Naim DAC with Supernait/Hicap2

Excuse the spelling but given a good source, the DAC will be a very noticable improvement. The HDX removes a lot of varialbles in terms of player, file types and processes to make for a consistent test.

[quote]
Posted by js

Well said. The question was about upgrade also but source will do more than an amp or speaker upgrade, assuming he likes his. Ndac is a clear upgrade on any more moderately priced DAC. Of course these differences may be minimized by poor player or compressed files. I'd also assume 99% of us don't use post processing besides.

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Thank you. That is exactly why I shall not be upgrading my SN/HC2 which, in my dedicated listening room, is a wonderful combination. I am hoping at some stage to add a quality Naim streamer as my source - subject to one ever being available, of course !!.

John I don't disagree. Personally when I heard the NDAC/SN (bare) combo in dubai audio it was brilliant.

But it costs almost the same as the SN.

But that bit is up to the buyer and since it was optioned in the op, obviously acceptable. I doubt there's a better place to spend that amount.

Well I would suggest, if it was my money and I could afford it comfortably, I would buy an NDAC AND a suitable pre to feed into the SN. That would really get the best of the Ndac. and when funds allow, XPS2 !

NDAC/SN is a very, very good combo though. It had amazing PRAT and for me that is what counts.

Dear Kifco, you can only decide for yourself. I would suggest you audition an NDAC (which is a really special source) and compare it to your onboard DAC.

both points of view are valid that you heard here. If you want to take your SN to the next level, then the NDAC will take you there.

with the NDAC, everything is just much more defined, more PRAT, soundstage, just as Thorsten said. The bass is better, and music sounds more exciting.

quote:

Originally posted by ali 026:
Well I would suggest, if it was my money and I could afford it comfortably, I would buy an NDAC AND a suitable pre to feed into the SN.

That strikes me as quite a pointless setup. Why have a SN at all if you by-pass the internal Dac and Pre-amp? Just get a 200?

quote:

Originally posted by winkyincanada:

quote:

Originally posted by ali 026:
Well I would suggest, if it was my money and I could afford it comfortably, I would buy an NDAC AND a suitable pre to feed into the SN.

That strikes me as quite a pointless setup. Why have a SN at all if you by-pass the internal Dac and Pre-amp? Just get a 200?

which is where I have my doubts about bypassing the SN internal dac with the NDAC (without a pre). It was supposed to be a complete solution?

there is no doubt at all the the NDAC/SN sounds extremely good, but then it's not one box anymore, it's 3 boxes with the HC, and if we're going down the multi box road, then just get a pre/power and NDAC...

Okay - so has anyone compared Nait XS + DAC to the SuperNait + HiCap? Source first?

Eloise

PS. I know that isn't the topic of the original question but though maybe interesting...

quote:

Originally posted by Eloise:
Okay - so has anyone compared Nait XS + DAC to the SuperNait + HiCap? Source first?

Eloise

PS. I know that isn't the topic of the original question but though maybe interesting...

I have.

NDAC + XS is extremely good.
I would take NDAC + XS over SN/HC. It's a close call (the HC improves the SN), but ultimately the extra PRaT of the NDAC is the winning factor for me.

quote:

Originally posted by ali 026:

quote:

Originally posted by winkyincanada:

quote:

Originally posted by ali 026:
Well I would suggest, if it was my money and I could afford it comfortably, I would buy an NDAC AND a suitable pre to feed into the SN.

That strikes me as quite a pointless setup. Why have a SN at all if you by-pass the internal Dac and Pre-amp? Just get a 200?

which is where I have my doubts about bypassing the SN internal dac with the NDAC (without a pre). It was supposed to be a complete solution?

there is no doubt at all the the NDAC/SN sounds extremely good, but then it's not one box anymore, it's 3 boxes with the HC, and if we're going down the multi box road, then just get a pre/power and NDAC...

OK, now I'm confused. You first said that you would do an nDAC/Pre/SN if you had the money, now you seem to be agreeing that it is pointless. Huh?

and the SN was too costly for him as is. I have never heard of anyone adding a Preamp to the SN nor is it anything I would ever recommend. If you want seperates, trade it back.

quote:

Originally posted by js:
and the SN was too costly for him as is. I have never heard of anyone adding a Preamp to the SN nor is it anything I would ever recommend. If you want seperates, trade it back.

Thanks js. It's not just me who is confused then.

Separates offer the best path to upgrade. Agree wholeheartedly. The whole SN thing is a near "self-contained" package. Add a HiCap and you're done. Perfect for me at this stage.

