Naim DAC with Supernait/Hicap2

This whole Naim onboard dac situation is getting increasingly confusing. The recently announced NDX, for example, is going to make the SN dac redundant, but if you follow Naim's suggested upgrade path and add a Naim DAC to the NDX, then the NDX's dac is also redundant In my opinion, this is just wasting good money that could be spent more effectively on other parts of the system.

Hi John

I wish with the SN it were only the Stereophile review. But every time I head the SN, there is something I quite don't like about the voicing. The XS has the same issue, that the music just doesn't flow naturally the way it does in the 202/200. Maybe it's just my taste...

as for source first, actually I do believe in it, and I'm going to buy a good source soon. I agreed that I would not discuss the Burwen software anymore on this forum, so ... I won't.

One day if I am ever in Chicago, it would be great to visit you in your showroom.

quote:

Originally posted by kifco:
This whole Naim onboard dac situation is getting increasingly confusing. The recently announced NDX, for example, is going to make the SN dac redundant, but if you follow Naim's suggested upgrade path and add a Naim DAC to the NDX, then the NDX's dac is also redundant In my opinion, this is just wasting good money that could be spent more effectively on other parts of the system.

Yes - good point. 3000 GBP isn't cheap, and to spend another 2000 GBP for the NDAC?

Isn't better to spend the 2000 GBP on upgrading the pre or the power? or an XPS for the NDX?

On a positive note, we do a lot of choices now and nobody is forcing anyone to upgrade to an NDAC if you have an NDX.

My understanding is that the internal DAC would be very close to the stand alone with the greatest differences having to do with PS and analog circuits. I would think external PS would become more benefitial that the stand alone DAC when time came for an upgrade.

quote:

Originally posted by js:
My understanding is that the internal DAC would be very close to the stand alone with the greatest differences having to do with PS and analog circuits. I would think external PS would become more benefitial that the stand alone DAC when time came for an upgrade.

Would a PS upgrade provide the same benefit to the NDX's DAC as it does to the standalone DAC?

Wondering if any DAC owners would consider trading their DAC in for an NDX?

Guess it will all depend on how close the two really are in sound quality....

Hook

My take is that the outboard will always be a bit better as it's not sharing supply and has the better output stage. Trading in would only be for convenience but at the same time; I think someone looking to upgrade a NDX would take a different route than DAC unless(until) a reference DAC comes along.

IC output will probably mean a smoother but less solid presentation which I'm beginning to believe some here may prefer anyway.

it's a cost/benefit question.

Maybe the NDAC is better than the NDX sonically, but is it GBP 2000 better?

quote:

Originally posted by js:
My take is that the outboard will always be a bit better as it's not sharing supply and has the better output stage. Trading in would only be for convenience but at the same time; I think someone looking to upgrade a NDX would take a different route than DAC unless(until) a reference DAC comes along.

The NDAC is not a reference DAC? at GBP 2000 it sure should be !
My understanding is that it is a reference dac, which is upgradable by XP2 and all the way to PS555

Reference series. You sure like your terminology. Don't worry, the current DAC will do your 'reference' speakers right. It's my current reference for dacness but like all things, not perfect.

quote:

Originally posted by ali 026:

quote:

Originally posted by js:
My take is that the outboard will always be a bit better as it's not sharing supply and has the better output stage. Trading in would only be for convenience but at the same time; I think someone looking to upgrade a NDX would take a different route than DAC unless(until) a reference DAC comes along.

The NDAC is not a reference DAC? at GBP 2000 it sure should be !
My understanding is that it is a reference dac, which is upgradable by XP2 and all the way to PS555

Well if the "reference" level CDP is the CD555 at £15,000 (is that right?) why wouldn't you expect a higher level DAC? It's like CDS3 upgraded with PS555 then upgrade the "head" to the CD555.

Though looked at another way it's the "reference" DAC as it's currently the best!

Eloise

quote:

Originally posted by js:
Reference series. You sure like your terminology. Don't worry, the current DAC will do your 'reference' speakers right. It's my current reference for dacness but like all things, not perfect.

your sarcasm about a well known, well liked and great sounding speaker (B&W 805S) seems strange.

We've had this discussion before, so can you drop it? Unless you want to start the debate of how abbey road use them and your views that it's a marketing trick from B&W, and how Abbey Road aren't the only game in town, and how your recordings are award winning bla bla bla....

