TT – To Buy or Not to Buy – That is the question

I'm with Rob on this one, 'source first' and all that.

I am not a dogmatic 'source first' person but you will really need an LP12, Lingoed, with Ekos and a good cartridge to match the cds1 (or some similar set-up). Remember, that at today's prices a new cds1 would set you back a theoretical £5k. You need IMHO to budget a similar sum for the TT and attachments. You might even think about spending a bit more, rather than less, so that when you swap the cds1 for a cdsii, you still keep playing records.

But why are you considering a TT ? Do you have a large collection of lps ? There is not yet a massive library of new lps on the market and Naim have made it plain that they don't see a market for this musical storage system.

Cheers

Don

Why do you think you might want a TT, as obviously you are not sure!?

Do you have (or have access to) a large LP collection?

What do you want from the TT - do you just want the facility to listen occasionally to records, or are you expecting it to become the primariy source?

I am listening to a very old album on my LP12 at the moment, but I have not bought any new vinyl in quite some time - although I have acquired some s/h. Now that I have a CD that I am very happy to listen to I tend to buy music on CD.

If I didn't already have my TT and my records I'm not convinced I'd buy one, even tho' I love it.

Having said that, if you are buying I agree with Rob Holt about the level of TT - and IMHO your system is pleading for an LP12/geddon/Aro plus a cartridge to suit your tastes.

Chris

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...you will really need an LP12, Lingoed, with Ekos and a good cartridge to match the cds1...

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You might find that. Alternatively, you might prefer almost any turntable. Or you might even prefer the CDS1 to every turntable. It's like that with LP versus CD - there's only one way to find out.

I find it difficult to believe that a good pre-amp can make a turntable sound worse than it would with a lesser one, although I appreciate that this has been the received wisdom for the last 25 years. I have never been able to find an example of it.

--Jeremy

i think this is what they refer to as "revealing". i agree with you that you cannot blindly apply this principle. there was a time when i borrowed nac82 for a weekend -- everything i played through it sounded better, including radio in the form of a yamaha tuner and some very cassettes i had recorded when i was at college.

however, if the t/t is not very weel behaved at freq extremes, a good wide bandwidth pre-amp might make it sound worse as you would then hear the defective freq extremes, all other things being equal.

whether this issue would arise in the specific instance of p9 vs p25, i dunno -- advise from people who have owned both t/t's is worth paying attention to.

enjoy

ken

The reason why I am down this path is because of the consistent opinion that the vinyl medium outperforms the CD medium. Many people with CDS2s and the Linn CD12 state their TTs easily outperform the CD players. I know many of the differences are just that "different". This has made me curious about TTs. If the goal of CD players is presenting a more analogue signal, then why not jump into a medium that already is analogue. I now understand this importance as the player will display a much wider range of emotion in the music. This was my logic in starting the process.

The question I don't know is how high do I have to jump? I have about 200 LPs from 20 years ago but my taists have changed. I primarily listen to jazz like Miles Davis and alot of his material is being reissued on LP now. If the TT can render a wider range of emotion I think this gain might be significant for my jazz listening. If I have to go for a P9 or Linn LP12 and just receive a different presentation I will drop the whole idea. I am VERY happy with my CDS1 and it continually amazes me at well it renders the old jazz recordings.

Will a TT provide a wider range of emotion and expression or are the gains just different? It sounds like the P25 is out of the question but $5,000US is a huge chuck of change for a good TT but is it worthwhile?

John

If you were willing to part with $4kUS for a CDS1, you should be willing to part with at least that much for a turntable. A decent turntable is a signifcant upgrade from the CDS1. This is not like the arguments about the CDS1 vs CDS2. The differences are much larger with a TT.

This is a slam dunk. I doubt that it will take you more than 15 seconds of listening to hear it.

There's a decent LP12 on Audiogon
"http://gonmain.iserver.net/cgi-bin/cl.pl?anlgtabl&999174716&2&3&4&"
This with a phono card for your 52( about $200) would give you all you need to hear the difference. You can upgrade to a prefix later on if you want.

