Naim DAC with Supernait/Hicap2

I did such an audition at a friends house a few days ago.

I would not say it was a massive improvement over the SN built in DAC. I would say that the SN/HC2 has even got a better power supply than the bare NDAC. (Richard/Adam, please correct me if I am wrong)

However a NDAC/XP2 is a different beast altogether.

If I had a SN/HC2, I am not sure I would invest in an outboard dac. I would spend my money somewhere else.

[quote]If I had a SN/HC2, I am not sure I would invest in an outboard dac. I would spend my money somewhere else.
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Thanks for that. I'm really happy with my SN and the addition of the HC2 gave a massive improvement, but the Naim DAC has been so well received that I had to ask the question.

I have the nDAC with the SN/HC2.

The nDAC blows the internal SN-DAC to the moon and back.

I compared my SB Touch on the nDAC/SN/HC versus SB Touch/SN/HC...DAY AND NIGHT.

If our Mr Ali couldnt hear a difference between the nDAC/SN/HC and the SN-DAC/HC then something is either wrong with the setup or with his ears.

I even comapred my DVD-player on both DACs.
Really, the nDAC is in another universe.

If you put a decent wav-file on an USB-stick and you feed it to the nDAC, IMHO, this is on of the best digital replay-solutions there is, for the money spent of course.

kifco,
take the nDAC home with you and try some 5$ USB-stick...NIRVANA!!!!

Ali, again, not a very good advice, sorry....

I have a SN/HC2 with an nDAC. I would not say it was night and day better (a much over used description of Hi-Fi). However, I would say it is a lot better. Feeding a Macbook Pro and a SB3 in to the DAC did bring improvements. The biggest improvement by far is the quality from a USB stick.

I sold my CD5x/HC2 combination to buy the nDAC but the nDAC is not as good as the CD was, even with the USB stick.

If you say the CD/HC2 is 10, then I would say the USB is 9, the Macbook or SB3 more or less the same at 7.5 through the nDAC. I would give the SN/HC2 internal DAC about a 6 or 6.5 with the SB3.

Please don't see 6 as being way off 10 in this context. It's still reasonable.

Regards,
Huw

quote:

If you put a decent wav-file on an USB-stick and you feed it to the nDAC, IMHO, this is on of the best digital replay-solutions there is, for the money spent of course.

Hi Thorsten,

I'm considering switching from SB Classic to a SB Touch, as it seems to have a better digital output.
Could you say the SB-Touch into nDAC is more or less on the same level as a USB-stick into nDAC.
(I hope so as is doesn't seem very practical to me using the DAC with USB sticks)

regards,
Alco

quote:

Originally posted by Thorsten_Lux:
The nDAC blows the internal SN-DAC to the moon and back.

Thorston,
Could you be a bit more specific? I don't think these kind of comments are of any use to somebody...

Regards,
Michel

IMO, the DAC is a nice product, but does not bring night & day improvement over a well run-in SNDac with an Hicap...

quote:

Originally posted by matpip:
IMO, the DAC is a nice product, but does not bring night & day improvement over a well run-in SNDac with an Hicap...

IMO, moving up a product line slowly should never bring night and day improvements, difference between NAIT 5i and NAIT XS is a subtle improvement of all that is good about the NAIT 5i for example. If the difference is night and day, then there was probably something wrong with the previous setup.

But then maybe in the English countryside there's more difference between Night and Day than there is in some parts of the world!

All IMO of course...

I found when I auditioned the ndac, that it did bring improvements over the internal snait DAC, but for me was certainly not enough to move away from the snait dac. A hicap represents much better vfm.

For me I could only reccomend it if you were planning to creep up the naim product line ie ndac/282/250

Eloise and Occean, I totally agree with both of you!

Hmmm...sorry about the night/day-crap, but in my system, the difference between nDAC/SN-DAC are HUGE.

The music is just presented better in every term.
More soundstage, groove, PRAT,....

The SB Touch is not on the same level as via USB-stick, but very very close.

The SB Touch/nDAC-combo is a brilliant combo in terms of VFM.

Honestly, when I did my tests, the nDAC really was winning big time over the SN-DAC, in all respect.

Sure, the 2600 Euros is another story.

quote:

f you say the CD/HC2 is 10, then I would say the USB is 9, the Macbook or SB3 more or less the same at 7.5 through the nDAC. I would give the SN/HC2 internal DAC about a 6 or 6.5 with the SB3.

Very interesting.

I find the nDAC/USB-stick was way better than my CD5XS...(ok, no HC on the CD5XS, though).

My ranking:

USB into nDAC/SN/HC = 1o
CD5XS into nDAC/SN/HC = 9
SB Touch into nDAC/SN/HC = 8,9
SB Touch into SN-DAC/HC = 5

quote:

USB into nDAC = 10

+1

The HC2 added to the CD5x takes it ahead of the USB/nDAC/SN/HC2 (IMO). Not tried the SB Touch so can't comment but would say the SB3 is noticeably less good than the USB.

Of course the USB is not user friendly and it would be nice to find hardware that matches the USB for SQ but gives some control of what is playing.

I'd be interested to hear anyones opinion of the Unitiseve in this context and of the Naim PSU.

I was thinking today that if I got an SSD Unitiserve, add my DAC and get a PSu. Add add a Hiline & BC1 I would be spending £8k for a front end. Sounds a bit excessive!

