Heathrow Photos

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Originally posted by Manu:
Tuan
My post was sarcastic.

But, it happens 2 grades are in the same room, with only one teatcher. If you are at grade 2, but don't stop lurking at the grade 3 lessons, you can completely miss grade 2.
I mean, enjoy the mature technologies (LP,CD) now, and keep an eye on new things.

Emmanuel

All opinions are my own, and reflect those of the organisation i work for, even if not stipulated.

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Manu, I beleive that the decision to either buy an SACD or CD player depends on how many CDs and SACDs you have at home (your music collections). For me I stay with CD player and (recently) most of my purchases were from the JVC XRCD collections. Going from standard CD to SACD the modifications to the players are minimum in my opinion. The secret lies in the preservation of the audio signals after digital conversion taking place... and both players almost have the same requirements and most of high-end CD players use the same DAC anyway. The reason Naim Audio (or other brands) did not want to put it out is the market potential of the product... They play the waiting game (the format war between DVD-A and SACD). Moreover, Naim amplifiers may not be ready for SACD (cap band width).

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Originally posted by James:
Tuan,

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Moreover, Naim amplifiers may not be ready for SACD (cap band width)

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They deal with vinyl replay (<5Hz to 50kHz) just fine. What with your obsession with paper specifications?

Just curious.

James

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Effectively Naim pre-amps operate within the range of 20 Hz - 20 kHz with low level distortion (quality audio). Outside this range the distortion level is relatively high. With vinyl replay, well you dont have much control on the distortion to start with....

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Originally posted by Tuan:
Outside this range the distortion level is relatively high.

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Where have you got that?

Emmanuel

All opinions are my own, and reflect those of the organisation i work for, even if not stipulated.

Tuan,
I agree with you, i don't think it is a big challenge (technically) for Naim to design a SACD player, it is only a market mater.

Emmanuel

All opinions are my own, and reflect those of the organisation i work for, even if not stipulated.

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Originally posted by Manu:

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Originally posted by Tuan:
Outside this range the distortion level is relatively high.

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Where have you got that?

Emmanuel

All opinions are my own, and reflect those of the organisation i work for, even if not stipulated.

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Let's wait for Naim to disclose their measurements (distortion vs frequency range) before I fire my torpedoes....

[This message was edited by Tuan on MONDAY 06 October 2003 at 01:44.]

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Originally posted by James:
Tuan,

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Effectively Naim pre-amps operate within the range of 20 Hz - 20 kHz with low level distortion

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Actually, I've seen a very clean 4Hz signal played through my 52, and I have measured practically nil contributory distortion when designing my loudspeakers up to around 35kHz. So where _do_ you get your figures? Best you cough up before your comments are dissed as utter bollocks.

James

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may be it is the time to re-evaluate/validate your measurements.... and also your understanding. Also, chat with people like you is not worth my time. I dont like to start an unnessary "war" on the forum with no positive contribution. Naim may confirm my statement... and why not?

Tuan,

I'm interested, what potential large sinusoidal sources of 4Hz and 35kHz signal could be entering James' test setup to cause such anomolies?

Perhaps they originate from the same signal from the signal generator going into the amplifiers? Particularly if a decent level of output has been achieved at those frequencies.

Andrew

Andrew Randle
Linn Binn Sinner

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Originally posted by Andrew Randle:
Tuan,

I'm interested, what potential large sinusoidal sources of 4Hz and 35kHz signal could be entering James' test setup to cause such anomolies?

Perhaps they originate from the same signal from the signal generator going into the amplifiers? Particularly if a decent level of output has been achieved at those frequencies.

Andrew

Andrew Randle
Linn Binn Sinner

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Andrew

We can continue with this topic by private email if you wish since I do not wish to have James on my conversations. I will not comment on his measurement accuracy, the adequacy of this equipment and the validity of the procedure.... and it will be unfair since he will not be able to defend. However, I beleive that my statement is valid within the 20Hz-20kHz range (and it is good the way Naim pre-amp is designed --people get offended in the wrong way...). I have to ask you that information (if provided) is between us and please not to put on the forum. I would expect Naim Audio to provide some information on this topic. may be we just wait a bit for official response from Naim.

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Effectively Naim pre-amps operate within the range of 20 Hz - 20 kHz with low level distortion (quality audio). Outside this range the distortion level is relatively high.

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Tuan,

I believe the issue here is one of wording.

Naim preamps do effectively bandwidth-limit the signal at the input, but I doubt many, myself included, would call attenuation of a signal outside the audio band 'distortion'.

There is a difference.

It also assumes that you can hear signals above 20k, I very much doubt you can hear to 20k, I know I can't.

You may also like to consider the engineering fact that by effectively limiting the bandwidth of the input signal you can actually reduce distortion, in the context of a Naim system.

James's system may well pass those signals he talks about, but not at the same amplitude as the rest of the audio band. Doesn't mean the signals are distorted though.

Andy.

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Originally posted by Andrew L. Weekes:

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Effectively Naim pre-amps operate within the range of 20 Hz - 20 kHz with low level distortion (quality audio). Outside this range the distortion level is relatively high.

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Tuan,

I believe the issue here is one of wording.

Naim preamps do effectively bandwidth-limit the signal at the input, but I doubt many, myself included, would call _attenuation_ of a signal outside the audio band 'distortion'.

There is a difference.

It also assumes that you can hear signals above 20k, I very much doubt you can hear to 20k, I know I can't.

You may also like to consider the engineering fact that by effectively limiting the bandwidth of the input signal you can actually reduce distortion, in the context of a Naim system.

