Nait 5 + subwoofer
Posted by: Hans 67 on 08 September 2003
Hello all,
I have a Nait 5 and a pair of LS3/5a speakers. I like the sound very much. But, no bass! I have thought about buying different speakers, but that will be expensive if I want the very good midrange of the LS3/5a's with bass.
Now I am thinking about a subwoofer. I think the only correct way to connect a subwoofer to a Naim system is to use a ?Cap. Then you connect the subwoofer to the 2nd output of the ?Cap just as if it is a 2nd poweramp. And the signal earth of the subwoofer may not be connected to mains earth. Am I correct?
Is there another way to connect a subwoofer to a Nait 5 without messing up the systems earthing?
Greetings, Hans
I have a Nait 5 and a pair of LS3/5a speakers. I like the sound very much. But, no bass! I have thought about buying different speakers, but that will be expensive if I want the very good midrange of the LS3/5a's with bass.
Now I am thinking about a subwoofer. I think the only correct way to connect a subwoofer to a Naim system is to use a ?Cap. Then you connect the subwoofer to the 2nd output of the ?Cap just as if it is a 2nd poweramp. And the signal earth of the subwoofer may not be connected to mains earth. Am I correct?
Is there another way to connect a subwoofer to a Nait 5 without messing up the systems earthing?
Greetings, Hans
Posted on: 08 September 2003 by Manu
Best way is to use a passive sub with a Naim amp. If you plug any long interconnect to a *cap, you will load the line from preamp to amp (even via *cap), resulting in lower quality on your LS3/5.
No other way, IMO, if you use 1 or 2 m interconnect, you sub will be too close to the system creating vibrations, if longer interconnect, you load the preamp output, so...
Emmanuel
All opinions are my own, and reflect those of the organisation i work for, even if not stipulated.
No other way, IMO, if you use 1 or 2 m interconnect, you sub will be too close to the system creating vibrations, if longer interconnect, you load the preamp output, so...
Emmanuel
All opinions are my own, and reflect those of the organisation i work for, even if not stipulated.
Posted on: 08 September 2003 by Geoff P
I have a REL subwoofer and went through the same issues.
REL subs have pretty good setup flexibility in the form of speaker level inputs as well as line level and genuinely selectable upper roll off frequency.
I tried connecting the line level input via my HiCap with less than happy results then moved onto the speaker level input which is via a Neutrik connector with 2 positive and 1 negative wire. The instructions say wire this at the speaker output terminals on the back of your amp. This does NOT work !!!
What does work (at least for the 150 which is 5 series) is to wire the connections at the speakers themselves. You basically run the wires (It does'nt have to be anything exotic) from the positive connectors on the backs of the two speakers and one of the negative terminals (whichever is nearest)
This is working fine for me and has now been running for 6 months with no problems at all.
Incidentally there was a thread òn this some time ago which included e-mail from Richard Lord of REL. If you do a search on sub-woofers you may find it.
One other comment all sub woofers are not equal!!
I had a KEF with a pair of their egg speakers for the rear channels in my home theater at one time. It was useless, it produced "one note" bass (all thump).
The REL range on the other hand claims to be built around delivering "musical" bass. I have the inexpensive "quake" (terrible name) but feel it IS musical and am very happy with the results.
So be a bit carefull if you buy.
regards
GEOFFP
REL subs have pretty good setup flexibility in the form of speaker level inputs as well as line level and genuinely selectable upper roll off frequency.
I tried connecting the line level input via my HiCap with less than happy results then moved onto the speaker level input which is via a Neutrik connector with 2 positive and 1 negative wire. The instructions say wire this at the speaker output terminals on the back of your amp. This does NOT work !!!
What does work (at least for the 150 which is 5 series) is to wire the connections at the speakers themselves. You basically run the wires (It does'nt have to be anything exotic) from the positive connectors on the backs of the two speakers and one of the negative terminals (whichever is nearest)
This is working fine for me and has now been running for 6 months with no problems at all.
Incidentally there was a thread òn this some time ago which included e-mail from Richard Lord of REL. If you do a search on sub-woofers you may find it.
One other comment all sub woofers are not equal!!
I had a KEF with a pair of their egg speakers for the rear channels in my home theater at one time. It was useless, it produced "one note" bass (all thump).
