Thoughts on Upgraditus!

Posted by: Peter Gear on 02 January 2002

Dear All

Thought I would start the new year year by giving you my thoughts on the perennial problem of the upgrade syndrome!

I started with Naim about 8/9 years ago now with a CDI/NAT02/72/180/Linn Kelidhs. Cost? - about £5k including a soundstyle stand which was thrown in with the deal.
It all sounded very fine and I was a very happy chap for a few years until I found I had a few pounds to spend and started on the upgrade trail with the aim of getting the classic system CDS2/52/250/SBLs). I found myself saying to myself that it could all be better if I did this or that. So as a result I have, over the last few years, upgraded towards the 'classic system' with CDS2/82/hicap/250 all on Fraim and with SBL's. Cost? - about £17k! (still 52 and supercap to go you notice).

My son Matt who became converted to the Naim sound a few years ago benefited from this and bought my 180, became the recipient of the CDI (as a xmas pressie this year from me when I bought the CDS2) and bought one of the few remaining 72's last year - he also has my old soundstyle stand. So Matt now has the same system as I first started out with those long years ago i.e. a CDI/72/180 - his speakers are avon castles however.

I can now carry out A/B comparisons on what I had started out with and what I now have!
The question I am asking myself is: - is what I'm now hearing worth the extra £12k or so? The answer at the moment (with the CDS2 admittedly only 3 weeks old) is no. My old system (sorry Matts new system) really sounds superb, but no better than when I had it, and although arguably (in my set up) there is more space around instruments and their location is rather more defined I feel slightly let down. What I'm hearing is not more than 3 times better than previously. There is clearly the effect of diminishing returns however I would expect say a 50% improvement for the 350% increase in cost of the set up. Any one any thoughts?

Anyway my future upgrade to 52 and maybe a NAT01 is on hold at present until I resolve my thoughts on all this. The money required for an 52/supercap etc would buy a nice plasma screen with all the cinema surround sound goodies. Now that would be clear upgrade path over my presnt 24inch tele.

Regards to all and a happy new year
Peter

Posted on: 03 January 2002 by Martin Payne
quote:
Originally posted by Peter Gear:
For the first time last night I began to hear things not heared previously via the CDI. For example I could hear for the first time individual voices and breathing quite clearly amongst other choir members. Quite thrilling and the sort of thing that happens in live music and as I said previously the separations of voices was much better defined. The neck hairs did start to curl! So it all may be beginning to happen


Peter,

when it's nicely run in the CDSII just plays the whole of every note, by comparison, everything else just plays a superficial version of it.

You will not really understand what I mean by this until you hear it for yourself.

Once you've locked onto it, you really miss it when listening to anything else.

cheers, Martin

Posted on: 03 January 2002 by Martin Payne
quote:
Originally posted by Bosh:
Must say I didnt notice the difference with my CDS2 upgrade. It was powered down 3 days in a row 5 weeks in by an oaf and his JCB down the road.

Perhaps its the XPS/Supercaps etc that need more burning in as I'm using mine with CDSPS


I am also using a CDPS.

cheers, Martin

Posted on: 04 January 2002 by Peter Gear
quote:
you see, you powered it down. Maybe a minute or two is enough?


I powered down over last night and switched on this morning. Will give it a work out tonight. The CDS2 is 4 weeks old today!

Cheers
Peter

Posted on: 04 January 2002 by Alex S.
An excellent set of posts from Martin.

I urge anyone thinking of upgrading boxes to address the mains and the room first; then add the boxes and find out what they are truly capable of.

With regard to all the other tweaks (and I've tried a fair few), I don't want to sound like a smug git, but by the time you're at the CDS2 level I find most of them an irrelevance.

Put your stuff on a good neutral support that is level and rigid and enjoy the music.

Alex

Posted on: 04 January 2002 by Peter Gear
many thanks for the thoughtful post.
I may have given the impression that all my upgrades have not given the sonic improvement I expected. This is not the case. The SBL's gave the biggest improvment in overall clarity and punch (I love them) followed by the 82/hicap and then the 250. The Fraims gave the least improvement. (A similar lack of impovement to Mana it has to be said but they do look the part).
No my main reason for posting was that the CDS2, initially anyway, has not given me the immediate and obvious gain over the CDI I had expected. This made me feel rather dissatified. I then started thinking about system cost effectiveness when listening to my sons system (CDI/72/180 castle.avons) which apart from the avons instead of keilidhs was identical to my initial naim system. My system IS 'better' in all aspects than my sons but not 3 times better.
I guess I should not think along these lines after all the law of diminishing returns certainly comes into play here as well as individuals wants/desires. However I did pose the question earlier as to whether - if you were to hear a £17k naim system against what you could afford , £5k's worth in my case 8 years ago - anyone would not be tempted along the upgrade trail and settle for what they had. Any answer would be very subjective I know. Anyway Naim do the upgrade path so well dont they? You can do it incrementally in stages sir as you can afford it!
My Fraim is very level and securely installed with the boxes set up as you suggest. The NAPSC is underneath the 250 on the floor so 3 levels away from the 82 but could be moved further away. The cables have been dressed away from each other but I do know that the burndy lead touches the wall so will try and do something about that.
At the end of the day I am beginning to believe I
was expecting too much initially with the CDS2.