But it is a big step from my humble two boxes to a nDAC/Pre/Power/PSU setup to maintain my digital capability. I basically have to start again, and I need three boxes to replace one (assuming I keep my HiCap). But an nDAC combined with a 252 in one box would get me seriously thinking. Kind of a digital pre-amp. I can move to to separates (of a sort) and only increase my box-count by one (just like the old days).

I don't see nearly so much of a sonic compromise putting DAC and Pre-amp in one box compared to trying to combine a power-amp with a pre-amp in one box (which works great up to about a SN-like point).

Cheers.

quote:

Originally posted by js:
and the SN was too costly for him as is. I have never heard of anyone adding a Preamp to the SN nor is it anything I would ever recommend. If you want seperates, trade it back.

John - I think it was clear I thought that the NDAC was expensive. are you deliberately trying to misquote me? Not good for a naim dealer and a man of your standing.

You wouldn't recommend it, but on this forum, there was a member who tried XS/250 and 282/XS and went for 282/XS.

It's something that is not discussed enough here, that you can add a preamp to XS/SN and is a good upgrade path. Especially for those who cannot trade in their amps...

quote:

Originally posted by winkyincanada:

quote:

Originally posted by ali 026:

quote:

Originally posted by winkyincanada:

quote:

Originally posted by ali 026:
Well I would suggest, if it was my money and I could afford it comfortably, I would buy an NDAC AND a suitable pre to feed into the SN.

That strikes me as quite a pointless setup. Why have a SN at all if you by-pass the internal Dac and Pre-amp? Just get a 200?

which is where I have my doubts about bypassing the SN internal dac with the NDAC (without a pre). It was supposed to be a complete solution?

there is no doubt at all the the NDAC/SN sounds extremely good, but then it's not one box anymore, it's 3 boxes with the HC, and if we're going down the multi box road, then just get a pre/power and NDAC...

OK, now I'm confused. You first said that you would do an nDAC/Pre/SN if you had the money, now you seem to be agreeing that it is pointless. Huh?

Well one can use a SN as a power amp, and if I had one (which I don't) that would be my upgrade path, but it defeats the whole one box solution doesn't it? Which is exactly what you are saying too. So can Naim please think of a Preamp/DAC solution.... I'd like one too...

Also - after a few days of thinking about it, the NDAC is actually a pretty upgrade to the SN. It sure does sound better. I like that Ndac a lot and now if I had a SN, maybe it would be a worthwhile upgrade.

The point being that people reading others opinions should not take them as gospel. Please listen for yourselves. My test was for a limited time, and not in my own home with my speakers.

quote:

Originally posted by winkyincanada:
...But an nDAC combined with a 252 in one box would get me seriously thinking. Kind of a digital pre-amp....

Hi WinkyinCanada -

Are you aware any audio manufacturer currently building a DAC into their preamp?

I understand the value prop of integrated amps, especially ones with built-in DACs (Supernait, Peachtree Nova, etc.). Nice all-around'ers, space savers, but typically not best-of-breed in any one category.

I also understand the value prop of separates. Individual upgrade paths, often leading to world-class performance.

Not sure I see the appeal of adding a DAC to a preamp. Feels like a bit of a "toss in" to me. Wouldn't be enough integration for most trying to save space, and wouldn't likely meet the performance goals of those committed to separates.

Hook

quote:

Perfect for me at this stage.

Exactly. Just because it is possible to upgrade it doesn't mean what you have isn't producing REALLY REALLY REALLY good music.

I bet a SN would rival my 102/180/NAPSC, and if it doesn't I bet it is VERY close.

The SN is the reason I own Naim gear. I wish I could have afforded a new one the day I found it (it was just released).

quote:

Not sure I see the appeal of adding a DAC to a preamp.

I agree, but in the case of an integrated amp i feel otherwise. As long as you are jamming the pre and power in the same box, why not toss in a reasonably decent DAC chip/implementation and call it a day.

-p

Cyrus do actually sell a pre with a dac built in.

winkyincanada wrote:

[quote]The whole SN thing is a near "self-contained" package. Add a HiCap and you're done. Perfect for me at this stage.

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I agree, if I wanted to go pre/power and have a room full of boxes I would trade-in the SN/HC2 and start again.

ghook2020 wrote:

[quote]Not sure I see the appeal of adding a DAC to a preamp.

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I think that in an age when many of us are now using only computer sources that the whole pre-amp concept is due for some serious revision. For example, how many on this part of the forum are still using the lower row of buttons on their pre-amp/SN - do these things have to be so backward compatible?