Dear Ali,

get a better source.

quote:

it doesn't help when certain member like Thorsten Lux come out and states "it blows the SN internal dac to the moon and back". Maybe mr Luxen had just finished listening to the Savage garden track with the same name?

Right, your expert postings are sky-rocketing...

quote:

I think we all agree that the N-Dac is significantly better than the SN Dac (even if the SN is supported by a HC or SC

This is all there is to say.

quote:

Originally posted by Thorsten_Lux:
Dear Moderators, someone with such a source should not be allowed to state expert findings, IMHO.

quote:

B&W 805S Naim 202/200 PS3/Ipod/Laptop with external soundcard Burwen bobcat software

Actually I do appreciate the encouragement to get a decent source, Thorsten.

I am doing research on this, and in the meantime, my system sounds musical and fun... I'm sorry, but it does....
I don't know how it could be, it was the same when I first auditioned it 4 years ago with a lowly Ipod, it's musically satisfying.

Actually I got what naim is about the first time I heard it, it's about the music.

That rythmic drive, live sound, expresso shot as you put it, it's still there with my Ipod and Sony PS3 analog out and B&W speakers.

Maybe I'm missing some bass and treble, some midrange purity, but the music fills my room, and that's all that matters.

PS : my 202/200 is still running in and when it sounds as good as the demo unit I heard 4 years ago, then I will be able to judge how much an improvement a source (preferably Naim) brings to the music and to my entertainment.

quote:

Originally posted by ali 026:

quote:

Originally posted by js:
Reference series. You sure like your terminology. Don't worry, the current DAC will do your 'reference' speakers right. It's my current reference for dacness but like all things, not perfect.

your sarcasm about a well known, well liked and great sounding speaker (B&W 805S) seems strange.

We've had this discussion before, so can you drop it? Unless you want to start the debate of how abbey road use them and your views that it's a marketing trick from B&W, and how Abbey Road aren't the only game in town, and how your recordings are award winning bla bla bla....

I didn't comment on the quality of your speaker and wont. Just that you call it reference quality and in it's case it's also far from the top of their line. Take a chill pill and stop using double standards. Like I said, you're all over the map.

The more I read of Ali's posts, the more I am convinced that it is a spoof.

Materials for Sacha Baran Cohen's next movie ?

Paul

quote:

Originally posted by PBenny1066:
The more I read of Ali's posts, the more I am convinced that it is a spoof.

Materials for Sacha Baran Cohen's next movie ?

Paul

Actually not.

I wasn't kidding when I said my Ipod into my naims gives me good music.

for me, music is entertainment, and I'm least bothered to obtain the last bit of bass and treble image and sound stage.

Soundstage, what bollocks anyway.

Ipod works fine for me. Spoof that if you wish.

quote:

Originally posted by js:

quote:

Originally posted by ali 026:

quote:

Originally posted by js:
Reference series. You sure like your terminology. Don't worry, the current DAC will do your 'reference' speakers right. It's my current reference for dacness but like all things, not perfect.

your sarcasm about a well known, well liked and great sounding speaker (B&W 805S) seems strange.

We've had this discussion before, so can you drop it? Unless you want to start the debate of how abbey road use them and your views that it's a marketing trick from B&W, and how Abbey Road aren't the only game in town, and how your recordings are award winning bla bla bla....

I didn't comment on the quality of your speaker and wont. Just that you call it reference quality and in it's case it's also far from the top of their line. Take a chill pill and stop using double standards. Like I said, you're all over the map.

I would not be the only one.

That's the thing about this hobby or passion. You hear something, you like it, but then think about it, change your mind, and maybe go buy it, maybe not.

Honestly Ali. All that matters is that you're listening and happy. We can always agree to disagree.

quote:

Originally posted by js:
Honestly Ali. All that matters is that you're listening and happy. We can always agree to disagree.

Thanks. Before Naim I had a yamaha home theatre receiver for movies and music (which cost the same as one Powerline) , and lived with that for 4 years and it entertained me just fine musically...

Good for you, Ali! If the system you have gives you listening pleasure, then what more could you want.

quote:

Originally posted by Thorsten_Lux:
I have the nDAC with the SN/HC2.

The nDAC blows the internal SN-DAC to the moon and back.