If you don't like it, which I very much doubt, you can re-sell it for what you paid.

For an LP12 though, you will need someone to set if up for you.

Beleive me, there is a reason for the horde of Analog Luddites out there.

Arthur Bye

I've had a P9 for 6 years now and well... I've still got it!

If you have lots of records go for the P9 (sorry, I don't like the Linn decks, sound a bit flabby IMHO!). The rega really is a good deck and i've yet to hear a CD player which I would say is better. It is a different sound and has great rythm and timing. Try and listen to one (not with Elys cartridge, minimum Exact). You might like it!
Sonof..

I could probably improve the quality of my CD player by jumping to a CDS2 or a Linn CD12 but I have no interest in chasing these improvement gains. I am in the analogue zone with my CDS1 and everything sounds great. I would like to jump into vinyl at a similar satisfaction level. I do not want to be motivated in to an upgrade because I need to resolve a problem.

My problem is I can't hear them in the store or at home. The LP12 I heard was not in a Naim system so it is very difficult to understand the player.

John

A used P9 with the right cartridge will have no problem getting you where you want to go. My P9 has a relatively fat/round earthy sounding Grado Reference on it and it still does the PRaT thing as good as a CDS1.

I've heard both the LP12 and the P9 and the P9 does the PRaT thing better than the LP12. The LP12 does the analog thing better than the P9.

Hmmm....... kind make it sound like the difference between a CDX/XPS and a CDS2.

Well anyway the P9 I have is better than any of my CD players and I find it pretty rare when a CD sounds better than the TT.

Go out and find a used P9 and enjoy!

Arthur By

How can a TT sound more analogue than another? Are you trying to say when TTs fail the decline in sound quality is similar in character as in CD players? CDS vs CDX/XPS. Or are you sying the presentation can vary, more PRaT vs round earth?

How would you characterize the sound as it fails on a TT?

Thanks
John

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The P25 will be revealed by your 52 for what it is - a good but flawed mid-priced deck.

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Oh no! This doesn't bode well for my upcoming Planar3/10x4mk2 into 52/250. Actually, I'm with the crowd that says the superior electronics make almost everything sound better. Yes they may be more revealing of small imperfections, but this is definitely tempered by the vast improvements in the performance.

The last really good turntable that I heard was Vuk's P9 on phase 3 compared to his CDX on Mana phase 2. Although the turntable was better than the CDX, it wasn't by much. In comparison, my CDS2 was blazing superior to my CDX (and that was with the CDS2 on a crap stand compared to the CDX on Mana phase 4).

With only this recent experience to judge vinyl vs. CD, I can only contend that I'm not a big sucker for the sound of LPs. Yes, they are wonderfully smooth and natural, but they definitely lack dynamics. A CD player's usual fault is a digital edginess, which the CDS2 has fully tamed, so I'm pretty much convinced that I'll prefer CDs on my CDS2 compared to vinyl on a good turntable. Until I hear a top-flight deck beat a CDS2, my opinion probably won't change

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

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A CD player's usual fault is a digital edginess, which the CDS2 has fully tamed, so I'm pretty much convinced that I'll prefer CDs on my CDS2 compared to vinyl on a good turntable.

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Mike,

This is not what most real vinyl freaks (well me certainly) dislike about the majority of CD players. Many years ago what you say certainly had a lot of truth, but even a budget CD player will give a reasonably civilised account of itself these days. Where CD usually screws up is so hard to define, but is so bleedin' obvious once you "get it". It’s a communication thing - a typical CD player will not get a musical performance to 'gel' properly, the individual strands remain somehow distant from one another. The musical whole sounds somewhat disembodied, and as a result the musicians sound disinterested and uninvolved. Its like getting the real Charles Mingus captured in full swing off vinyl, and a third rate cover version by a lesser band on CD. I am convinced this is why so many people go into a total upgrade frenzy - I am sure if their source was sufficient they would be far happier.

