Is Hip Hop to blame?
Posted by: Mekon on 07 January 2003
quote:
Originally from Fiachra Gibbons, arts correspondent
Monday January 6, 2003
The Guardian
Minister labelled racist after attack on rap 'idiots'
Howells accused of failing to understand that gun culture in black music is reflection of society in which fans live
The outspoken culture minister, Kim Howells, last night found himself at the centre of a race row after claiming that the time had come to stand up to the "idiots" of rap culture.
Mr Howells, who previously attacked exhibits at the Turner Prize show as "cold, mechanical conceptual bullshit", launched into an extraordinary attack on black British music hours after the police had criticised the music industry for "glamorising guns".
During a radio discussion on the killing of two black teenagers caught in the crossfire between rival gangs in Birmingham after a new year party, Mr Howells laid part of the blame at the door of British rappers.
"The events in Birmingham are symptomatic of something very, very serious," he said. "For years I have been very worried about these hateful lyrics that these boasting macho idiot rappers come out with.
"It is a big cultural problem. Lyrics don't kill people but they don't half enhance the fare we get from videos and films. It has created a culture where killing is almost a fashion accessory."
He reserved his greatest fury for the controversial south London garage outfit, So Solid Crew, three of whose 30 members have been convicted or are awaiting trial on gun offences.
"Idiots like the So Solid Crew are glorifying gun culture and violence," the minister claimed. "It is something new. I heard very interesting comments about [violence] in Victorian times and thugs on the street. But they didn't have these methods of popularising this stuff. It is very worrying and we ought to stand up and say it."
Rappers who carry guns in their videos are "particularly sick", he said.
Earlier, So Solid Crew were singled out for criticism by Metropolitan police assistant commissioner Tarique Ghaffur, who blamed a "backdrop of music" for alienating young men and encouraging them to use weapons as fashion statements.
But last night Conor McNicholas, editor of the music magazine NME, described the minister's outburst as "deeply racist".
"He doesn't understand the culture. It is this idea again that we have to do something about these out-of-control black people in our streets and the nasty culture they are perpetuating," he said.
"They are deeply racist sentiments. We have to be absolutely clear, the gun culture is a function of urban deprivation and not because of the music. The music reflects the experience of young people and doesn't create it.
"There is more rap music listened to and bought by white kids in Swindon than there is by black kids in Hackney, and nobody is talking about the gun culture on the streets of white suburban Britain."
Mr McNicholas said he was surprised that Mr Howells had chosen to roam so far from his brief, which mainly involves tourism. "He clearly doesn't know what he is talking about. We have to recognise that these are young kids who are growing up in very difficult environments who happen to make music as a way of expressing themselves and their frustrations. Just because these guys are making music about the situation they are in does not mean they are perpetuating the culture. The music is not creating the problem."
So Solid Crew, in common with many black musicians and promoters contacted by the Guardian yesterday, said they were sick of being tarred with the "drugs and violence" stereotype, and several refused to comment, claiming that debate only reinforced prejudice. Promoter Lance Lewis said it was nonsense to see rap as bloodthirsty and perverse. "No rapper con dones killing, anyone who says that doesn't know what they are talking about."
A spokeswoman for So Solid Crew did say that the rise in gun violence had nothing to do with music. "It's poverty and crime which are escalating. Cocaine addiction is escalating too. They are just reflecting what they see around them. Their music is reflecting society just as Robert de Niro reflected American gangster society in his film roles. They are out there trying to make a positive difference in British black culture."
She pointed to the fact that Ms Dynamite, whom the police have praised for her stance against drug dealers and black- on-black violence, has defended the band, who played a key part in her own emergence.
Ms Dynamite has dismissed as "bullshit" the idea that the garage scene is inextricably linked with violence. "The media have blown it out of all proportion. Garage is a young London scene. That's why people in power are afraid of us and try everything to shut us down," she said. "There is violence wherever you go and the rave is a small part of it. It is a metaphor for life in general."
She also refused to condemn So Solid's Ashley Walters, aka Asher D, who was released from jail in October after an 18-month sentence for possessing a gun. Walters, a former child actor, had been the subject of several death threats before his arrest following an altercation with a traffic warden.
"I'm not one to judge, but he was naive," Ms Dynamite said. "Anyone who thinks they can carry a gun in this country is in for a shock."
Academic Ben Bowling, of King's College, London, who is studying the effects of gun culture, claimed rap was hugely misunderstood.
"Not only Ms Dynamite but lots of other bands like De La Soul and Us Three sing out against violence and drug culture. Rap is a very wide church," he said.
He believed it was unfortunate that Mr Howells' comments had come at a time when "there is a movement on the street and in the music industry saying 'no' to violence". The only way gun crime was going to stop, he said, was for communities themselves to reject it, as had happened in the United States.
