Sunday evening TV

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Originally posted by Tim Jones:
The musical highlight of the evening has been the South Bank Show on Herbie Hancock. What an astonishing musician he is. I knew about the Miles recordings, 'Headhunters' and 'Rockit' but some of the things in between (was it the Mwaishi Orchestra?) sounded incredible. After nigh on 50 years of being a keyboard genius and more to boot, Mr Hancock could be fogiven for being a bit up himself. Not a bit of it.

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Yeah, Herbie is one of the bona fide natural born geniuses.

The period you're wondering about is actually his Mwandishi band (you may have confused the "Orchestra" moniker with John McLaughlin's Mahavishnu Orchestra). It precedes both Headhunters and Rockit. With this band [Buster Williams - bass, Billy Hart -drums, Bennie Maupin - sax and bass clarinet, Eddie Henderson - trumpet, and Patrick Gleeson - "vintage" synthesizers (well, they weren't vintage then; you know, the kind with no keyboard, just patch cords and knobs)] he recorded three great records: Mwandishi, Crossings, and Sextant.

This is the "other" great strain of "free jazz" in the 60s-70s (as opposed to the strain that arose from John Coltrane, Albert Ayler, Ornette Coleman, Archie Shepp, et al.). This is the strain that developed from Miles Davis' excursions such as In A Silent Way, Bitches Brew, Live Evil, etc. and paralleled work by early Weather Report. Wonderful, incredible stuff, indeed.

For what it's worth (probably not much), I don't have an opinion about Moby having not heard enough to form one. But somehow I suspect that in this day and age, Moby is not really the problem.

Tim

Agree with you 100% on Hancock - in fact, I'm going to listen to "Headhuters", "Maiden Voyage" and Miles' "ESP" this very evening. Excellent programme!

Hancock's playing with vibraphonist Bobby Hutcherson at the Barbican this week..

Also agree with you about Moby. Why? Am I missing something? New Order are just as much to blame for the NDF fiasco though. They have become so casual about their heritage that Bernard has taken to doing "whoops" in stuff like LWTUA. Still, the Peter Saville Show Soundtrack was pretty good though.

Kevin

Can you HH experts plese tell me the name of 1 of his albums post Hhunters pre Sunlight 76-78ish which had some amazing Wah Wah Watson licks on it?

Kit -

One of the things I noticed about both the acoustic quartet and the electric band on stage was how similar they sounded, and in fact how similar they sounded to many other modern jazz outfits - especially in terms of bass players and drummers.

The bassists (including the acoustic ones) tend to sound very much like updated versions of Jaco. I suspect they are all taught to hold down a groove and just ornament it now and then with little warbles and flourishes. Similarly the drummers all seem to have the same high-tuned snare and the same vocabulary of fills and ornamentations.

Perhaps the music colleges in the States are churning out machine-like session players. Perhaps I'm wrong - hope so.

Tim

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Originally posted by Kit:
What should I grab if I want a couple of doses of acoustic Herbie?

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You can't go wrong with:

Maiden Voyage
Empyrean Isles
Speak Like A Child
Takin' Off

If you can swing it, go for The Complete Blue Note 60s Sessions boxed set. It will give you a lifetime of listening pleasure.

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Originally posted by Tim Jones:
Kit -

One of the things I noticed about both the acoustic quartet and the electric band on stage was how similar they sounded, and in fact how similar they sounded to many other modern jazz outfits - especially in terms of bass players and drummers.

The bassists (including the acoustic ones) tend to sound very much like updated versions of Jaco. I suspect they are all taught to hold down a groove and just ornament it now and then with little warbles and flourishes. Similarly the drummers all seem to have the same high-tuned snare and the same vocabulary of fills and ornamentations.

Perhaps the music colleges in the States are churning out machine-like session players. Perhaps I'm wrong - hope so.

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Tim, can you specify some of the players you're referring to? And what exactly does a "machine-like session player" sound like?

As far as bass players who are not Jaco updates, there are plenty. Just to name a very few:

Steve Rodby
Marc Johnson
Christian McBride
Larry Grenadier
Marcus Miller

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Originally posted by j8hn:
Can you HH experts plese tell me the name of 1 of his albums post Hhunters pre Sunlight 76-78ish which had some amazing Wah Wah Watson licks on it?