Another thread might be appropriate here, I think.

quote:

Originally posted by ghook2020:
Not sure I see the appeal of adding a DAC to a preamp. Feels like a bit of a "toss in" to me. Wouldn't be enough integration for most trying to save space, and wouldn't likely meet the performance goals of those committed to separates.

Maybe the desire would be more to "toss a preamp" (volume control and correct buffering, etc.) into the DAC.

Quite a few companies make DACs which connect direct to Poweramps.

Eloise

quote:

Maybe it's more of "tossing a preamp (volume control) into the DAC.

Quite a few companies make DACs which connect direct to Poweramps.

Eloise

For em this is the way I would want to go - currently have no analogue source and can't see that changing.

quote:

Originally posted by Eloise:

quote:

Originally posted by ghook2020:
Not sure I see the appeal of adding a DAC to a preamp. Feels like a bit of a "toss in" to me. Wouldn't be enough integration for most trying to save space, and wouldn't likely meet the performance goals of those committed to separates.

Maybe the desire would be more to "toss a preamp" (volume control and correct buffering, etc.) into the DAC.

Quite a few companies make DACs which connect direct to Poweramps.

Eloise

Hi Eloise -

Gotcha! Put that way, and Benchmark comes to mind as a good example.

So perhaps it all boils down to your source(s). If they are all digital, this may seem like a natural point of integration. Perhaps the only reason this seemed off to me is that I have both digital and analog sources.

So is there a good technical argument for doing this? Is there something to be gained in sound quality versus a DAC and preamp separates?

I recently read a review of an Icon Audio PS3 phono stage. It has volume control and can be directly attached to power amp. I dismissed the idea (and ordered the Superline) because I also have digital sources and need a preamp. But the reviewer made the case that the sound quality was dramatically improved by bypassing his preamp. On the analog side, there always seems to be a case for shorter signal paths being better. Just wondering if this, or any other design point would make a DAC/preamp sound better than separates.

Another question: If I had both the Icon Audio PS3 and the Benchmark DAC1 Pre, is there any good way to connect both to a single set of speakers? Has anyone come up with a good solution for switching?

Thanks.

Hook

quote:

Originally posted by ghook2020:
Another question: If I had both the Icon Audio PS3 and the Benchmark DAC1 Pre, is there any good way to connect both to a single set of speakers? Has anyone come up with a good solution for switching?

Well maybe not a good example as the Benchmark DAC1 Pre has a analogue input too - though not fixed level. I suppose you could have a single analogue input switched via the volume on a nDAC-Pre in the same way if the volume is done in analogue domain.

The Wyred4Sound DAC2 has a analogue "bypass" function which allows a single analogue input to be switched through to the analogue outputs - their suggestion being for a HT system. No volume control as the volume on a Wyred4Sound DAC2 is done in digital domain.

A few power-amps have front panel switchable dual inputs - this would be closest to ideal I guess.

All possible solutions but all have drawbacks.

Eloise

quote:

Originally posted by ali 026:

quote:

Originally posted by js:
and the SN was too costly for him as is. I have never heard of anyone adding a Preamp to the SN nor is it anything I would ever recommend. If you want seperates, trade it back.

John - I think it was clear I thought that the NDAC was expensive. are you deliberately trying to misquote me? Not good for a naim dealer and a man of your standing.

You wouldn't recommend it, but on this forum, there was a member who tried XS/250 and 282/XS and went for 282/XS.

It's something that is not discussed enough here, that you can add a preamp to XS/SN and is a good upgrade path. Especially for those who cannot trade in their amps...

No, you're just all over the map here. In those threads you've mentioned, only one recommended that combo when asked about options and the case is quite different with an XS. It can't be traded for a 200 like a SN without significant outlay so an interim step here is more cost effective. He wont keep it that way and he also didn't lose a DAC in the process which this OP uses. These were upgrade path issues with a seperate amp in mind, to be taken to a further state than the OP here asked for as he likes his fewer boxes.

The pre in the SN is also better than the XS though clearly no 282 from which it was based and responds more noticably to a PS. A 282 also costs twice an Ndac which again asks why you thought the DAC too costly. Each situation is unique and doesn't necessarily extrapolate to another. I also didn't recommend an amp here which was the either or question regarding upgrade path on the xs. Source is key and I understand we differ greatly there.

I know that one thing you have against the SN is something you read about field induced noise from a larger transformer. The reason Naim use outboards in their pre's. You'll be happy to know that Naim have it as quiet as an XS and it's been that way since before that review hit the stands.