Hmm, music creating the problem? Maybe it works in reverse. Do you think is we all sing hard enough, the trains can be made to run on time? If that works, maybe Bush should send choirs to Iraq.
Obviously, I am being facetious, but facile comments made by government ministers really depress me.
Posted on: 07 January 2003 by --duncan--
A classic case of shooting the messenger. Given that most operatic heroines meet a sticky end, I just don't known why I havn't taken the kitchen knife to my wife yet.
duncan
Posted on: 07 January 2003 by Dev B
This is quite a serious issue and I do think the comments from the minister are silly. Rap music does not equal Gun culture.
However, it is true that there are some 'lifestyle' add ons to Rap that seem to glamorise gun culture and also treating women poorly. The Genesis of this trend is from the 'Gansta Rap' trend in the US but it started earlier than that. I remember being shocked my an ICE T album which had him carrying a gun wih four women in thongs with machine guns. Seemed a bit patheic to me.
Posted on: 07 January 2003 by matthewr
"There is more rap music listened to and bought by white kids in Swindon"
I blame the parents myself.
Matthew
Posted on: 07 January 2003 by Mick P
Chaps
Blaming music is plain bloody ludicrous.
Bring back the rope for murder and 30 yrs min for possessing a gun. Thats how you cure the problem.
Regards
Mick
Posted on: 07 January 2003 by Dev B
quote:
Originally posted by Mick Parry:
Bring back the rope for murder and 30 yrs min for possessing a gun. Thats how you cure the problem.
Regards
Mick
Mick,
I know you are known for your right wing views but that is a ludicrous solution.
regards
Dev
Posted on: 07 January 2003 by matthewr
"30 yrs min for possessing a gun"
Don't you have a gun Mick?
Matthew
Posted on: 07 January 2003 by Hammerhead
Ah, but it doesn’t Mick. Just take America for example. The threat of being fried, injected or hung by the State(s) hasn’t stopped people murdering each other there.
I don’t think gun culture has anything to do with deprivation – there are after all plenty of loaded crims out there (pun partially intended). Its more like the individuals mental disability in understanding and processing of morality and reason. My suggestion would be : get caught with a gun, off to jail for 5 years and learn how to be a useful member of society*. Get caught again – full lobotomy. Now that should see crime figures drop!
Steve
*Obviously, the government will have to employ a lot of therapists!
Posted on: 07 January 2003 by Mick P
Chaps
Matthew
I own six shotguns but I am licensed to possess them.
Dev
What is ludicrous about locking up someone for a long time if they walk the streets with a gun.
The proposed 5 years is a joke, with remission they could be out in two and a half years.
There is nothing right wing about imposing long sentences, these people are a risk to society, so sod them, lock them up where they cannot do any harm. I have no interest in their human rights but I do have an interest in the rights of those two dead girls and others like them.
Todays liberals breed tomorrows thugs, that is the simple reality of life.
Regards
Mick
Posted on: 07 January 2003 by herm
Clearly all we need to do is cut and paste this thread to the "We need more discipline" classic, and we'd save ourselves a lot of time.
Incidentally, to add my aberrant two cents: I find gangsta rap and its lite offshoots pretty revolting and can't help but think it messes with (some) kids' minds to constantly see this angry sermonizing, posturing, hate-mongering and basically glorifying immature behaviour. Especially as the only goal it serves is to make a few (usually very white) guys rich.
But then I'm not a great lover of any kind of popular music (see: I don't even know how to call it). The comparison with Western movies or Robert de Niro does not apply: even though the bad guys look good, they are part of a story with moral implications ("don't try this at home").
Herman
Posted on: 07 January 2003 by greeny
quote:
However, it is true that there are some 'lifestyle' add ons to Rap that seem to glamorise gun culture and also treating women poorly.
I agree completely.
Howells did not blame Rap music directly. But I have to say I agree with MOST of what was said. It is true that many Rap acts glamorise gun culture and a certain style that many may copy.
The music does not create the problem it reflects what is going on, but it also perpetuates and enforces certain lifestyles. Its OK for So Solid to moan about bad stereotypes being reenforced when it is bands like them who thrive on this sort of thing.
However we live in a free society and there should be no question about banning or censoring this sort of thing, and I don't think anyone is suggesting that.
I think the 5 year minimum for illegal gun posession (especially hand guns) is a good idea. There can be no reason for carrying a hand gun around.
Posted on: 07 January 2003 by Dev B
quote:
Originally posted by Mick Parry:
There is nothing right wing about imposing long sentences, these people are a risk to society, so sod them, lock them up where they cannot do any harm.
Mick,
We could debate this for a while - but I don't have the inclination today. But I think what we really need some education (i.e community or school based) in addition to a rigourous, effective, deterrant.
regards
Dev
Posted on: 07 January 2003 by greeny
Oh by the way, the Trevor Nelson comment along the lines of:
'They don't have a go at Steven King when there is some serial killer on the loose, so why have a go at Rap for Gun Culture.'