Thanks for your time Stallion
Cheers
Peter

Posted on: 04 January 2002 by Alex S.
Is Stallion's Ferrari Testosterone 14 times better than my Golf?

Alex

Posted on: 04 January 2002 by naimless!
I agree with a lot of the posts here, I've had a lot of help from the forum and my dealer having recently upgraded from cd3/nait to cdx/xps/102/napsc/180/hi-cap and assumed I would be blown away...when I set up my old system I sometimes wonder why I bothered clearing my bank account!!! but...the problem for me is that all naim kit is excellant, and sometimes i have to disconnect power supplies etc just for comparitve purposes and then you really hear what you are missing, or what you've got! It can sometimes be a specific recording where you almost feel the breath of the artist (with naim kit, hopefully they have brushed their teeth!) pedro
Posted on: 04 January 2002 by graphoman
You said: “(Finally, are your SBL's placed very close to rear walls?) ...AND GRILLS ON.”

Are you sure of it? Would you tell me, please, more about that? (Other’s opinions are wellcome as well.)

graphoman

Posted on: 06 January 2002 by Peter Gear
for the tips.
Something seems to have worked!!
Have spent the weekend tidying cables i.e. keeping the mains leads away from signal cables and having the signal leads looping gently. I also made sure that the burndy was not touching anything! I also switched the CDS2 off overnight.

These all helped i'm sure but the biggest improvement came when i repositioned the NAPSC as far from the 82 as the leads would allow. Previously I had put it underneath the rack i.e. under the 250. It has been like this since I bought the 82! so would account for my not having got the improvment I expected each time I upgraded. The 82 was my first upgrade!
The other thing I discovered is that I'm seated too far from the speakers (about 14 feet away from the SBL's which are 6 feet apart ). The whole soundstage improves when i move to about 8 feet away.
Any way I'm much happier with what I'm hearing now and look forward to continual running in of the CDS2.
Thanks for the help Stallion and all you others out there. Very much appreciated.

Cheers all
Peter

Posted on: 06 January 2002 by graphoman
so with grills on... It’s somwhat embarrassing for me since any speaker up to now sounded better without grill for my ears... nevertheless, with SBLs I have tried it just in the early days when I still got a modest CD player. Well, I’ll repeatedly try the grills but first I want to acquire some better equipment stand. Anyway, thanks for the tip.

graphoman

Posted on: 06 January 2002 by John
My 2 cents:

From my experience I have found that sometimes an upgrade requires a shift in how you listen to music. I found being satisfied with the source the most difficult. Listening to the CDS2 was a bit of a shock for me because I didn't like 100% of what I heard. Moving over the vinyl has been very satisfying so much so that I prefered my P9/52/135's/SBL to the CDS2/52/500/NBL I recently heard. From this experience I have no interest in changing my power amp or speakers.

I am putting a Prefix on my P9 and assuming it doesn't reveal any problems I am staying put.

John

Posted on: 07 January 2002 by Martin Payne
quote:
Originally posted by Stallion:

Did you listen to the CDS2/52/500/NBL at last years London show?


Stallion,

do you mean the show at Novotel in September 2001? Weren't Naim using Allae's then? Admittedly then do look like a cut-down NBL from a distance, and it was a biggish room, but still...

cheers, Martin

Posted on: 07 January 2002 by Martin Payne
You're welcome.

cheers, Martin

Posted on: 07 January 2002 by John
Stallion:

No, it wasn't the London show. It was a show at my local dealer in Vancouver, Canada. There were different manufactures there and Naim had the best room in the place. Sonically it was very impressive but my system at home is more musically enjoyable. I have been noticing the differences between TTs and CD players more and more because I am normalizing my ears to vinyl as this is all I am listening to now. BTW I'm using the Benz M2 cartridge.

Take care,
John