I compared my SB Touch on the nDAC/SN/HC versus SB Touch/SN/HC...DAY AND NIGHT.

If our Mr Ali couldnt hear a difference between the nDAC/SN/HC and the SN-DAC/HC then something is either wrong with the setup or with his ears.

I even comapred my DVD-player on both DACs.
Really, the nDAC is in another universe.

If you put a decent wav-file on an USB-stick and you feed it to the nDAC, IMHO, this is on of the best digital replay-solutions there is, for the money spent of course.

kifco,
take the nDAC home with you and try some 5$ USB-stick...NIRVANA!!!!

Ali, again, not a very good advice, sorry....

Dear Kifko

Made the same test as which done by Thorsten but my result was a bit different.
Pairing an SB3 (as i my config) the nDac is not required in regard of the price of this nice pieces...the SN Dac is more than enought for the SB3.
Of course with an better source the result would pehaps bit less obvious...but the price too ;-)

Ali,
all that matters is that you are happy with your Ipod as a source.

BUT:

Please stop giving people advices with such a source.

Please stop talking about "It is not necessary to buy a more expensive item."

Of course it is not, but what is the use???

Then why inventing the CD555, if it is not necessary to go for the top.

Maybe you or someone cannot, due to whatever reason, afford for example a better source. That is fine. But you always present your "experiences" in your weird HiFi-world as top-notch and if attacked you always refer to: "Well, more expensive is not always better."

So why did you go for the 200/202???

@Absolute

I understand your findings.
But in my system, the difference with a SB Touch as source into the nDAC and then into the SN-DAC represented a huge margin...

Maybe because my SN, nDAC and HiCap are Powerline´d...anyhow, the diff was really amazingly big.

I don't know much about the sound of the Supernait's DAC, as I heard it only fed by analog sources, but I know how a nDAC sounds when coupled to a Nait XS: Fabulous!

Thorsten_Lux pointed something interesting in his interventions; He's able to appreciate a clear difference between the SN's DAC and the nDAC. That difference seems to matter a lot to him, enough to justify the extra outlay for the nDAC.

The popular saying state this as "diminishing return", I rather call that a personal saturation point. Where you have enough to be happy, and where another difference (better or worse) can't change anything about this feeling, as you are "saturated".

Let's take an example to explain this better; When I had my CD5i, the Hi-Line had a dramatic effect on it, and to go back with Naim standard interconnect was a simple no-no. Now with the Naim DAC, the Hi-Line effect is still there, but I could perfectly live happy with the standard interconnect.

The Naim DAC allowed me to reach my saturation point in my system. Another person could reach his own saturation point with the Supernait's DAC, and even if he's trying a Naim DAC maxed out with a 555PS, won't be able to appreciate the difference at a level convincing enough to him as essential to his happiness state.

My belief is that saturation point is not static, and will evolve with the listening experience gained over time, leading to what we usualy call an "upgraditis" condition.

So by all means, have a listen to the Naim DAC to hear what the fuzz's about. We never know, you may like it enough to bring it home to stay. No one could answer better to that question than yourself.

Bye.

This Naim forum is a great source of information and insight for anyone trying to better understand the Naim product line, where ones own system fits in relation to the product hierarchy and where to move next and how to get there in the most economical and rewarding way, if upgrading is ones intention. Even if it isn't, most contributions here still make for some very interesting and informative reading. It is probably fair to say that we all benefit from those who have had long experience with Naim equipment, have owned different products and versions over the years and are generous enough to share their experiences and insight. Equally, interesting questions or thought provoking contributions that stimulate discussion are fruitful and they do add value for all of us here. I for one am thankful for the wealth of really useful information in this forum, including the many stimulating discussions by people who have had something to add. The forum is best served by contributing quality not quantity. Keep it real, and most importantly, keep a perspective on what people are actually interested in. I would think that most of us here are probably not too interested in people's personal differences or petty feuds. Equally, I would be surprised if people really cared about never ending comments and opinions on all and everything up and down the Naim product line by members who have very little first hand experience and seem to be out of their depth. It is just verbal gibberish, nothing but mental masturbation. And it is just sooooo boooooooring. Good Night!!!

Btw. the NDAC makes a huge difference and it is probably the cheapest upgrade you can get in terms of vfm, even if you already own a SNAIT & HC. Source 1st, without a doubt. No matter what ears you have. Unless deaf of course.