Any Climbers Here?
Posted by: dave brubeck on 17 April 2010
Hello
I have been climbing at an indoor wall for about 6 months now, and am really enjoying it. It's good fun if you go with some mates, keeps you fit, and there all always new personal challenges to take on, so would recommend it to anyone of any age/ size to give it a go.
Anyway, I have been wondering about making the leap to outdoor climbing, and was wondering if anybody here takes part?
Is there some kind of outdoor course you can do in the UK? (the only knot I can confidently tie is a bow). Would be interested to hear from anybody involved.
And what is the likelihood of dying?
I have been climbing at an indoor wall for about 6 months now, and am really enjoying it. It's good fun if you go with some mates, keeps you fit, and there all always new personal challenges to take on, so would recommend it to anyone of any age/ size to give it a go.
Anyway, I have been wondering about making the leap to outdoor climbing, and was wondering if anybody here takes part?
Is there some kind of outdoor course you can do in the UK? (the only knot I can confidently tie is a bow). Would be interested to hear from anybody involved.
And what is the likelihood of dying?
Posted on: 17 April 2010 by Don Atkinson
You might try to get a response form Mogul in Kelowna BC. I have met him a couple of times and I know he is into mountain trecking (Himalayas, Mt Rainier, etc)), glacier crossing etc. He might also do rock climbing.
Cheers
Don
Cheers
Don
Posted on: 17 April 2010 by David Scott
I used to do a lot of climbing. The whole business of doing courses in etc. is a bit foreign to me as it was very much a DIY unregulated thing for me. I just went out climbing with people I met.
Having said that a mate of mine did start by doing a weeks climbing holiday in the lakes and I'd probably recommend something like that, if you don't know anyone who can take you out. He and a friend spent a week with a guide, being taken up big classic routes and learning to place gear etc. Google climbing guides or holidays in the lakes or cornwall and see what comes up. Bit arbitrary saying the lakes or cornwall really but they're both good places.
I've no idea whether or not some misbegotten soul has dreamt up a national climbing qualification. I certainly hope not. Get someone to show you the basics either for money or for free then go out and do easy climbs and keep your wits about you. Statistically it's fairly safe, but you can make it very very dangerous if you want to. Anyone who thinks having a certificate is likely to make them safer should probably leave it alone. That's not a dig. I realise you have to learn, but it's about self reliance and making sensible decisions consistently and you have to take responsibility for that to climb safely.
Having said that a mate of mine did start by doing a weeks climbing holiday in the lakes and I'd probably recommend something like that, if you don't know anyone who can take you out. He and a friend spent a week with a guide, being taken up big classic routes and learning to place gear etc. Google climbing guides or holidays in the lakes or cornwall and see what comes up. Bit arbitrary saying the lakes or cornwall really but they're both good places.
I've no idea whether or not some misbegotten soul has dreamt up a national climbing qualification. I certainly hope not. Get someone to show you the basics either for money or for free then go out and do easy climbs and keep your wits about you. Statistically it's fairly safe, but you can make it very very dangerous if you want to. Anyone who thinks having a certificate is likely to make them safer should probably leave it alone. That's not a dig. I realise you have to learn, but it's about self reliance and making sensible decisions consistently and you have to take responsibility for that to climb safely.
Posted on: 17 April 2010 by mongo
Tried to when I was about twelve or so.
Fell from about thirty feet.
Bounced off a rock, cracked my head and a rib or two.
Naturally the stairs have since been the limit of my ambitions.
Sometimes I get to the top.
Fell from about thirty feet.
Bounced off a rock, cracked my head and a rib or two.
Naturally the stairs have since been the limit of my ambitions.
Sometimes I get to the top.
Posted on: 17 April 2010 by winkyincanada
I'd recommend getting instruction. It is fun and I do think it is likely to help staying safe. But as David says, it is about making sensible decisions consistently - having instruction just gives you a platform to base those decisions on. Yes, you could get friends (or random strangers) to show you the ropes 
, and that's how most people do it, but if you're coming from an inexperienced position, you might not be able to tell if what you are being advised really makes any sense. I've had professional instruction in both mountaineering and in rock climbing. I thoroughly enjoyed it and feel it was a great way to start off.
You might also think of joining a climbing club, perhaps. You'll meet good experienced climbers and there will be some organisation of trips.
, and that's how most people do it, but if you're coming from an inexperienced position, you might not be able to tell if what you are being advised really makes any sense. I've had professional instruction in both mountaineering and in rock climbing. I thoroughly enjoyed it and feel it was a great way to start off.You might also think of joining a climbing club, perhaps. You'll meet good experienced climbers and there will be some organisation of trips.
