How far apart must Naim boxes be?
Posted by: Laurie Saunders on 16 February 2004
Some playing around with the (powered) boxes in my system (2x135s, Scap, Hicap, NAPST) over the weekend gave some surprising and encouraging results when I (temporarily) increased their seperation. ....I detected improvements(especially in timing) for up to 5 or 6 inches between the cases......I`m guessing that many racks(the Fraim?) don`t allow for this much....
I now have another problem.......the amount of valuable real estate my kit will take up in my listening room if I spread the boxes out
Are there any guidlines on the closest that boxes may be located to avoid what I assume is electromagnetic interaction between transformers in the varuious boxes?
Laurie S
I now have another problem.......the amount of valuable real estate my kit will take up in my listening room if I spread the boxes out
Are there any guidlines on the closest that boxes may be located to avoid what I assume is electromagnetic interaction between transformers in the varuious boxes?
Laurie S
Posted on: 16 February 2004 by greeny
I would have assumed, Given the argument that XPS should be as far away from CDS as Burndy will allow, that gains could be had by moving everything as far away from each other as possible.
Obviously in the case of 135/ SUpercaps for example the improvement will not be as large as moving Preamps/CD player away, but if you've already done this (like in your case) then separating boxes whould be expected to bring a small improvement.
Obviously in the case of 135/ SUpercaps for example the improvement will not be as large as moving Preamps/CD player away, but if you've already done this (like in your case) then separating boxes whould be expected to bring a small improvement.
Posted on: 16 February 2004 by London Lad
Rubbish pic of my separation plan
Graham.
Not a lad any longer and not from London!
Graham.
Not a lad any longer and not from London!
Posted on: 16 February 2004 by Laurie Saunders
James
hard to tell from the picture.....how far apart are your 135s?
have tou experimented with increased seperation.
The biggest surprise with mine was the Scap...it was on a shelf givig it about 3 inches clearance from the Napst below
Increasing this by2 inches brought gains, but increasing it by 3 inches brought even more
I personally prefer wall shelves to floor stands...(it makes cleaning the carpet easier and my house has a suspended wooden floor, so I`m guessing it sounds better too)...I would be open to convincing that a floor standing rack (fraim or mana etc) would sound better
Trouble is, my system has grown since I put the first shelves up, now my racking is such a mess that I`m faced with complete removal, and starting again from scratch..not a job I relish
If I include record player, with its PSU, CD player, TV tuner etc etc I have need of at least 12 shelves!(gulp)
Laurie S
hard to tell from the picture.....how far apart are your 135s?
have tou experimented with increased seperation.
The biggest surprise with mine was the Scap...it was on a shelf givig it about 3 inches clearance from the Napst below
Increasing this by2 inches brought gains, but increasing it by 3 inches brought even more
I personally prefer wall shelves to floor stands...(it makes cleaning the carpet easier and my house has a suspended wooden floor, so I`m guessing it sounds better too)...I would be open to convincing that a floor standing rack (fraim or mana etc) would sound better
Trouble is, my system has grown since I put the first shelves up, now my racking is such a mess that I`m faced with complete removal, and starting again from scratch..not a job I relish
If I include record player, with its PSU, CD player, TV tuner etc etc I have need of at least 12 shelves!(gulp)
Laurie S
Posted on: 16 February 2004 by Anders
I have found that separating pre and CD-head from each other is as big improvement as separating power-supplies from sources.
I use double-width Fraim for best separation vertically:
Stack 1 Stack2
552 CDS2
500 500PS
552PS XPS
Anders
I use double-width Fraim for best separation vertically:
Stack 1 Stack2
552 CDS2
500 500PS
552PS XPS
Anders
Posted on: 16 February 2004 by Laurie Saunders
I accept the notion of seperating the 52 from its psu, etc....that is relatively easy...what is more difficult is the spacng between scap, &135s and NAPST
This would seem to require a wide shelf spacing
PS I have my tuner (NAT01) head unit v close to my 52......would that likely be a problem?
laurie S
This would seem to require a wide shelf spacing
PS I have my tuner (NAT01) head unit v close to my 52......would that likely be a problem?
laurie S
Posted on: 17 February 2004 by TommyT
Laurie,
According to the Naim user manuals they recommend that equipment boxes are sited as far apart as possible, with 12 inches being the recommended minimum (at least on olive kit anyway).
A couple of weekends ago I bought some additional columns for my Quadraspire Q4 rack such that I now have a 15 inch gap between the top of my XPS and bottom of CDSII. Previously the gap had been 10 inches. This definitely brought about further improvement in the sound: greater focus, less grain, more "analogue" sounding. I have found improvements have also been achieved by increasing the distance between power supplies.