Regards,
Huw

I'm wondering if the differences some are getting between CD5x/HC2 and USB sticks, etc, aren't due to the rips used in the various systems. I just set up the HDX/SN/HC2 at the shop, also with a bare CD5xs in the stack, for a customer demo coming up and found the HDX into SN/HC2 via DC1 RCA>RCA to really amaze. The CD5xs was better at first until I removed the CD5xs and changed the HDX ground switch to Chassis. Then things were pretty even, IIRC.

But my point about the rips is that I had both iTunes wav or AIF rips in an iTunes library and HDX rips of the same CDs on a share on the same nas and the HDX rips just blew away the iTunes rips. Night and Day. And then i had a 24/96 of one of them, the SRV/Albert King - In Session, and things just got better.

So my experience is that a mediocre rip on a USB would certainly be not as good as an original CD on a a good CD player such as CD5x/HC2.

I didn't try the nDAC in the system but I will.

Pay attention to the grounding switch on the DAC and on your Unitiserve if you have one. Super important. My best results are with HDX set to Chassis and nDAC to float and no naim CD in the system (just unplug the audio interconnect, it can be plugged into AC).

Very excited to hear the UnitiServe in this system as it is supposed to sound better than the HDX I have.

quote:

Originally posted by connon price:

But my point about the rips is that I had both iTunes wav or AIF rips in an iTunes library and HDX rips of the same CDs on a share on the same nas and the HDX rips just blew away the iTunes rips. Night and Day.

I'm afraid that provided you had done both correctly, that is complete and utter tosh.

Joe

[quote]
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Originally posted by connon price:

....and found the HDX into SN/HC2 via DC1 RCA>RCA to really amaze.

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Do I take it that you were using the SN dac here bypassing the one in the HDX?

quote:

Originally posted by Joe Bibb:


I'm afraid that provided you had done both correctly, that is complete and utter tosh.

Joe

There is no way NOT to rip correctly with either iTunes or HDX. Insert disc, wait, listen.

Yes, digital out into SN dac to approximate UnitiServe into SN for customer considering trading in CD5x.

Joe, Night and Day was hyperbole humor. But sonic and musical differences are significant between the rips on every comparison I have made. iTunes set to wav or AAif and with error correction checked. Not sure what I would have done wrong.

[quote]Yes, digital out into SN dac to approximate UnitiServe into SN for customer considering trading in CD5x.
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Thanks for your reply, connon price.

I bought the SN/HC2 combination specifically to keep my box count low - design is my day job and I'm into minimalism!! I am hoping that the addition of a Naim streamer is the only additional box I shall require with this system. I therefore await your future trials with great interest.

As the OP on this thread I haven't been convinced by the arguments for adding the Naim DAC unless, as occean suggested, I was thinking of moving to a pre/power combination in future, which I am not.

Allen and Joe,
I have no answers for why our experiences differ. I might suggest different versions of iTunes software. I have been using versions of iTunes since 2004 and ripping in laptop machines (Powerbook4, Macbook Pro 15, and Macbook Pro 15 solid body) I would point to differences in the quality of the codecs in various iTunes versions. I note some of my Apple Lossless files are encoded with iTunes 4.7 and some with 7.2.1 or some thing. But the AIFF and WAV files ripped over time shouldn't rely on encoding because they are straight copies, if I understand it correctly.

I have heard these same differences on various systems of differing resolution, including a pair of $350 dollar Audioengine A5 speakers. Customers here it too.

You are welcome to pipe up that all rips are identical. I will pipe up that they aren't. Readers, please use the claim that best fits your experience and paradigm and feel free to keep an open mind and retest your assumptions over time. I do.

quote:

Originally posted by connon price:
Allen and Joe,
I have no answers for why our experiences differ.

I do. £4.5k for a Windows PC (ripping wise) v a few hundred for a Mac/PC would heighten expectation bias for even the strongest I'm sure.

Let's stick with un-encoded files for simplicity. There really is no difference between identical un-encoded music files. While we are at it, there is no magic storage medium for the original it's an optical disc for goodness sake. If there IS a difference in the rip against the original - easy to check. Or a difference in playback set up that's another matter.

The sowing of doubt where there is none, does this hobby/interest no credit. Only when audiophiles get their hands on computer technology does all this foo start appearing. Up until then terabytes of much more complex and sensitive data gets copied, transferred, moved and replayed without problems. Funny that.

We all have opinions about stuff, but when claims like "night and day" sonic differences between simple data extraction processes that are easily validated appear, it gives the industry credibility problems.

The onus is not on proving a negative.

Joe

You believe my experience is purely from expectation bias. I don't. I will do an ABX one of these days and see how far my head (including ears) are up my... But, I'm pretty sure I will get a statistically relevant result. My first experience with the difference in file/rip quality was before I had any expectation of difference and had believed, as you are suggesting, that a rip is a rip. It was when i was trying out the Wadia iTransport 70 at the shop. i had my iphone playing files into the Supernait and wasn't very impressed with the sound. So I took the dig output from the HDX, using same DC1, into the Supernait and playing songs ripped from the same CDs, heard a much improved music and sound. I thought it must be that the HDX had lower jitter on the digital output than the iPhone/Wadia. So I transferred some of the HDX ripped wav files over to the iPod and compared them through the Wadia/SN. Same or similar differences between perceived musical presentation existed between iTunes and HDX rips.

I don't consider a cd rip a simple file transfer. do you?

quote:

The onus is not on proving a negative.

The onus is for you not to simply trash another's experience before you do the A/B yourself.

He has done the A/B. I think. Well AllenB has, anyway. And well, it just stands to reason... either he has and came to the same conclusion that AllenB has or he doesn't need to because of his ability to reason in which he makes conclusions based on assumptions and premises.

Joe?