Missed the point so completely that I cannot believe he actually cannot see the difference between the two scenario's
Posted on: 07 January 2003 by matthewr
Mick "I own six shotguns but I am licensed to possess them"
Ok. What about Toy martin who shot and murdered somone with an illegal shotgun. Should he have got a mandatory 30 year sentence?
Matthew
Posted on: 07 January 2003 by Rockingdoc
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mick Parry:
30 yrs min for possessing a gun
But surely Mr Mick, you must have a gun to protect your family and property from the scum.
malcolm
BTW I remember a similar outcry in the very early 70s against violence "caused" by ALICE COOPER for God's sake.
[This message was edited by Rockingdoc on TUESDAY 07 January 2003 at 14:08.]
Posted on: 07 January 2003 by Dev B
quote:
Originally posted by greeny:
Oh by the way, the Trevor Nelson comment along the lines of:
'They don't have a go at Steven King when there is some serial killer on the loose, so why have a go at Rap for Gun Culture.'
Ah, Trevor big head Nelson, the voice of black people speaks. I'm trying to work out who is more ludicrous him or El Duce Mick!
Posted on: 07 January 2003 by matthewr
"was jailed for murder.. but the charge was reduced to manslaughter"
Actually his conviction for murder was upheld but was reduced to manslaughter on the grounds of diminished responisbility following psychiatric reports about his paranoid personality disorder.
In other words far from being a "trumped up murder charge" if he hadn't been as mad as fish he would still be a convicted murderer.
Matthew
Posted on: 07 January 2003 by NB
MEKON
Lets be honest here it has nothing to do with music!!! More to do with drugs and gang warefare!!
Regards
NB
Posted on: 07 January 2003 by Bob McC
Of course modern beat combos are to blame!
Ever since the butterfly Mick Jagger was broken on a wheel for drug possession there have been right wing rants about the evil influence of yoof culture. Its all bollocks of course. I remember me old dad turning top of the pops off in a rage cos The Stones were singing lets spend the night together. The deaths in Brum were down to drug culture, gang related. We've got it in Manchester. Parts of the city where cops patrol armed. Legalise all drugs. The only person responsible for me is me. No one else. Self determination also requires self responsibility. I dont use drugs but if I did why shouldn't I. We have a society full of hypocritical cant. We can get smashed out of our heads on alcohol if we so desire but the vast najority of society do not abuse this right. Millions of us have been lobotomised already by the widespread use of valium, prozac etc and yet still feel we can make objective judgements while under the influence of this soma.If drugs were legalised there would not be such a sub culture of violence associated with it. Sure there would still be violence, as there is with tobacco and booze smuggling, but perhaps profits would not be worth risking death for.
When will we realise that
Posted on: 07 January 2003 by gusi
Have a listen to Sarah Jones' "Revolution" for some alternative views on gangsta rap.
It is quite to the point and it even got banned from the US air waves.
Gus
Posted on: 08 January 2003 by fred simon
It's not only hip-hop/rap that gets blamed for violence. Marilyn Manson, Metallica, and others were blamed for the Columbine massacre in the USA.
But the real causes are much more complex than just a genre or two of music. I strongly recommend Michael Moore's brilliant film Bowling for Columbine which asks the hard questions about guns, violence, and American culture. For instance, there are almost as many guns per capita in Canada as in the US but far, far fewer gun deaths. Why? One reason is the culture of fear fostered by the American media and government.
Because Marilyn Manson was frequently cited as having influenced the Columbine murderers, Moore interviews him and he is (surprisingly, to many) very intelligent and articulate about the issues.
Charlton Heston, president of the National Rifle Association, of which Moore is a member, is interviewed and is asked why he, with the NRA, stages pro-gun rallies in places like Littleton, Colorado (Columbine) and Flint, Michigan (the 6 year old boy who killed a 6 year old girl) mere days or weeks after these tragedies, as if to rub the victims' families' noses in it. He has no response other than to walk out on the interview.
Comedian Chris Rock has the right idea, as excerpted in the film, that bullets should cost $5000 apiece.
Posted on: 09 January 2003 by Nigel Cavendish
Was it not Frank Zappa who asked some american politician that if song lyrics make people do things, how come we don't all love each other?
Posted on: 09 January 2003 by Stephen Bennett
Listening to Britany turned me into a virgin.
Music is dangerous
Stephen
Posted on: 09 January 2003 by Roy T
Again?
Posted on: 09 January 2003 by Stephen Bennett
Yes again.....
I said it was dangerous!
Stephen
Posted on: 09 January 2003 by ejl
Here is a recent piece which argues that both the gun-culture "aesthetic" of current major-label rap and it's post-'92 avoidance of real political criticism is a product of big label marketing.