Regards,
Tom
According to the Naim user manuals they recommend that equipment boxes are sited as far apart as possible, with 12 inches being the recommended minimum (at least on olive kit anyway).
A couple of weekends ago I bought some additional columns for my Quadraspire Q4 rack such that I now have a 15 inch gap between the top of my XPS and bottom of CDSII. Previously the gap had been 10 inches. This definitely brought about further improvement in the sound: greater focus, less grain, more "analogue" sounding. I have found improvements have also been achieved by increasing the distance between power supplies.
Regards,
Tom
Posted on: 17 February 2004 by Laurie Saunders
Tom.....
as I suspected, the distances are larger than would normally be tha case with a standard rack/stand
Given the number of boxes I have, as I said above, the implications are daunting- my hi-fi will occupy a huge amount of my valuable listening room space
Laurie S
as I suspected, the distances are larger than would normally be tha case with a standard rack/stand
Given the number of boxes I have, as I said above, the implications are daunting- my hi-fi will occupy a huge amount of my valuable listening room space
Laurie S
Posted on: 17 February 2004 by TommyT
Laurie,
Point taken about the amount of space taken up. I have my rack sitting in an alcove in the hall space adjacent to the listening room. So I get lots of space and I get the kit out of the listening room (a great upgrade in itself). I then have the speaker cables fed through an internal wall into the listening room.
Any options for you along this line?
Tom
Point taken about the amount of space taken up. I have my rack sitting in an alcove in the hall space adjacent to the listening room. So I get lots of space and I get the kit out of the listening room (a great upgrade in itself). I then have the speaker cables fed through an internal wall into the listening room.
Any options for you along this line?
Tom
Posted on: 17 February 2004 by Naheed
After much shuffling this is the best solution i found
naheed. . .
naheed. . .
Posted on: 17 February 2004 by TommyT
Naheed,
Care to "expand" on your solution?
Tom
Care to "expand" on your solution?
Tom
Posted on: 17 February 2004 by hifi-dog
oh dear - i have 112/150/fc2 and the only option i have is to stack the 150 and the flatcap with 6inches to the pre - is there anything i can put between the 150/fc2 to isolate them electrically/magnetically?
Posted on: 17 February 2004 by Naheed
Sorry guys my picture is a tad too big, will repost once i figure out how to reduce the size, but keep the quality
naheed. . .
naheed. . .
Posted on: 17 February 2004 by Laurie Saunders
quote:
is there anything i can put between the 150/fc2 to isolate them electrically/magnetically?
I`m guessing that a sheet of mu-metal would do the trick.......rather an expensive and inelegant solution though...
As I mentioned above, I really achieved substantial gains by seperating the MAINS POWERED boxes from each other...gains were noticeable up to a seperation of 5-6 inches.....this is not the same as keeping, say a CDP or preamp well away from its psu...which can be achieved fairly easily by rearranging the order of stacking on shelves
Laurie S
Laurie S
Posted on: 17 February 2004 by Naheed
i hope
Left Rack: cds2/snaxo/52
Right Rack: xps/supercap/supercap/250/250
naheed. . .
[This message was edited by Naheed on TUESDAY 17 February 2004 at 17:48.]
Left Rack: cds2/snaxo/52
Right Rack: xps/supercap/supercap/250/250
naheed. . .
[This message was edited by Naheed on TUESDAY 17 February 2004 at 17:48.]
Posted on: 17 February 2004 by TommyT
Laurie,
Yes, you also get gains from increasing the gap between power supplies. I have experienced the difference between 5.5 inch gap and 11 inch gap on three shelves containing XPS, Hi-Cap and 250. The bigger the gap, the better it gets. All this on a single stack.
Tom
Yes, you also get gains from increasing the gap between power supplies. I have experienced the difference between 5.5 inch gap and 11 inch gap on three shelves containing XPS, Hi-Cap and 250. The bigger the gap, the better it gets. All this on a single stack.
Tom
Posted on: 17 February 2004 by Naheed
Your better of shifting the cd/pre/snaxo to your three tier, and spacing the racks further apart, makes cable dressing a doddle, gives a significant improvement in tune terms.
Laurie - after much shuffling the best approach is seperate racks for powered and non-powered, another step from their is to seperate the cds2 further from any snaxo/pre, i find the cds2 emits something disagreeable
naheed. . .
