to a 2nd piece of music without taking the time to savor what I've just heard. It's no longer necessary to follow one disk with another to get my musical hit.

That's why I'm in remission for upgraditis.

Phil

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Unfortunately my system is in storage until me and my beloved can find a detached house to live as we are living in her flat at the moment and the whole block is going to complain about a nutcase bashing his 135's into a pair of Dynaudio Contour 3.3's

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You don't have to play super loud, and the neighbours are more likely to complain about washing machines or drilling into reinforced concrete

Peter

I've found that these two upgrades weren't dramatic, but 'refining'. They show up great recordings as better than before, and lay bear compromised recordings. The poor recordings are listenable, but what the HiCap has done has reduced the 'echo' in the bass so that rhythm and interplay in the, er, lower regions are more clearly in focus.

I can see myself going for something like a CDX/82/Hi/140 system as ideal for my environment. (so who's saying keep it simple )

Peter

Thanks to you all
Peter

Perhaps its the XPS/Supercaps etc that need more burning in as I'm using mine with CDSPS

When I installed my CDS1 this summer, I was distinctly underwhelmed fro about 2 weeks. At first I thought it needed warmup, but even after 2 weeks on, it didn't sound as good as it should have.

Doh! I had installed the Burndy in the incorrect direction. I powered the CDS down, reversed the Burndy, and powered it up, figuring I'd have to wait several hours before I'd hear the difference.

Nope, the improvement was instantaneous - yes the machine needed some more warm-up, but the sound gained the smoothness and coherence that I wanted from the CDS.

Bottom line: Peter, are you sure the burndy is installed correctly?

While every bit of gear higher up the Naim food chain has outperformed that underneath, the incremental benefit has been very, very difficult for me to quantify. This is especially noticable when you stop doing all the A/B demming and just sit down and listen to some music. When I do this, any combination of kit I choose to listen to sounds great to my ears. If it all sounds great then why not go for the cheaper option?

Over the 28 or so years I've been listening to hi-fi I've often downgraded (eg from 12S/SNAPS/160 to Nait/Kans) because at that particular time my perception of value has changed and Ive chosen to put my resources elsewhere.

I should temper this by stating that this has not been my experience at the lowest point of the food-chain where increments are more affordable. For example, I do think a 72 is much better value than a 42 but this is very easy to quantify because the difference is only about 150 quid s/h. In contrast a s/h 82 will cost you a grand more than a 72. Of course if you've only got 150quid to spend on a preamp then a s/h 42 it is (and youll get a damn fine amp for the money).

Steve

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Originally posted by Phil Barry:
I powered the CDS down, reversed the Burndy, and powered it up, figuring I'd have to wait several hours before I'd hear the difference.

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Phil,

you see, you powered it down. Maybe a minute or two is enough?

See above.

cheers, Martin