Scrapping of the Red Arrows

Well I've signed it, this is outrageous.

I suppose I am going to be a lone voice, but those who remember my recent thread "British Military Future," which never went where I wanted it too, will see from this answer where I did want it to go.

We need to examine our national priorities: The NHS is, in spite of funding increases, still strapped. I would hesitate to think to our education system being optimal, and the closing of special schools is far more scandalous than scrapping the Red Arrows. The funding of the Local Governement is so parsimonious as to cause the Council Tax to be a real burden on the poorer sections of our working people, if not the unemployed...

In my view we need to bring ourselves into an integrated European Military System of "Defence." Even considering a total cut in military expenditure of perhaps 50%. This could also come into a broad reconsidering of the Monarchy as well, which I beleive can and must come into line with the kind of low key funding found in Scandinavia, if it is to survive at all over the next generation.

Yes. Let's really examine not only the Red Arrows, but what ever waste we can root out or else we shall continue to get the necessary and vital things wrong.

Also, in my view, the Olympics being held here is another complete waste, just like the Millenium Dome! More Political Folly, writ large!

Fredrik for chancellor. No pertition unfortunately! Any seconders.

Kindest rega[q]rds from Fredrik

PS: Partial edit due to Adams sweet pointing out of my useless typing ability!

quote:

Originally posted by Fredrik_Fiske:
Fredrik for chancellor. No pertition unfortunately! Any seconders.

Kindest regaqrds from Fredrik

I think Fredrik for spelchock

I have got Firefox now and there seems to be some sort of spell checker on it, but it underlines two thirds of the words!

I still use the Internet Explorer as a result!

Kindest regards from Fredrik

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrggggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...............!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That was long! Fredrik

bloody shame that.
i blame the french and the chunnel as we are no longer an island ! we are losing our identity.
soon we will be a us state.
puppets to the yanks !!

Not another bleedin' petition. Anyone would think this was Switzerland!

I think the finance strategy now used by our government can best be summed up as, 'catching the peanuts and letting the coconuts slip by'. We have never had more tax raised by a chancellor, and never have we had more money poured down black holes, with little or no effect, or apparent benefit.

Quite - the difference between 'cost' and 'value' just isn't understood.

Anyway I thought the point of the Red Arrows was that it was a second use for trainer aircraft - which presumably will continue to fly...

In any case the difference between cost and value is irreleant if the money is not there.

On a personal level, the decisions to spend saved or borrowed money, and how to spend it, are entirely for the individual, but once the money spent comes from others, then a large degree more prudence needs to be applied. I am not sure that I regard Mr Brown as even vaguely prudent in his attitude to the way the tax take [and public borrowing, including PFI, of course] is spent on our behalf on all too many occasions. Of course the blame must be shared by Mr Blair as well.

I can think of no better "value" than the best standards of education being proper offered to all, and not just the current post code lottery we have today.

All the best from Fredrik

I cannot personally see the value of the Red Arrows.

This pointless piece of areonautical propaganda doesn't lift my spirits; but then I guess neither does trooping the colour or the Royal Tournament.

What on earth is so 'shocking' about scrapping the Red Arrows. They've had their day.

Bruce

Bruce! That makes two so far! Fredrik

quote:

Originally posted by Bruce Woodhouse:
I cannot personally see the value of the Red Arrows.

This pointless piece of areonautical propaganda doesn't lift my spirits; but then I guess neither does trooping the colour or the Royal Tournament.

The Royal Tournament was scrapped some years ago...

Trooping the Colour has been significantly downsized with army cuts, but does remain.

To your list, one might add the Routemaster bus, which has also been scrapped, of course.

In themselves, looked at in one way, these might seem pointless anachronisms. But one thing is that they do help to attract tourists to our country, the income from which far exceeds the cost of these things.

Things like Red Arrows and Trooping the Colour still do have a real purpose too.

There is a lot of competitiveness amongst RAF fighter pilots to be a Red Arrows pilot - the trickle down is excellence in flying skills amongst our pilots in general. Particularly useful as they put their lives on the line on our behalf.