The CDS2 is definitely one of a really tiny minority of CD players that actually can communicate in a similar way to a good deck, which is great if you can afford the incredibly hefty price tag…

Tony.

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With only this recent experience to judge vinyl vs. CD, I can only contend that I'm not a big sucker for the sound of LPs. Yes, they are wonderfully smooth and natural, but they definitely lack dynamics.

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don't agree on this at all, depends too much on the original recording quality. EMI ASD pressings generally have monstrous dynamics, for example. A Rock recording like Tom Wait's 'Mule Variations' has cavernous sound and dynamics, the CD is but a mere imitation. Even a generally crap recording like Led Zep's Physical Graffitti is more believable from LP than CD.

But, I will concur that the LP does not always beat the CD for a particular recording, a case in point is the genrally high standard of Columbia Legacy's 'Kind of Blue' reissue from the original master tape, which easily beat a late Sony pressing. In my colelction I think that 98 times out of 100 The LP is better ... hahaha , don't have that many direct CD to LP comparisons tho', ok, 9 times out of 10.

Peter

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a typical CD player will not get a musical performance to 'gel' properly

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Actually, I know precisely what you mean, and I definitely recognize this aspect (usually when it's there, and occasionally by it's absence). Even the CDX doesn't get this right most of the time, although with some records it seems to come through just fine. The XPS does a lot to help the CDX do this more consistently, but it still has an artificial aspect.

I feel quite lucky to have the CDS2. Yes, it cost an arm and a leg, but I'm experiencing enough pleasure to justify it.

Curiously, I still enjoy listening to my secondary system in my office. With a lowly Cambridge CD6, you would think it should be unbearable. Instead, it's quite pleasant; it plays music without beating you over the head with it. Maybe it's the magic of the straight 32.5 that you've mentioned lately. In comparison, my main system is so enthralling, that I get sucked into the listening room whenever I pass by.

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

[This message was edited by Mike Hanson on WEDNESDAY 04 July 2001 at 15:25.]

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don't have that many direct CD to LP comparisons tho'

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I've got a few that I'm going to do, including a couple of old XTC albums, a couple from Genesis, and Donald Fagen's "Nightfly". As far as the XTC albums go, I've been told that the vinyl is better than CD; however, Virgin is about to release remastered versions of the CDs, so the comparision might be interesting. In the case of Nightfly, I remembered the LP sounding amazing, back in the early 80's when I first started auditioning good gear. In stark contrast, the CD version that I have is simply horrid. This is rather strange, considering how picky Donald Fagen can be.

Oh well. We'll see how my humble Planar 3 stacks up against the great and mighty CDS2.

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

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are you sying the presentation can vary, more PRaT vs round earth?

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John:

Yes that is what I meant. Cartridges can differ in sound as much as speakers. My Grado Reference could be described by some as bloomy, warm, or even fat if you are playing them on some round earthy speakers. This dissappears with an "in your face" speaker like Epos or Naim. Yet in both cases there is pretty good PRaT.

I don't think I would recommend a Grado in your system. I'm more in line with the Dynavector and Linn crowd for a system like yours.

The real problem is that it's hard to get a demo of differing cartridges so you have to go with reviews/recommendations initially.

I initially reconciled myself to just getting a decent basic setup with the idea of upgrading later. It turned out that I liked what I got, so I've stuck with it. When my stylus wears out though I'm going to move over to an MC cartrdige with a prefix or other step-up pre-pre.

Arthur Bye

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But where I'm coming from is that to say that vinyl is always "better" is a view fraught with potential problems and disappointments.

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I think to be fair in making a comparison you have to compare an LP made from the same master as the CD. You also have to assume that sources have been set up properly as well. The proper setup of a turntable can be a bit of a moving target at times.

Despite this, I think that most would agree that a decent turntable, with a record in good condition, reasonably set up, would out perform a CD player.

I've heard people say that, at times, a cd player can out perform Vinyl. I haven't heard it myself yet.

Arthur Bye

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In the case of Nightfly, I remembered the LP sounding amazing, back in the early 80's when I first started auditioning good gear.