James's system may well pass those signals he talks about, but not at the same amplitude as the rest of the audio band. Doesn't mean the signals are distorted though.

Andy.

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Fully agree... but I do know the difference between attenuation and distortion.

Tuan,

This is not a verbal attack, just a comment. If you are so anti-Naim, why do you continue to post here? Opinions are opinions but sometimes you go too far.

If I recall correctly you are Canadian. There once was another Canadian who has since been banned -- I hope you're not next. We are a peaceful people afterall

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Originally posted by Arun Mehan:
Tuan,

This is not a verbal attack, just a comment. If you are so anti-Naim, why do you continue to post here? Opinions are opinions but sometimes you go too far.

If I recall correctly you are Canadian. There once was another Canadian who has since been banned -- I hope you're not next. We are a peaceful people afterall

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I am not anti Naim, I use Naim equipment but I am not a sheep and I am not American for sure (not the American Bush type)

Tuan,

Just an observation I have made whilst reading this interesting thread...

Why do you quote a complete post when it is the one above yours, and only to give a one line reply!

Regards
Geoff

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Originally posted by Tuan:
Effectively Naim pre-amps operate within the range of 20 Hz - 20 kHz with low level distortion (quality audio). Outside this range the distortion level is relatively high. With vinyl replay, well you dont have much control on the distortion to start with....

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Really? That's news to us.... Where did this pearl of information come from?

Richard

quoting in a big way

Geoff,

Sometimes another post comes in between unawares - like Richard's in this case. Or your post winds up on a next page. Do people still know who & what you're responding to? (And do they even care?)

I generally try to quote as little as necessary for reasons of space & clutter, but I have often edited my posts to paste in quotes for clarity (to no avail no doubt).

Herman

Herm,

thanks for your reply. My point was about the waste of screen space in an interesting thread - I don't particularly want to read/check long posts twice when they are the same.

But don't quote me on that!

Regards
Geoff

Quote:-


Effectively Naim pre-amps operate within the range of 20 Hz - 20 kHz with low level distortion (quality audio). Outside this range the distortion level is relatively high. With vinyl replay, well you dont have much control on the distortion to start with....
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I would be interested to know what the effecting range of the human ear is?

Surely we must be getting to the point where all this is theoretical.

Whatever happened to just enjoying the music?


Regards


NB

We usually can't hear *individual frequencies" above 20kHz, but be CAN hear their effect on frequencies below 20kHz.

Do a bit of Fourier Analysis and you will see that the wider the frequency response the sharper the transient response.

This is indeed one of the reasons why vinyl sounds better than CD.

Andrew

Andrew Randle
Linn Binn Sinner

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Do a bit of Fourier Analysis and you will see that the wider the frequency response the sharper the transient response

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Whilst that is correct in terms of Fourier analysis, that 'sharper' transient response has, by definition, frequencies above 20k, which I still argue that you cannot hear within the context of a properly designed system.

That their effects can be heard I'd also agree with, but not in the sense you are thinking of, the effects are those of the non-linearities (read: distortion) they introduce to the system passing those frequencies.

Design a system capable of passing the full bandwidth without non-linearity and I'll still claim you will not hear the effect of the >20k signals.

All IMVHO, of course

Andy.

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Originally posted by Richard Dane:

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Originally posted by Tuan:
Effectively Naim pre-amps operate within the range of 20 Hz - 20 kHz with low level distortion (quality audio). Outside this range the distortion level is relatively high. With vinyl replay, well you dont have much control on the distortion to start with....

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Really? That's news to us.... Where did this pearl of information come from?

Richard

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Hi Richard

According to my information, a typical Naim pre-amp (like a NAP82, 52 powered by a supercap) has a distortion level around 0.04 - 0.07 percent inside the frequency range of 20Hz-20kHz. Please confirm if you can (this kind of information is not provided in the Naim web-site and usually given by the other high-end brands. I do agree that if one like the sound of the system, measurements have little values (and I do like Naim system). However, numbers are used to monitor the quality of the product and sometime represent the design goals.

If naim preamps band limited the o/p at 20Khz than maybe this discussion might be worth having, but as far as I'm aware its at approx 65Khz so what on earth are we discussing here.

Tuan,Tuan,Tuan, no more Naim for you ! what is the frequency range of a fart, is a farts distortion level .04 or .07, can you fart 20 to 20 Hz.....there are lots of companys that put great specs on paper, and I'm sure it my reprsent there design goals....but those companys are only farting around....on the M.L. forum they don't talk about how good the gear is they only talk about how many times they fart as they try to lift up the amps....
A silly post this is......

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Originally posted by Tuan:
They play the waiting game (the format war between DVD-A and SACD

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Tuan,

you are not paying attention, Naim are not waiting.

They are releasing a DVD & DVD-A player, which was demonstrated at the What HiFi show recently (and a dummy player was on show at the Heathrow show which this thread is discussing).

See the bottom item in this stack.

cheers, Martin



E-mail:- MartinPayne at Dial.Pipex.com

Martin.

We are talking about hifi grade player here (not just for playing movie). For playing DVD movie I stick with Sony thank you.

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Originally posted by hi fi fo fum:
Tuan,Tuan,Tuan, no more Naim for you ! what is the frequency range of a fart, is a farts distortion level .04 or .07, can you fart 20 to 20 Hz.....there are lots of companys that put great specs on paper, and I'm sure it my reprsent there design goals....but those companys are only farting around....on the M.L. forum they don't talk about how good the gear is they only talk about how many times they fart as they try to lift up the amps....
A silly post this is......

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Steve (laugh). This is what is forum is for.... Come today with us for a good time please.