Naim DAC with Supernait/Hicap2

Since I own a HDX and SuperNait myself, I find this very interesting to read. The analogue output of the HDX is connected to the SuperNait using the Hi-Line. Unfortunately, I do not have a DC1 (or other cable) to connect the digital output of the HDX to the SuperNait DAC.

Do you guys think it's worth the effort to get one and give it a try? I don't know why, but I've always had the idea that the HDX DAC would outperform the DAC in the SuperNait...

Regards,
Michel

quote:

I've always had the idea that the HDX DAC would outperform the DAC in the SuperNait

Why not give it a shot and report back?

As I've mentioned before, I don't have a suitable cable hangin' around...

Regards,
Michel

quote:

Originally posted by pcstockton:

quote:

The onus is not on proving a negative.

The onus is for you not to simply trash another's experience before you do the A/B yourself.

Done plenty of A/Bs have you? You strike me as a pretty bright guy Patrick, I'm sure you can explain how two identical music files sound different through exactly the same process and system. Or are you just chipping in like teacher's pet with no contribution to make?

Joe

quote:

Originally posted by pcstockton:

quote:

The onus is not on proving a negative.

The onus is for you not to simply trash another's experience before you do the A/B yourself.

I don't know about "trashing". Raising expectation bias as a theory is reasonable enough. This kind of debate does get tiresome, though.

"night and day"? If only the path to improvement was that clear to me. I struggle to hear the improvements brought about by anything other than major component upgrades (e.g. my SuperNait is noticeably better than my Audiolab was); and speaker positioning, which is just huge in terms of value for money.

I think his "give it a shot" implies procurement of the required cable. I remember doing this test, using a Hiline, and found the HDX analog output to be a bit more natural sounding. But it was a close thing, IIRC. I can't remember if the SN had a HC on it when I did my comparison or not. That might make a difference. I have not been able to isolate/determine how much better the DAC in the SN performs when an external PS is attached because I imagine that other parts of the signal chain in the SN are improved beyond just the dac.

Thanks Connon!

Regards,
Michel

Agreed Winky. Expectation bias is my contention - and when I went to school (admittedly a long time ago) the onus was on proof positive, not negative. Anyone can make a claim no matter how wild.

I do have a large sum of money that I am prepared to wager that nobody on this forum can reliably pick (i.e. to a statistically significant extent) without identifying them prior to listening, an HDX WAV rip against Mac and PC WAV rips sitting on the same third party drive and played through the same set up.

Your witness.

Joe

I really did say night and day in jest reference to a previous post which used the expression and have said that I used the expression as hyperbole humor. Am I typing too fast? I have stated that there is a sonic and musically meaningful difference between the rips. Yes, tiresome debate. No end in sight. Blah Blah Blah. I'm just reporting my honest experience here. I'm not interested in selling snake oil. I want real, repeatable results just like everyone here wants. I gain customers by helping them. I am on my own quest for knowledge and don't want myself to be deceived.

Yes, Patrick is my pet. Good Patrick.

Again, please follow the data and results that best support your paradigm. There are obviously different experiences here and I don't believe that anything will get solved here with the language we have available to us. So please just let me report that I have had an experience and let it be without telling me I am doing the industry a disservice. Unless you can prove your omniscience, and then, by all means...

quote:

Originally posted by Klout10:
Since I own a HDX and SuperNait myself, I find this very interesting to read. The analogue output of the HDX is connected to the SuperNait using the Hi-Line. Unfortunately, I do not have a DC1 (or other cable) to connect the digital output of the HDX to the SuperNait DAC.

Do you guys think it's worth the effort to get one and give it a try? I don't know why, but I've always had the idea that the HDX DAC would outperform the DAC in the SuperNait...

Regards,
Michel

Michel,

Having heard all three, I would say the SN Dac is behind the HDX Dac which is behind the nDAC. The nDAC improves the HDX. The SN Dac is imo further behind the other two. It was essentially a useful add-on but is easily bettered by much cheaper stand alones - all IMO of course. Look forward to seeing what you think if you compare them.

Joe

quote:

Yes, Patrick is my pet. Good Patrick.

purr.....

quote:

Done plenty of A/Bs have you? I'm sure you can explain how two identical music files sound different through exactly the same process and system.

Sorry if I misunderstood Joe's post, but I thought he was implying that a dealer's bias towards something they sell invalidates their opinions. I trust most, if not all, dealers in this forum regarding motives.

I cannot explain how two apparently "proper" rips sound different. I have not experienced it myself. All proper rips to ANY lossless codec have always sounded identical to me.

I chose FLAC as it appeared to be most ubiquitous when I started ripping years ago. But I am open to possibility of an HDX/Serve rip to WAV sounding better. I dont think it is impossible. Computer based audio is a strange beast at times.