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I bought a copy of this out of a bargain bin a year or two back (for 20p!) as I remembered it sounding excellent in turntable dems in the 80s. I was not wrong, this is a fantastic sounding slab of vinyl - the bass line on track one side two is fabulous, and actually worth getting the album for! I do find the music on the whole a little too cheesy, but that bass playing is superb. I have never heard the CD so can't comment on that. The record is definitely worth 20p!

Tony.

It also looks like there is not a concise answer on the superiority of vinyl. I will obviously have to try a high end TT in my system before I will truely understand. The gains of eliminating harshness and adding tonal color do not interest me. My CDS1 has no harshness and the tonal color is adequate. Added warmth, a wider range musical expression and better musical coherence (if possible??) do interest me. I still suspect these will be the gains it a good TT. Am I correct or are the gains different?

John

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A 52/250 is a complete wast of money with a P3, or P25 come to that.

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You seem to misunderstand my stance. First of all, I'm primarily a CD listener, and I don't expect that to change all that much. Considering that I have a CDS2 up front, the 52/250 is certainly not wasted. The P3 was purchased just so that I could listen to a bit of vinyl now and again. I don't generally like the format (too awkward), but I want the option to play it all the same. I realize that it probably won't sound as good as my CD player, and that's OK.

If this perspective doesn't change, then I'll be completely happy with my P3 as a occasional secondary source (as I will be with my Creek T43 tuner). If I ever find myself listening to tons of vinyl, then I'll get myself a P9 or equivalent. In the same way, if I find myself listening to radio most of the time, then I'll get myself a NAT01. In the meantime, I'm pleased with my decisions.

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

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The P3 was purchased just so that I could listen to a bit of vinyl now and again.

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The P3 needs no apologists, it is a fine deck and is capable of playing real music. The only thing I would say is be careful where you put it - it is sensitive to both structural and to a degree air-born feedback, your Mana should work well, though if the floor is wobbly then consider a shelf. I would also give it a MC cartridge if possible. If the P3 is second hand then replace the belt (they are about 6 quid). One forum contributor has the entry level Ortofon MC 10 in his, and on the right record it is certainly not embarrassed by his CDS2, I never have that "Ye Gods, change it back NOW!" feeling that would be expected by using a source 20 times cheaper.

Tony.

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I would say is be careful where you put it - it is sensitive to both structural and to a degree air-born feedback, your Mana should work well, though if the floor is wobbly then consider a shelf. I would also give it a MC cartridge if possible.

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It's all in the closet, so hopefully airborne vibrations won't be a problem. Unfortunately, the closet corner in which it's sitting is also the corner of the room, so bass may be an issue (even though it's behind the closet doors).

Initially it's going to be on a single Sound Frame, which is sitting on top of a Vuk-style X-Caliber. I realize that this isn't the best configuration, but I think it will do for the moment. Sometime later this year I'm going to get a 5-tier Mana rack sitting on a Sound Stage, bringing the turntable to phase 3. Below it is the tuner, followed by the XPS, Super-Cap and 250 (effectively filling the 5-tier).

I'm not sure where I'm going with the electronics and speakers. I would like to get 135s next, and I would likely move the TT to a wall shelf at that time (perched above the CDS2, so it's not in the "corner" of the room anymore). This will reduce it to phase 2, but with the upgrade to the 135s, I probably won't notice the difference. Also, being on the wall shelf out of the corner might improve it too.

If I end up changing the speakers to something like an SBL or NBL, then I might want to go active, at which point I would get a two or three tier to put on the wall shelf, which would bring the turntable back to phase 3. This rack would also house the tuner and active cross-over. This leaves the 5-tier holding the power supply for the SNAXO, and the power amps.

This is all at least a couple years down the road, though, so at this point I'm just keeping it in mind so that I don't buy something that dead-ends me too soon. As it is, CDS2/82/Super/250/Albions is sounding simply wonderful, and the 52 is arriving next week. Hooray!

-=> Mike Hanson <=-