Phono stages

Posted by: Tony L on 21 August 2001

Phono stages.
Looks like I will need to start thinking about out board phono stages. I'm predictably looking to get the job done as cheaply as possible. The ones that come to mind are:

Tom Evans Micro Groove - its relatively affordable at 400 quid, and everyone seems to love it out there in hi-fi land.
Naim Stageline - Quite expensive as it would mean retaining my Hicap, and I really want to sell that to get some cash in to my CDX fund. Effectively this option is 170 quid more than the Micro Groove, is it better. Oh, I don't want to go for the even more expensive Prefix as I am not prepared to screw up my RB900 to fit it - I bought the P9 new, so want to take a minimum financial hit on it when I come to sell it.
Densen DP-02 - I am not sure how much this costs, though suspect it will be around the 400 mark. Is it any good? I know I love their amplifiers, so that’s a start.
John Linsley Hood RIAA stage - Available in kit form for about 220 quid with a reasonable external PSU ( http://users.classicfm.net/williamshart/phono.htm ). Cheapest option by far, but has anyone heard one. I would be more than capable of building it neatly, but do not have the electronics knowledge to tweak or modify it. Obviously the biggest risk as I wouldn't be able to dem it, this is the option I am the least interested in due to this fact.

I can't think of a lot else out there at the sort of price I want to pay, any ideas? How much does the likes of a Linto or the Exposure stage change hands for second hand? Either might be a pretty good option.

Ideas folks?

Tony.

Posted on: 22 August 2001 by Tony L

Woodface:

quote:
But I would just like to suggest that you really take your time over this decision, as once you have jumped it will very difficult to get to the level you are at.

I certainly plan to take my time, I only need to start juggling things around once I firmly decide to ditch the big amp. The Nait 2 is costing pocket money, and I could easily sell it or the Nait 1 on if I do decide to keep the 32.5 / 250 etc (I have had offers already for it, and I haven’t even got it yet!). There will be no financial hit at all here. Of all the things I am toying with selling, only the CD player was bought new, I won’t loose out on anything else. Of the proposed new stuff, obviously I will take depreciation on the phono stage if I dem at (and therefore buy from!) a dealer, assuming I can find a dealer who has the stuff I want to hear, otherwise I will buy second hand and just sell it on a bit later if I don’t like it.

Having a second system is a real bonus (I have a Revolver Rebel, Nait 1 Heybrook Point Five system in the studio), so if there is a transition stage whilst I check out phono stages etc then I can still spin some disks in the meantime. Bottom line is that I can back out at any time with no loss, nothing I am selling is irreplaceable (though is mint, boxed, and recapped… ahem!).
Alex:

quote:
Then I had some money and bought a CDX and my upgraditis suddenly started.

Interesting. I have heard quite a few CDXs, but admittedly not in my own system. Dave Cattlin’s sounds excellent, its certainly not up to his fully Naimed LP12, but it is not embarrassed in its company either. I have heard several cheaper and simpler systems based around this player at the Audio Counsel sounding remarkably good, plus Rico has one with an XPS that also delivers the goods. I like the idea that it is upgradeable too – CDX / XPS / Nait 2 / Kans sounds like a good system to me!

There is also something that I have over the past few years I have come to realise that I don’t get on with about the many “big” systems that I have heard. I think there is a point with equipment as good as Naim where the amplifiers and speakers become way too good for the source component or source material, and reveal it too explicitly, especially when that source is digital. I can’t quite explain what I mean in words, but sit me in front of a really high resolution system and I get distracted by the sound and presentation, and as a result find the music much harder to follow. I guess a lot of this is probably because I have a fair bit of experience in the techniques of music creation and recording, so having say mic types and placement revealed etc is just more information than I want. I just want to get lost in the music, and funnily I usually find this easier to do with very well balanced but quite modest systems. Basically I don’t even aspire to the real high end!

Tony.

Posted on: 22 August 2001 by John C

Joe thanks.

I love these analogue/philosophy threads.

John

Posted on: 22 August 2001 by John G.

Hi Tony,

I enjoy your posts. I would really try to remove the speaker from your TV before sorting out your system. I just remember the many comparisons we did in the old days bringing things like beepers in cameras or placing a speaker face down in the carpet etc... of the listening room. A/B's under these conditions were MUCH degraded and MUCH harder to sort out.

Should be a significant improvement unless there's other undriven items in the room as well.

Regards,
John

Posted on: 22 August 2001 by Lo Fi Si

Tony
Not sure where you reside. My local au..mumble-T guys have Tom Evans and Naim phono stages and do stock Densen (not sure if they have any phonos in stock). They even lent me a TE micro groove for a few days home demo b4 I got one.

Simon

Posted on: 23 August 2001 by JWinston

Tony,
I am absolutely on the same page as you. Currently running an LP12/Ittok into Nait 2 into Kans (early scanspeak ones). I consider myself done as far as amp and speakers are concerned
Recently parted with a pricey Grado cart and am currently enjoying very much a second-hand Audionote IQ-1 - the thing just sings in my system.
BUT, I do yearn for the low-output mc waters. An option that seems especially intriguing, given my Nait's MM section, is a transformer. Transformer devotees suggest there's no finer way to go LO. Haven't tried it, yet, but I'm more than a little curious.
I will certainly be eager to hear what you end up with.
Regards
John

Posted on: 23 August 2001 by Alex S.

quote:
There is also something that I have over the past few years I have come to realise that I don&rsquot get on with about the many &ldquobig&rdquo systems that I have heard. I think there is a point with equipment as good as Naim where the amplifiers and speakers become way too good for the source component or source material, and reveal it too explicitly, especially when that source is digital. I can&rsquot quite explain what I mean in words, but sit me in front of a really high resolution system and I get distracted by the sound and presentation, and as a result find the music much harder to follow. I guess a lot of this is probably because I have a fair bit of experience in the techniques of music creation and recording, so having say mic types and placement revealed etc is just more information than I want. I just want to get lost in the music, and funnily I usually find this easier to do with very well balanced but quite modest systems.

