Classical on a NAIM

First, how could what anyone else "says" go against YOUR eperience?

Secondly, do the pundits even own a naim?

onlythat

If you have a look at both Naim's and Linn's record label sites you will see that they do quite a few classical CDs and thus those "hi fi types" are talking cobblers. This rumour I think was put about 20 odd years ago by manufacturers who believed, wrongly in my opinion, that you could only evaluate any Hi Fi system with acoustic classical music and it was all about Flat Frequency Response and Low Distortion. Some still believe it.

Yours in Music

Syd

Hi guys,
This is something that irked me a little too. I do mainly listen to rock/metal. At least that's where my so called modern interest lies. I do however have a selection of jazz, classical and acoustic music. I play the guitar. It goes without saying that i've been exposed to a lot of good music.

Audio Analogue are favourites when it comes to classical (apparently - I've never heard the stuff) and I've heard on your more "traditional" systems (meridian/krell) that classical can sound incredibly wide and realistic.

For me however, although I can honestly admit that strings sound pretty shrill on a naim system (of any calibre) it's still much more of an experience and the [negligable] tradeoff for those shrill violins is well worth it.

I hope you can trust me. I'm a regular at the Bridgewater hall - it's only a ten minute walk from here!

In short - it's Naim! You want an orchestra - go to a concert hall. You want the best musical experience, you're on the Naim forum so you must have it (or at least want it badly!).

I would be quite interested to know what JV liked! Clearly a man of taste - the guy has a cult following more dedicated than the average startrek fan!

Bob-- I couldn't care a whit what these audio boys said per se... My experience has not shown this to be the case. But this being a forum where we speak of things NAIM, I am curious as to why I have heard this from people just out of, well... out of pure friggin' curiosity! I am interested in the history of our mutually favored product-- warts and all.

now-- Mister Twelve... guy-- I disagree with you wholeheartedly. i do not think my NAIM sistem makes things sound shrill in any way. Quite the contrary actually-- I think it may warm things a bit. Strings sound ivory-snow-pure-and-lovely on my sistem.

Not Spendor-like (a bit rolled but lovely, mind you)-- just clean.

And as for the concert hall-- well, last I checked, Jussi Bjorling (my favorite tenor) had been dead for 43 years or so. There is noone today (even at Bridgewater hall) that can hold his operatic jock (except maybe Pav himself-- but he is long past his prime)-- and the only place to hear good old Jussi is--

on a stereo!!! Same goes for Solti, Callas, Caruso, Menuhin and even some of YOUR boys, like Jimmi and company. So either we do a seance on the forum-- or we keep buying hifi--- and their records.

I always seem to be outspoken on this forum

I won't argue with you because that's just not right. But seriously, I experience shrillness from my system and it's something that the hifi press (in the uk at least) generally concur with. Perhaps shrill is too strong a word - this implies that I don't like my system which is just not true!

Shame that the classiest of artists pass on. What I wouldn't give to hear Mr Miles Davis in person. My Duke Ellington live album is incredible. But still, what I wouldn't give to trundle down the road to the Academy to hear with my own ears.

My reference to the BWH was just to point out that I like music! So many a time I've heard from people who have never even seen their favourite artists live (those who are living) or been to a concert hall. It's like those city folk who have never seen a cow. Here in Manchester (I work in an outdoor shop) I see it all too often.

I admit - it can be hard to find the time. It's why I gave up my degree to seek a "non professional" job. No stress, plenty of cash. Evenings free to listen to music. I've never had so much fun! And on my days off, I walk in fields full of cows and sheep (more this year after foot and mouth invaded last year). Haven't needed a holiday in 28 months.

Rest assured. I am sticking with my Naim - and I will be continuing to buy their records.

Seconding your motion that we shouldn't care what they say!

I have heard the olive style possesed with a very forward sound. I have also heard it laid back and warm. There are a great many reasons of how this comes about, but most of them can be sorted out.
The CDX2 I am listening to does one of the most convincing renditions of harpsichord music I have ever had (heard) in my room. tops the record players! Do not take that to mean the CDX2 necessarily lunches on my TT, but it does have strengths the TT does not, and vice versa.
Most people I've met who say Naim does not do classical have little or no experience w/Naim.
I've had the luxury of owning ML, Krell, Pass, and gosh, I don't even remember them all. Some rendered things differently, but to the best of my ability to make such judgements, none did it better either, lest they'd still be taking up shelf space in my home.

Hi!

I am a violinist. And yes, violins sound shrill on my naim (see profile), but the reason is: because violins sound shrill!!!

That's it.

In other words: if you play a recording with a shrill sound on it, it will sound shrill through your naim (of any calibre).