The REL range on the other hand claims to be built around delivering "musical" bass. I have the inexpensive "quake" (terrible name) but feel it IS musical and am very happy with the results.
So be a bit carefull if you buy.
regards
GEOFFP
Posted on: 08 September 2003 by trickytree
Posted on: 08 September 2003 by Mr_Sukebe
Be aware that I have had my REL Q100 for nearly a year now, and have never managed to really get it to integrate well with music. I feel that it upsets the "cohesiveness" of my existing speakers, almost regardless of how I've used it. It's now been relegated for only AV use.
Posted on: 08 September 2003 by J.N.
I have my REL Q400 connected to the speaker outputs of my NAP 250 (as recommended by REL) and it works just fine.
I find that this 'sealed box' sub integrates very well with my SBL's if it's used with subtlety.
Switching off the sub diminishes the soundstage in three dimensions and coarsens the mid/top. And that's on something like acoustic guitar, with no obvious sub-bass content.
There are clearly benefits in reproducing all music down to the lowest frequencies that were recorded.
FWIW; I've also had ported REL subs and couldn't get them to work anywhere near as well, in my admittedly 'difficult' room.
I generally can't get on with ported speakers; which is why I love my SBL's.
They're even better with the extra octaves of grunt.
I find that this 'sealed box' sub integrates very well with my SBL's if it's used with subtlety.
Switching off the sub diminishes the soundstage in three dimensions and coarsens the mid/top. And that's on something like acoustic guitar, with no obvious sub-bass content.
There are clearly benefits in reproducing all music down to the lowest frequencies that were recorded.
FWIW; I've also had ported REL subs and couldn't get them to work anywhere near as well, in my admittedly 'difficult' room.
I generally can't get on with ported speakers; which is why I love my SBL's.
They're even better with the extra octaves of grunt.
Posted on: 08 September 2003 by Manu
Among active REL users:
Have you tried using a separate cheap used amp connected to the speaker input of your active sub? I'm quite reluctant to add a parallel set of speaker wires from main amp even if they don't carry any current.
Emmanuel
All opinions are my own, and reflect those of the organisation i work for, even if not stipulated.
Have you tried using a separate cheap used amp connected to the speaker input of your active sub? I'm quite reluctant to add a parallel set of speaker wires from main amp even if they don't carry any current.
Emmanuel
All opinions are my own, and reflect those of the organisation i work for, even if not stipulated.
Posted on: 09 September 2003 by Geoff P
quote:
Be aware that I have had my REL Q100 for nearly a year now, and have never managed to really get it to integrate well with music. I feel that it upsets the "cohesiveness" of my existing speakers, almost regardless of how I've used it. It's now been relegated for only AV use.
quote:
Switching off the sub diminishes the soundstage in three dimensions and coarsens the mid/top. And that's on something like acoustic guitar, with no obvious sub-bass content.
Interestingly totally different experiences for Mr sukebe & JN.
Mr sukebe I have bad news for you I have the same experience as JN and would not be without my sub now.
I am sure you tried all the patient positioning test and carefull tuning adjustments detailed by REL so maybe it is just not possible to get a satisfactory setup with your speakers in your room. Perhaps I have struck lucky.
quote:
Among active REL users:
Have you tried using a separate cheap used amp connected to the speaker input of your active sub? I'm quite reluctant to add a parallel set of speaker wires from main amp even if they don't carry any current.
Manu
I tried connecting the parallel second set of sub wires at the main amp speaker outputs (Not wired internally just spliced into the NACA5 amp connection plugs as "tails" run to the sub's speaker level input as recommended by REL).
It seemed to work during the listening test for a few minutes then I heard some quiet but variable intermittent "crackle" coming across with the music. I stopped instantly and removed the "tails". The distortion disappeared on the same music confirming the amp was NOT happy with the extra load.
I sought advice from REL, who were very helpfull whilst admitting they had little experience of connecting to NAIM amps. Based on their recommendation I then connected the sub "tails" at the speaker ends of the NACA5.
My speakers (Totem Mani 2's which I know your opinion of, but which work great for me in my small room) being biwireable allowed me to use the spare set of terminals which I had "bridged across" to the single wired NACA5.
Taking these tails to the speaker level input on the REL worked fine and that's how it's stayed. The REL uses it own amp as wired internally to add some "drive" to the speaker level signal BUT very little is needed and I get the benefits JN described with the REL roll off frequency set to approxm. 35HZ.