Your point is similar to the one I was trying to make but much better put. Thing is, I think this question of balance includes the source when the source is digital. When the source is analogue I'm as source first as you like (sorry too much source) - my first system was LP12/Ittok/Basik/NAD 3020/Mission 700s - and I went to a Troika before any other changes; but I found that a supposed upgrade of my digital source from CD3 to CDX unbalanced my system. This may have been a) because I'm just a CDX troll, b) because my CDX was underperforming, c) because I expected more from a player costing over 2K or d) because synergy was lost, deficiencies in CDs' physical and recording quality were being revealed in an unpleasant instead of rewarding fashion.

Buying the CDX transformed my musical panorama. With the CD3 I had had a rather murky window into a beautiful landscape but with the new player I had a clean, transparent window looking into an industrial estate. So don't clean any windows until you're sure of the view. It was not until I had gone all the way from CD3/32.5/HC/AE1s to CDS2/CDPS/82/S-Cap/N805s that my pastoral bliss was restored. Adding a 52 will have the effect of throwing open the French windows and filling my nostrils with the scent of newly mown grass. And at that point I shall retire.

Posted on: 23 August 2001 by Andrew L. Weekes

quote:
I thought Andy W. had a Stageline but after I posted the message I clicked on his profile to find out the lucky bastard has a Prefix

!!!

I was faced with the choice of a Stageline or Prefix when I bought the 5 series gear, I decided to splash out primarily as the Prefix wasn't another bloody box* to try and fit somewhere and it could be powered by the 112 if necessary.

Haven't looked back since. I had some minor RF problems initially, but they are all totally cured now, with some help from Naim's R&D guys (earthing problems).

quote:
Transformer devotees suggest there's no finer way to go LO. Haven't tried it, yet, but I'm more than a little curious.

John,

I ran my Nait1 with some cheap Sony (Ortofon T5 copy?) transformers when my Nait3 was being serviced - it was way better than I expected. The only thing I really missed was the extra inputs and a bit of bass extension. They're not available anymore, and are very microphonic, but it's worth considering the better alternatives.

Andy.

* The only downside to upgrading Naim kit seems to be the ever-increasing number of boxes, PSU's and cables required - I'm running out of space in my small room!

Posted on: 23 August 2001 by Tony L

Dave C:

quote:
You should really consider investing some is system set up before you simply throw more money at your system.

I am not throwing any money at all at my system, remember I play by the free hi-fi rules!

quote:
Could you not consider putting your telly in another room and optimising the stuff you have?

Nope, you have seen my flat! I don't want to have to sit in either the bedroom or studio to watch the bloody TV. I also find the hi-fi improves the watching experience so much that I could not go back to using the internal speakers.

quote:
Your system should really sound better than it does.

I know, that is why I am attempting to fix it! I want to get it to work a lot better than it does, but suggestions about moving the TV or kitchen or radiators etc are not even remotely practical. I need to get it to work better where it is, and am open to any suggestions as to how to achieve this. Bottom line is that the living space is more important to me than the hi-fi, and I will simply keep re-jigging the hi-fi until it works.

I am very open to suggestions: I will for instance definitely take the speakers out of my TV, I have been intending to do this for ages, I will also try taking the docking station for the digital phone into another room. Also remember I am new into my flat, and whenever I move I always end up re-jigging the system to get it to work in a new room, I am also working on the room, this is nothing new. I know that you fundamentally hate Mana supports, and that almost certainly represents what you dislike most about my system. I am open minded enough to evaluate this myself, and am doing just that this evening. You coming along? There will be curry and beer.

Oh, why the hell are you trying to sell your LP12? I think it is quite a lot better than your CD!

Alex:

quote:
Buying the CDX transformed my musical panorama. With the CD3 I had had a rather murky window into a beautiful landscape but with the new player I had a clean, transparent window looking into an industrial estate. So don't clean any windows until you're sure of the view.

I think I know what you mean here, and have certainly heard many CD players do this, though I have heard the CDX sound exactly the opposite - really tuneful and unfatiguing. Ironically the CD3 is one of the ones I find pretty hard going. I will certainly bare your comments in mind next time I hear a CDX (which will probably be tonight when I do the Mana vs. QS Ref thing).

John:

quote:
Currently running an LP12/Ittok into Nait 2 into Kans (early scanspeak ones). I consider myself done as far as amp and speakers are concerned.

This is exactly my point. As soon as I stuck my Nait 1 into the system I honestly thought the amount I have invested in the pre / power was no longer wisely invested. The Nait is honestly all I need.

Tony.

Posted on: 23 August 2001 by Rico

John's point re transofrmers is a rather good one.

Years ago I was kindly lent a Supex transformer to use MC with my trusty Nait 2 - it worker rather bloody well, to the point of making my OC7 (yeowch!) sound like a competent performer in LP12/Valhalla/Ittok. I know these are as rare as rocking-horse shit, but you never know where such a neast will turn up. Still, as you have a phono-stage-less Nait, I guess it's a bit of a moot point.

Alex S - yes indeed I suspect you are a bit of a CDX troll! I did enjoy very much your industrial estate/country illustration though, and understand where you are coming from.

Rico - ok, the Kans are sorted, now whatabout the rainforests?

[This message was edited by Rico on THURSDAY 23 August 2001 at 14:14.]