Laurie - after much shuffling the best approach is seperate racks for powered and non-powered, another step from their is to seperate the cds2 further from any snaxo/pre, i find the cds2 emits something disagreeable
naheed. . .
Posted on: 17 February 2004 by Laurie Saunders
Tom
Totally agree...in fact any mains powered box with a transformer needs at lest 6 inches around it
London Lad
I accept, and agree with this.......however the problem is the amount of space this would require....
Laurie S
quote:
Laurie,
Yes, you also get gains from increasing the gap between power supplies
Totally agree...in fact any mains powered box with a transformer needs at lest 6 inches around it
London Lad
quote:
Your better of shifting the cd/pre/snaxo to your three tier, and spacing the racks further apart, makes cable dressing a doddle, gives a significant improvement in tune terms.
I accept, and agree with this.......however the problem is the amount of space this would require....
Laurie S
Posted on: 17 February 2004 by London Lad
Naheed
Putting the cdp / pre / snaxo on the 3 level rack would not enable me to separate the racks any more, they are at burndy length now!
I wanted to keep the psus away from the cdp / pre / snaxo AND the amps as far as I could.
I have the psus on the right as the transformers in the SCs and XPS are on the right and it keeps them as far as possible from the other rack etc.
Graham.
Not a lad any longer and not from London!
Putting the cdp / pre / snaxo on the 3 level rack would not enable me to separate the racks any more, they are at burndy length now!
I wanted to keep the psus away from the cdp / pre / snaxo AND the amps as far as I could.
I have the psus on the right as the transformers in the SCs and XPS are on the right and it keeps them as far as possible from the other rack etc.
Graham.
Not a lad any longer and not from London!
Posted on: 17 February 2004 by CW
Hello My Good Man,
They need to be as far apart as you can get them. Can you rent any space from your neighbour. A mains upgrade is another good upgrade. You must not use extension leads with neon indicators in them.
Good Luck sir,
Clyde W
They need to be as far apart as you can get them. Can you rent any space from your neighbour. A mains upgrade is another good upgrade. You must not use extension leads with neon indicators in them.
Good Luck sir,
Clyde W
Posted on: 18 February 2004 by Dev B
I am not being funny but if you use a ferrous rack this has more of an effect than putting a supercap under a preamp for example.
Posted on: 18 February 2004 by Naheed
Graham
I'm talking separation in terms of rack to rack, what I found is distancing vertically bring small improvements (something to do with the transformer field - you need to search some old threads) compared to horizontal positioning, which brings a big improvement.
Dev
your cracking me up
Yeah but the effect for me is an improvement, way more than a F-Laim.
naheed. . .
I'm talking separation in terms of rack to rack, what I found is distancing vertically bring small improvements (something to do with the transformer field - you need to search some old threads) compared to horizontal positioning, which brings a big improvement.
Dev
your cracking me up
Yeah but the effect for me is an improvement, way more than a F-Laim.
naheed. . .
Posted on: 18 February 2004 by Laurie Saunders
quote:
I am not being funny but if you use a ferrous rack this has more of an effect than putting a supercap under a preamp for example.
I`m not sure about MORE effect, though the point you are making has not escaped me....I have considered constructing some wooden framed shelves...cheaper (I could make them myself)and they would probably look nicer too
Laurie S
Posted on: 18 February 2004 by Steve Toy
Brain: CD players, preamplifiers.
Brawn: Power amps, power supplies including NAPSC and Hi-cap.
London Lad,
Move that taller shelf up to create a spacer between your preamp or tuner and whatever then sits beneath it, and move that Hi-cap down so that it is beneath the pre and tuner.
Regards,
Steve.
Brawn: Power amps, power supplies including NAPSC and Hi-cap.
London Lad,
Move that taller shelf up to create a spacer between your preamp or tuner and whatever then sits beneath it, and move that Hi-cap down so that it is beneath the pre and tuner.
Regards,
Steve.
Posted on: 18 February 2004 by London Lad
Steve T
Its not a hicap its a snaxo. The high shelf keeps the cdp, pre, snaxo and tuner away from the 250s. The other rack is all PSUs (XPS, SC, SC)
Graham.
Not a lad any longer and not from London!
Its not a hicap its a snaxo. The high shelf keeps the cdp, pre, snaxo and tuner away from the 250s. The other rack is all PSUs (XPS, SC, SC)
Graham.
Not a lad any longer and not from London!
Posted on: 18 February 2004 by Steve Toy
Fair enough. A SNAXO would be classed as a brain component. Your system should sound like the dog's danglies.
Regards,
Steve.
Regards,
Steve.