My amp is a 150. Interestingly JN seems to be using the amp's speaker outputs on his 250 without suffering the distortion problem I had using that connection technique, so this suggests a borderline condition which varies from amp to amp probably as a function of transient current handling capability.
Interestingly I use the Line level input on the REL for AV with the lowest output setting on the A/V kit of -10dB for the .1 channel, and a very small amount of amplification at the REL because I have to cope with the combined input from the front speakers via the high level inputs and the AV .1 steering via the low level at the same time. It sounds "hairy" and took some tweaking but seems to be working OK for Home Cinema. Of course it is not an issue for stereo when the A/V kit is not switched on at all.
Hope this helps rather than confuses.
GEOFFP
Posted on: 09 September 2003 by Manu
Interresting, I vote for your setup: plugging the sub "tail" at the speaker second set of posts.
Emmanuel
All opinions are my own, and reflect those of the organisation i work for, even if not stipulated.
Emmanuel
All opinions are my own, and reflect those of the organisation i work for, even if not stipulated.
Posted on: 05 October 2003 by Martin C
Hi guys,
Dig up some old threads for the sub integrate the naim system. There are mixed feeling.
First is the connection, the REL and naim methods, I have a StrataIII, will connect the high level input. Will try to put the Neutrik speakon interconnect (red/black/yellow ends) to
wire in the naim spekaer plugs on the speaker terminals (Amp side), Some people suggested should be the speaker end? so the same connection on the speaker ends (for both speaker)?
I am also concerning about the switch on and off order. Since REL is active, should I switch it on first before the normal XPS/NAPSC/ Supercap/250? And switch it off at the end after
reversed order? Please kindly clarify. Or actually it's not an issue and I can keep the sub on all the time or switch on and off anytime (my naim system is on 24/7 like other naimees.
cheers
Martin
Dig up some old threads for the sub integrate the naim system. There are mixed feeling.
First is the connection, the REL and naim methods, I have a StrataIII, will connect the high level input. Will try to put the Neutrik speakon interconnect (red/black/yellow ends) to
wire in the naim spekaer plugs on the speaker terminals (Amp side), Some people suggested should be the speaker end? so the same connection on the speaker ends (for both speaker)?
I am also concerning about the switch on and off order. Since REL is active, should I switch it on first before the normal XPS/NAPSC/ Supercap/250? And switch it off at the end after
reversed order? Please kindly clarify. Or actually it's not an issue and I can keep the sub on all the time or switch on and off anytime (my naim system is on 24/7 like other naimees.
cheers
Martin
Posted on: 05 October 2003 by Mr_Sukebe
As a quick update ref my issues of "cohesiveness".
I recently played a little more with my sub.
One of the settings on my sub was "depth" or "slam". I got the impressions from reading around that I should be using it in "depth" mode.
What I found was the following:
- Using it in depth mode really seemed to slow down the response of the sub, screwing up the timing
- Using the sub in "slam" mode helped enourmously. I also added a concrete slab under the sub, which improved things even more
- Along the way, I tried concrete slabs under my main stereo speakers, which seemed to speed them up. Unfortunately, once speeded up, the sub couldn't keep up.
So as of now, I'm using my sub in "slam" mode whilst on a slab, with my speakers just sat on the floor, sounds awesome.
I recently played a little more with my sub.
One of the settings on my sub was "depth" or "slam". I got the impressions from reading around that I should be using it in "depth" mode.
What I found was the following:
- Using it in depth mode really seemed to slow down the response of the sub, screwing up the timing
- Using the sub in "slam" mode helped enourmously. I also added a concrete slab under the sub, which improved things even more
- Along the way, I tried concrete slabs under my main stereo speakers, which seemed to speed them up. Unfortunately, once speeded up, the sub couldn't keep up.
So as of now, I'm using my sub in "slam" mode whilst on a slab, with my speakers just sat on the floor, sounds awesome.
Posted on: 06 October 2003 by Brucie
My 2p's worth
I've been using a Q100 for 3 years now with great effect. It is plugged into the back of my 180 and complements my little Shahinian Super Elf's quite nicely (and they need it being so little).