- Jun

I wholeheartedly agree with the comments here; people who say Naim systems are meant for rock systems only, are misinformed to say the least. I find all forms of music are conveyed with equal excitement and rythmic authority. The limiting factor, as always, is the quality of the recording-for those doubters, just listen to Fabio Bondi's Europa Galante rendition of the Four Seasons (all other versions just don't cut the mustard i.m.o.)-the pace and sheer gusto of this performance is truly spine tingling, especially if you have 30 Grand's worth of kit!

Hi!

I am a violinit, and yes: violins sound shrill through my naim. The reason is: because violins sound shrill!

That's it.

In other words: if you play a recording with shrill sound on it, it will sound shrill on your naim (of any calibre)...

In other words: if the recorded violin sounds ivory-snow-pure-and-lovely, it will sound ivory-snow-pure-and-lovely through your naim sistem (of any calibre). And yes: I am a violinist. And yes: violins can sound ivory-snow-pure-and-lovely!!

- Jun

That's a reasonable point! I also used to play violin and gave it up because I thought it sounded awful! I hope I don't cause offence!

I then played guitar and played with a Jazz band for a while. I'm looking to do some punk now. Seeking an accomplished group of friends to form one! Since we're all engineers it's going to be hard!

When I was singing with the choir at one point - we were "in the wings" and the violin quartet was on just before us. I ran outside and said "come get me when it's over" so there was i in the winter cold wearing a smart white shirt and dickie bow just escaping the violins!

I think I see your point actually. I really hope I haven't upset you by saying that. But yes. I am closed to the sound of violins. Perhaps I was just scarred when I was learning

I'm sure you'd writhe at some of the junk I play on the guitar too. the "death metal distortion" and "buzz box" can't be to everyone's taste! :P

Andrew

As a regular opera goer, I have never found a system that approaches the true color of voices that one hears in a good hall. Listening to almost every non Naim system leaves one with a flat feeling. A case in point. I once did an AB comparison of an LP 12 EKOS Archive to an LP 12 Aro Archive. The archive (any model) in an Aro fails to properly capture the details in a soprano voice. But when listening to the Aro combination and hearing Tebaldi sing I began to cry. Only Naim can capture that elusive emotive quality of the music. No one does it better.

Afshar:

By your profile I see you are interested in textiles. By your name I assume you collect South Persian Tribal rugs??

A Turkoman collector asks........

Craig

Ok NOW!! I positively draw the LINE at South Persian tribal rug collecting!!...

for SURE that's GOTTA be a Padded Cell topic.

No??

Fine rugs go well with fine music. In both one seeks to find the creative spirit of the artist. Naim allows one to enter into the mind of the artist. Isn't that what music listening is all about?

Richie's got a point. Recorded classical music rarely ever beats the actual sound of a performance (the exception is one singer being drowned out by a full orchestra). With rock music it's the other way around, because live venues are often crap, it turns out the girl can't really sing, and playing the guitar while shaking your leather-clad bootie ain't all that easy, either.

However that doesn't apply to Naim only. What's behind this 'Naim can't do classical' is the idea that Naim is about rhythm and pace and there's people who think that classical doesn't have rhythm or pace (these are the same people who say they get depressed listening to a Beethoven slow movement). Of course in reality all music has rhythm. The difference is rock has a monotonous kind of rhythm (4 beats to every damn bar) while a lot of classical has nicely intricate rhythms, which you're sure to enjoy on your Naim.

Hifi that's considered good for classical typically goes for the huge soundstage business, allowing the listener to imagine he's Lenny Bernstein pointing out that little triangle *ting* in the back left. There's been lots of discussions here whether this is something you really experience in the concert hall, or whether it's hifi kitsch.

Still, it's weird to think that, apparently, the guys who make this equipment are (to go by the reports from hifi shows) headbanging diehard rock fans...

Herman

When people say 'Naim systems' here, do they mean all-Naim, or Naim source plus amps, or the full monty? I have a CD3 and Intro 2s, but with Linn amps in between, as I did find the sound with orchestral music more natural than with say a Nait 5. (Maybe if I had Naim amps and some more traditional speakers I'd also get a pleasing orchestral sound.)

It's a tricky business though, and I'm decreasingly sure that I have a favourite sound that's good for all music and all moods. Hence the decision to gradually put together a second system, so that I can experience more than one sound world. The aim is for something warm and tonally colourful. I've just got a s/h Arcam Delta 290P power amp, and figure maybe a Croft Vitale pre- would be good in front. Speakers though, they're a problem. Royd RR1s seemed nice when I heard them once, but rich enough? Standmounts of some kind with a sub? (I have an MJ Acoustics Pro 50, not used in my current system.) All suggestions gratefully received!

Dan

That is so on topic, Dan.