I am slightly skeptical that a proper EAC rip will sound meaningfully different from an HDX. They use identical methods. But, and here we will probably part ways, I would not be surprised if a iTunes rip sounded inferior.

-Patrick

@ Klout10
I did the demo myself: HDX analog out vs HDX digital out into a SN/HC. IMO they are on par...
But in your case, you have an hi-line and you don't have an hicap.
So, the logic would suggest that your configuration should be better!

It has been shown on this thread that iTunes can produce a rip of a Naim cd that is identical to the same track downloaded from the Naim store, in that both rips have the same checksums. This is an experiment that anyone can repeat.

Then we will be in a better position to judge his reports of his experience.
Now that HDX rips are accessible, it would be a simple matter for someone - perhaps connon price, for he is claiming that differerences exist - to compute the checksums of an HDX rip, and compare them with checksums from iTunes/EAC rips and the Accuraterip database, and the Naim store rips.

This thread was about SN/HC2 combination, a bare SN is a very different proposition IMO.

quote:

Which puts the internal DACS of the HDX and SN on about level par. Which seems about right IMO. Not a patch on the nDAC though, even bare.

IIRC the HDX and the Supernait actually share the same DAC hardwear.

AllenB - in theory I agree with you. I have done numerous tests between ripped sources (but not a HDX) and as yet I cannot tell the difference between any of them or FLAC & WAV. But I remain open to the idea there can be HIFI Voodoo involved somewhere!

also the NDAC/XPS2 or PS555 is one of the true hi end digital sources in the world, and very serious pieces of kit.

There's no getting around it, it is the very best, and it is expensive.

I don't own a SN, because I prefer separates, so for me the NDAC is the only naim dac I can use into my 202/200

If would be nice if there were a Ndac junior with can accept power from a flatcap or hicap.....

Ali, the HDX is not improved through a SN DAC. A NDAC clearly improves a HDX. This is sans any PS on the DAC. Do the math.

John - suggest you do that math yourself. I did not say a SN internal dac improves on HDX.

quote:

Originally posted by kifco:
[quote]If I had a SN/HC2, I am not sure I would invest in an outboard dac. I would spend my money somewhere else.
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Thanks for that. I'm really happy with my SN and the addition of the HC2 gave a massive improvement, but the Naim DAC has been so well received that I had to ask the question.

This accords with my view. I love my SN/HC combo and would only consider an nDAC as part of a strategy to go to separates. Now if only Naim would release a product that melded the nDAC and reference pre-amp. A "252d" that accepted SPDIF and output to a 300. That would be something.

Posted by Kifco
"Quote"

As the OP on this thread I haven't been convinced by the arguments for adding the Naim DAC unless, as occean suggested, I was thinking of moving to a pre/power combination in future, which I am not.
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Posted by Kifco
"Quote"

Thanks for that. I'm really happy with my SN and the addition of the HC2 gave a massive improvement, but the Naim DAC has been so well received that I had to ask the question.

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Posted by winkyincanada
"Quote"

This accords with my view. I love my SN/HC combo and would only consider an nDAC as part of a strategy to go to separates. Now if only Naim would release a product that melded the nDAC and reference pre-amp. A "252d" that accepted SPDIF and output to a 300. That would be something.
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Yes, I agree entirely, a reference DAC/Pre would do it for me too. Until then my SN/HC2 will do just fine, thank you.

it doesn't help when certain member like Thorsten Lux come out and states "it blows the SN internal dac to the moon and back". Maybe mr Luxen had just finished listening to the Savage garden track with the same name?

there seems to be a lot of encouragement to spend more money on this forum, but it is always, always the best way forward? it sure can be, but only if you can afford it

So many of these advice seeking questions seem to be related to affordability. Is 300 better than 250? how much better? Is Naim Dac better than SN internal dac. Yes of course they are, but can you afford it?

Ali,

I agree that afordability is a vital issue when it comes to a personal decision about the acquisition of any piece of hifi-kit.

However, this thread is purely about the sonic advantages of each of thee mentioned DACs in the defined constellation and I think we all agree that the N-Dac is significantly better than the SN Dac (even if the SN is supported by a HC or SC), we may however deviate in our opoinion about the actual grade of improvement the N-Dac provides.

For me it was one of the better upgrades (not like Stageline to Superline however) and I am very curious about other products to come in that area.

In general, we should all try to focus more on the actual questions asked in the relevant threads rather than to defend our positions against other who do not share them.

Well said. The question was about upgrade also but source will do more than an amp or speaker upgrade, assuming he likes his. Ndac is a clear upgrade on any more moderately priced DAC. Of course these differences may be minimized by poor player or compressed files. I'd also assume 99% of us don't use post processing besides.

Ali, the math was that given a very consistant stream, the results are also very consistant.

"Given a consistent stream, the result are also very consistent"
???