It took a while to tune it but in a large, tile floored room the bass is lacking otherwise. I think it does add depth and a little warmth. Have not noticed it being slow.
b
I've been using a Q100 for 3 years now with great effect. It is plugged into the back of my 180 and complements my little Shahinian Super Elf's quite nicely (and they need it being so little).
It took a while to tune it but in a large, tile floored room the bass is lacking otherwise. I think it does add depth and a little warmth. Have not noticed it being slow.
b
Posted on: 06 October 2003 by Geoff P
quote:
First is the connection, the REL and naim methods, I have a StrataIII, will connect the high level input. Will try to put the Neutrik speakon interconnect (red/black/yellow ends) to
wire in the naim spekaer plugs on the speaker terminals (Amp side), Some people suggested should be the speaker end? so the same connection on the speaker ends (for both speaker)?
Martin
As said earlier on this thread I use the "speakon" connector at the speaker ends NOT the output sockets on the back of my amp (a 150).
Wiring is as recommended by REL, 3 wires, one to each of the speaker positive terminals and the third wire to one of the speaker negatives (the one nearest the sub for simplicity).
I have quite a long run to my sub because I find it better to keep it well away from the main speakers so I can tune it easily (hearing and seperating the bass coming from the sub vs the bass from the main speakers when my ear is against the sub).
quote:
I am also concerning about the switch on and off order. Since REL is active, should I switch it on first before the normal XPS/NAPSC/ Supercap/250? And switch it off at the end after
reversed order? Please kindly clarify. Or actually it's not an issue and I can keep the sub on all the time or switch on and off anytime (my naim system is on 24/7 like other naimees.
I typically have it all on 24/7 but a few times I have temporarily switched the sub off by whilst everything else is running, to hear the bass difference more easily (particularly for setting up the AV input aswell).
This causes no distress at all in the Naim gear.
Switching off the Naim gear for system relocation and reconnection BEFORE the sub caused the sub to "hum",which prompted me to unplug the speakon connector from the sub to fix that.
Again in reverse it is probably better to switch the NAIM gear on with the "speakon" disconnected from the sub then plug it in after powering up the sub. though this is not a "damage" issue just a cosmetic thing to avoid a few moments of hum.
quote:
What I found was the following:
- Using it in depth mode really seemed to slow down the response of the sub, screwing up the timing
- Using the sub in "slam" mode helped enourmously. I also added a concrete slab under the sub, which improved things even more
Mr Sukebe
Interesting how different the experience is for each setup.
I found that "depth" is far better than "slam" in my system. According to the REL instructions "slam" gives a bass effect which is overemphasised for a disco like sound. I have a relatively small room with a stone tiled floor and find I get a good result as mentioned with the "roll off" frequency set to 35Hz on "depth".
regards
GEOFFP
Posted on: 06 October 2003 by willem
Hans,
What source are you using? Vinyl or CD? LS35A's brilliant as they are don't seem to like CD much.
Instead of buying a subwoofer you could invest in a vinyl front end and get all the bass you need.
Despite my humble Nait 3 I've never fellt the need to get a subwoofer. It is as if the bass comes straight out of the Armageddon.
Think again, have fun!
Willem
What source are you using? Vinyl or CD? LS35A's brilliant as they are don't seem to like CD much.
Instead of buying a subwoofer you could invest in a vinyl front end and get all the bass you need.
Despite my humble Nait 3 I've never fellt the need to get a subwoofer. It is as if the bass comes straight out of the Armageddon.
Think again, have fun!
Willem
Posted on: 10 October 2003 by Hans 67
Hello all,
nice to see my topic back.
Willem,
you are totally right. I have played last month with my old record player. The bass is better than with CD. But I have a lot of trouble finding LP's of my taste. Thus my old record player is disconnected again. I need a better CD-player.
And now I have new speakers, Linn Nexus. These are not so very well respected in flat earth land, but I like them. Now I have enough bass and I do not need a subwoofer anymore. Thanks to all for the responses.
Greetings, Hans
nice to see my topic back.
Willem,
you are totally right. I have played last month with my old record player. The bass is better than with CD. But I have a lot of trouble finding LP's of my taste. Thus my old record player is disconnected again. I need a better CD-player.
And now I have new speakers, Linn Nexus. These are not so very well respected in flat earth land, but I like them. Now I have enough bass and I do not need a subwoofer anymore. Thanks to all for the responses.
Greetings, Hans