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Man-Child (1975)

or

Secrets (1976)


Also, even though Watson is not on it, Thrust (1974), the follow up to Headhunters (1973), is some of Herbie's strongest work ever. Particularly, the astonishingly complex funk-jazz masterpiece Actual Proof is, well, actual proof of his genius.

Tim,

Do you actually like Moby's style of music? i.e electronic/dance/rock/chill fusion because if you don't it seems a bit pointless commenting.

In fact if I was to comment on Herbie Hancock I'd say complete rubbish, as is Miles Davis. Kind of Blue, noodley, meandering tune-free twaddle. But I don't like Jazz so my opinion is of little worth.

I think of the type of stuff that Mody does he is pretty good at it and blends the Dance beats, with excellent melodies and interesting arrangements

Greeny -

Yes I do like dance/hiphop/techno and have lots of it, especially Aphex Twin (the man is a genius), Leftfield, Sugar Hill Records, Red Snapper, etc. In fact it sits next to the way out, meandering noodly items in my collection. Unfortunately I don't like Moby because he's, well, crap.

There used to be a theory around the time of the great metal/rap crossover in the late eighties that either musicians were just running out of ideas within their own genres so decided to cross over into others, or that it made it easier to shift units if you could appeal to more than one audience. In Moby's case I suggest he exploiting both things to the hilt.

The worst specific thing about Moby at Glastonbury, apart from his general being-a-wanker and trying lamely to be a comedian between 'songs', was that he constantly interrupted the very talented DJ behind him by getting out his big black axe and treating us to some masturbatory power chords.

PS What exactly is 'chill fusion'?

Fred -

I did say I hoped I was wrong. I used to be a session bass player and played quite a few of what greeny would describe as noodly meandering gigs. I and most of the bass players around me at the time played in pretty much the same way - with the back pick up on a Fender Jazz or similar bass, doing little sixteenth note runs here and there on top of walking grooves. And many of the players you see backing people like Herbie are just like we were. The weird thing is the way the acoustic players are taking on the same style.

However, it's been a long time since I played seriously or took any serous notice of how jazz bass playing was going - so you may have a point.

Tim

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Yes I do like dance/hiphop/techno and have lots of it, especially Aphex Twin (the man is a genius), Leftfield, Sugar Hill Records, Red Snapper, etc. In fact it sits next to the way out, meandering noodly items in my collection. Unfortunately I don't like Moby because he's, well, crap.

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Fair enough you just don't like the guy, he's probably not left field enough for you. I agree that Moby might specifically be trying to appeal to more than one audience, but he's clearly suceeding, with Play and 18 being very successful both comercially and (IMO) in their ability to blend these styles.

Interestingly if you listened to radio 1 on Monday there must have been at least a dozen people (out of maybe 20 read out) who thought Moby the best act of the weekend!

greeny -

Atomic Kitten, Steps et al shift loads of units, straddle musical genres, and are well liked by many Radio 1 listeners. Unfortunately those factors are neither necessary nor sufficient for me to like them.

But that is clearly no reason why anyone else should not sample their musical qualities

Tim

Thanx Fred.

Now you've named them for me I still can't remember the exact one. Taped it off a friend in the 70s, it was a yellow coloured cassette which is what sticks in my mind - and that's no use to me at all ;-)

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Originally posted by j8hn:
Thanx Fred.

Now you've named them for me I still can't remember the exact one. Taped it off a friend in the 70s, it was a yellow coloured cassette which is what sticks in my mind - and that's no use to me at all ;-)

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Well, Man-Child's cover has more yellow on it than that of Secrets.

Hey Fred,

While you are there, I listened to your album "Dreamhouse" last Weekend. Superb recording. Great band. The drums border on being too far forward in the mix sometimes and then you remember that this is what it sounds like live. I like it a lot. There is a fine line between wallpaper and music sometimes and the art is in not crossing it (you don't). I hope you won't be offended when I say that your playing reminds be of David Benoit, because one of his albums "Waiting for spring" (with Emily Remler in stunning form on guitar) is an old favorite.

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Originally posted by Tim Jones:
Fred -

I did say I hoped I was wrong.

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Happily, you are.