Why don't you start a thread of your own about your question? Not that many folks will check a thread featuring the word 'classical'.

Naim is all about pace, rythym and timing; which is just as important in Classical Music, as any other music form.

All music can enjoyed on a Naim System for that reason.

In my experience those who claim that Naim can't play classical are those who are more interested in the hi-fi aspects of the sound, rather than the music itself.

Hi-fi is merely the means to listen to music, something the Naim Equipment does better than any other hi-fi kit; in my opinion.

quote:

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The aim is for something warm and tonally colourful

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I wonder whether Dan may have a point here! perhaps this is the kind of sound that many classical music enthusiasts aspire to, particularly those who say Naim doesn't do classical. To me the rhythmic structure of a classical piece is vital, but perhaps to some, a smooth mellow presentation is the way they want to hear their music. I'd say they were missing out on a lot of what's in the music, but that's their choice. To some of course, 'classical' equates to 'easy listening' anyway.

David

"Beauty is in the eye of the Beer-holder"

Perhaps the people who say Naim can't do classical music are people who don't go to classical concerts.

Probably like every other classical music lover/Naim user, I chose Naim because it supports the highest level of musical communication that I've heard from hifi equipment and best provides the sense that I'm hearing real people play real music. What's more, going up the Naim range hasn't reached the point of diminishing returns for me (of course, YMMV).

Regards.

Phil

The problem with the "smooth" easy listening approach is in part similar to the opniion of those who value soundstage etc-- they fail to listen to what is important in the music. Lets not forget that PRAT is not an end goal. It is only a means to an end. If a Hi-Fi cannot reveal an artist's interpretation then it is not delving into the heart of the music. Making a note loud (so called impact) or on the other hand producing a smooth sound should not be of significant concern. What counts is how an artist has manipulated that note through shadings of color, dynamics, and balance of parts to communicate an idea. If one only hears a note without ideas, the Hi-Fi has failed to communicate music.

PS Craig send me your email so we can compare the beauty of rugs where color, color balance, and dynamics also reflect the music of the craft person's artistry.

Ira

ira.spar@att.net

Pardon?

You let your equipment choose the kind of music you listen to? Wow!

That's a whole new way of looking at the "it's all about the music" mantra.

Please explain if you can.

Herman

In that case maybe I should get some test records, too.

Any recommendations?

Herman

I heard the tail end of a discussion on R3 the other day about why people can have difficulty with modern classical music compared to contemporary pieces.Words like timing, rhythym etc were used and finally summarised as modern classical music often lacks an easily discernible tune! Forgive me if I'm wrong,but NAIM equipments raison d'etre seems to be the ability to play a tune?
Classical music can be quite harsh:the messages that composers are trying to convey aren't always mellow,smooth and comfortable[try listening to Janaceks Kreutzer sonata quartet:a smooth rendition of this completely misses the point:it is supposed to leave you a quivering wreck at the end!]

Simon

This topic has run before; I`ll reiterate what I said then: What some often describe as the "Naim Sound"....fast leading edges, great timing and dynamics, no soundstage, dry, overdamped, etc. are, in my opinion, describing Naim kit when it is underperforming, ie badly set up. When proper care is taken with setup...and here I mean mostly mains supply, Naim kit can deliver even better dynamics, timing, rhythm etc PLUS all those other virtues (such as soundstaging, depth, delicacy, richness of tonal colour) that are spoken of with such misguided contempt by several contributors to this thread. Those who espouse the old "rock OR classical" divide are really missing the point. Why not rock AND classical. As a dedicated listener to ALL styles of music I can testify that Naim kit (well, my Naim kit anyway) excels with ALL styles of music and I would still choose the setup I have, even if I chose to restrict my listening to one single genre to the exclusion of all others...of whatever type. The attributes I listen for in reproduced sound are pretty much the same for all music.

The fact that there are very many classical fans who own Naim kit (by choice, presumably)must surely put this "old wives tale" to rest forever

If a system makes one (or more) styles of music less entertaining than others, IMHO it is not working properly.

I tend to feel that this old cliche, often quoted, that classical music is best heard on kit which is slow, bloated, with rounded off transients, says a lot about the misconceptions about classical music...I personally don`t know any genuine classical fans that actually like that sort of sound (or for that matter, fans of any other style of music)

I would concede, however that the sort of sound I described above, (of a badly set up Naim system) is probably better disguised by a lot of modern "rock" albums, where accurate tonality is not important, and the recording is often heavily compressed. Accuracy in these cases is largely irrelevant. As such, fans of this type of music (and I include myself here) find the hard, dry, flat sound produced by underforming Naim kit more easy to accept.

Best wishes

laurie S

[This message was edited by Laurie Saunders on WEDNESDAY 07 May 2003 at 23:05.]