And it is still true that discipline and responding instinctively to the word of command on the Parade Square helps with discipline and instinctive responsiveness to the word of command where it is really needed - when the chips are down in the face of the enemy.

James

Bruce/Frederik,

I see things like the Red Arrows as something of a national institution - I can't believe for example that when they flew down the Mall a couple of years ago in formation with Concorde that you weren't moved by that along with thousands if not millions of others.

I would imagine the yanks felt the same when they watched the Space Shuttle blast off before its reputation was tarnished. Airshows too bring millions of people pleasure and without the Red Arrows as their highlight they just wouldn't be the same.

I know that they serve as an awesome inspiration to pilots but I think their appeal goes way beyond pilots into the hearts and minds of so many people in this country.

I suspect too that they've earned their place having increased the sales of Hawk trainers to the middle East and Europe, they've inspired countless people to join the RAF and they've added more than a touch of glamour and drama to many national events.

I fully support the ideal that education and healthcare are incredibly important - I just doubt that a couple of million quid a year will make any kind of dent on the problems in schools etc - I'd rather see a 50% tax rate for those earning very high salaries!

Jonathan

My Dad's cousin was a Red Arrow pilot. We used to get an Arrows Xmas card every year - a great childhood memory. They're a fantastic training group for what are already some of the best fast jet pilots in the world, and they're ambassadors for the UK. Fly on, I say.

Eclat!

quote:

I just doubt that a couple of million quid a year will make any kind of dent on the problems in schools etc

Quite. You could easily save that much on one average Secondary school replacement by notgoing down the PFI route...

(BT. DT.)

Pilots can be encouraged to hone and refine their skills through training that has a real-world relevance. I've a feeling that organised low level combined aerobatics is unlikely to confuse 'the enemy'.

I've also always had the impression that the Arrows job tended to be for older pilots as a valedictory appointment rather than those mid career. I say this because it was offerred to a close friend of mine, an ex-fast jet pilot/instructor. He now flies punters to Tenerife and back, but hopefully not at 300 feet of the deck...

Bruce

To remind you of what they do

Incidentally I'd MUCH prefer that we celebrated/recognised the loss and bravery of those who died in the the World Wars and subsequent conflicts in a meaningful way, if necessary with some modernnisation of the Remembrance Day events. This should be a civil and military ceremony.

The Red Arrows just have some vague association with John Major's 'warm beer and cricket' Britain. If we are going to use these military symbols then lets make it meaninful.

quote:

Originally posted by Bruce Woodhouse:
I've also always had the impression that the Arrows job tended to be for older pilots as a valedictory appointment rather than those mid career.

As I understand it there's no "offering" involved - competition is fierce.

"...volunteers are usually Flight Lieutenants in their late twenties or early thirties."

"There are always far more volunteers than places available..."

"To be eligible, anyone considering applying must have completed at least one operational tour on a fast jet such as the Tornado, Harrier and Jaguar. Pilots must have been assessed in their annual reports as being above average in their operational role."

All from the FAQ:

http://www.raf.mod.uk/reds/faqs.html

Chiba

I may have misunderstood, I suspect candidates are 'invited to apply' myself but it was a while ago, he flew the last operational Phnatoms in the RAF which dates it rather. I'll ask him this weekend.

Bruce

Here's the answer. Same thing, lower budget.

But sadly, 'out of stock'...

I saw the Red Arrows a couple of years ago in Llandudno and they were awesome. The skill and
precision displayed by the pilots was incredible
and they were displaying their skills as part of
a recruitment campaign for the Royal Air Force.
I'm sure the Red Arrows are envied around the world for their displays of skill and bravery.I consider them to be an inspirational part of the Royal Air Force and I'm sure there are many pilots both here and abroad who would aspire to be a member of the Red Arrows.
Gordon Brown should look at the amount of money his Government is wasting from day to day
rather than breaking up the Red Arrows. Only a few months ago there were reports concerning the low recruitment figures for the armed services.To get rid of the Red Arrows would be
detrimental to any recruitment drive. Whats next on his cost cutting agenda the SAS.
Regards,Trevor.