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I used to be a session bass player and played quite a few of what greeny would describe as noodly meandering gigs. I and most of the bass players around me at the time played in pretty much the same way - with the back pick up on a Fender Jazz or similar bass, doing little sixteenth note runs here and there on top of walking grooves. And many of the players you see backing people like Herbie are just like we were. The weird thing is the way the acoustic players are taking on the same style.

However, it's been a long time since I played seriously or took any serous notice of how jazz bass playing was going - so you may have a point.

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Not having had the pleasure of hearing you or playing with you, what I have to say doesn't apply to you.

But the kind of player/playing you're describing is just kind of ... well, bad playing. By which I mean, non-musical, uncreative, not serving the music, and above all, not using every playing experience as an opportunity to make music at the highest level possible. A noodly player is almost always an immature player, despite their chronological age, and they have always been around and always will be.

Jaco Pastorious was an anomaly in that he was able to take spectacular flights of fancy while simultaneously holding down the groove and taking care of all necessary bass business as well as it can possibly be done. That's why he was so great. He spawned tens of thousands of bass players who fancied the flights but couldn't take care of biz. And since the bassist is the engine of an ensemble, that's not good.

Electric players guilty of this these days do tend to carry the Jaco influence, for better or worse, but acoustic players with those faults are descendants of the tradition initiated by Scott LaFaro and, later, Eddie Gomez. Lafaro and Gomez developed a more interactive, conversational way of responding to the music, both to the others in the rhythm section and to the soloists, and pianist Bill Evans' various trios (with LaFaro, Gomez, and toward the end of his life, Marc Johnson) are the paradigm of this concept.

As with Jaco, those who can do this as well as the masters are far and few between. The result, a plethora of noodlers. Often, it's about ego display rather than serving the music. For my own music, I'll take a player with a round, warm, in tune sound, who aspires to nothing more than laying down a great feeling groove, any gig of the week. If a player can do that, and solo with virtuosity (without sacrificing the groove), more power to them.

Let me reiterate that not knowing your playing at all, Tim, I therefore do not intend any of the above to be a comment on your musicianship.

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Originally posted by Minky:
Hey Fred,

While you are there, I listened to your album "Dreamhouse" last Weekend. Superb recording. Great band. The drums border on being too far forward in the mix sometimes and then you remember that this is what it sounds like live. I like it a lot. There is a fine line between wallpaper and music sometimes and the art is in not crossing it (you don't). I hope you won't be offended when I say that your playing reminds be of David Benoit, because one of his albums "Waiting for spring" (with Emily Remler in stunning form on guitar) is an old favorite.

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Hi Minky,

Thanks so much for the kind words, and I'm really glad you dug the music.

I don't know the Benoit record so I can't be offended. In fact, I hardly know his playing at all; I've listened mostly to Keith Jarrett, Lyle Mays, Bill Evans, Herbie Hancock, Fred Hersch, Rainer Bruninghaus, Bobo Stenson, John Taylor, among others.

Your comment about the drums being forward in the mix is interesting in that they were significantly farther from the mics than either the bass (closest) or the piano. Given that, I'm amazed at how close and present they sound; at times, the high hat sounds almost close-mic'd. The only problem for me was the hall; when the drummer, Sarah Allen, really hit the tubs hard (when musically necessary to do so, of course) it kicked up the reverb in the hall a bit too much for my taste, producing a sound which was simultaneously too loud and too distant.

One more thing: whenever that line between music and wallpaper draws near, TURN IT UP!

Originally posted by j8hn:
Can you HH experts plese tell me the name of 1 of his albums post Hhunters pre Sunlight 76-78ish which had some amazing Wah Wah Watson licks on it?

There's a very good album called "Survival of the Fittest" (post HH) which has some amazing wah-wah'ed guitar playing on it by the splendidly-named Blackbyrd McKnight.

The opener, "God Make Me Funky" is absolutely maginificent, especially the guitar.

Kevin

(PS it's available on CD, but is quite collectable on vinyl)

fred -

I agree with you. One of the reasons I stopped playing was that I realised it was one thing to be a technically impressive "walking bag of tricks and licks" (Anthony Jackson's phrase I think) and another to be a great musician.

PS What happened to Anthony Jackson - the worlds most heard and least known bass player?

Tim