Posted on: 17 April 2010 by David Scott
I can't really argue with what winky says. I think the thing that troubles me about instruction is that safety is always about judgment and what is safe in one situation ( or for one climber ) may actually be dangerous in another ( or for someone else ). As a beginner though, it's a good idea to go out with someone experienced who you trust and if that means hiring a guide, then do it. I'd try to get a good ratio though - if you're not part of a big group you'll get more attention and get into more real climbing situations which will actually equip you to go out and start doing it yourself. You really need a guide between 2 of you if you're going to get out and do proper routes. Anything else is too restrictive.
Posted on: 17 April 2010 by Exiled Highlander
Dave Brubeck
David Scott
Cheers
Jim
Quite small if you are properly trained. As an instructor I cant support training via "mates" as they may not really know what they are doing. Drop me an email and I can tell you my views on learning properly....email address in profile.quote:And what is the likelihood of dying?
David Scott
Utter bollocks IMO - you have little idea what you are talking about it seems. There is a well structured UK teaching hierarchy that is the best in the world. There is no "climbing certificate" but there is a highly structured instruction certification scheme that ensures beginners are taught safe technique.quote:statistically it's fairly safe, but you can make it very very dangerous if you want to. Anyone who thinks having a certificate is likely to make them safer should probably leave it alone.
Cheers
Jim
Posted on: 17 April 2010 by winkyincanada
quote:Originally posted by David Scott?:
I can't really argue with what winky says. I think the thing that troubles me about instruction is that safety is always about judgment and what is safe in one situation ( or for one climber ) may actually be dangerous in another ( or for someone else ). As a beginner though, it's a good idea to go out with someone experienced who you trust and if that means hiring a guide, then do it. I'd try to get a good ratio though - if you're not part of a big group you'll get more attention and get into more real climbing situations which will actually equip you to go out and start doing it yourself. You really need a guide between 2 of you if you're going to get out and do proper routes. Anything else is too restrictive.
Guide - climber ratio os a key. 1:1 is great but it is also really cool to do it with a buddy. A buddy and I split the cost to get a private mountaineering guide and on another occasion to get a rock-climbing instructor. Money well spent. Great fun, and we are now confident enough to do a lot of stuff by ourselves. I'd tend to shy away from signing on to a group thing. I did this once (mountaineering in the New Zealand Southern Alps) and prepared/studied/trained like hell, only to find that no-one else in the group had done any homework nor training and pace of travel and instruction was therefore painfully slow. Still useful and fun, but low-ratio with people you know is the way to go.
One great thing that professionals bring is local knowledge. Handy for finding that "secret" crag, and sometimes indispensable for serious mountaineering. It can go to far, however, as the annual circus on Everest attests. And then again there is nothing quite like "discovering" a route for yourselves.
Posted on: 17 April 2010 by tonym
I concur with Jim. Although my main field of activity was caving (I'm too old now to indulge in such vigorous pursuits) I spent too many hours on late-night rescues down cold, wet caves not to appreciate the benefits of giving folks proper training to equip them to deal with life or death situations, be it through properly structured formal courses or the rather more informal (but no less vigorous) training via the many excellent climbing and caving clubs in the UK.
Many folks manage to enjoy climbing and suchlike without proper training but inevitably there will be gaps in their knowledge which unfortunately will catch out the few who are faced with situations which ad hoc training doesn't equip them to handle.
Many folks manage to enjoy climbing and suchlike without proper training but inevitably there will be gaps in their knowledge which unfortunately will catch out the few who are faced with situations which ad hoc training doesn't equip them to handle.
Posted on: 17 April 2010 by David Scott
Jim,
A well structured teaching hierarchy sounds dreadful to me, but each to his own. I was taught safe technique bit by bit by friends and fellow climbers and I climbed safely for years. Throughout the whole thing I knew the risks and I knew my safety (and my partners) was my responsibility. The people I hung around with when I started to climb were totally untrained and unqualified but had numerous Scottish, alpine and even some Himalayan firsts between them.
We're in a very different place now that there's an indoor climbing wall in every town and a sizable industry providing what purports to be a gateway into climbing. Inevitably more and more people are taking it up and the industry is forced to appear to give some kind of assurance of their safety. This creates a totally different set of circumstances and the kind of regulation you both refer to is bound to happen.
Starting off with a training course isn't necessarily a bad thing and I think you'll notice I suggested that the OP might hire a guide – maybe not you though Jim, you sound a bit grumpy - just don't embarrass yourselves by promoting this patronising rubbish about not being able to climb safely without the proper training. Who trained the people who invented the training courses? The entire history of climbing was written by unqualified and untrained men and women. Were they all dangerous and irresponsible? Pity there wasn't a well structured hierarchy in place to teach them to do it properly.
A well structured teaching hierarchy sounds dreadful to me, but each to his own. I was taught safe technique bit by bit by friends and fellow climbers and I climbed safely for years. Throughout the whole thing I knew the risks and I knew my safety (and my partners) was my responsibility. The people I hung around with when I started to climb were totally untrained and unqualified but had numerous Scottish, alpine and even some Himalayan firsts between them.
Tony, this is exactly the sort of thing that people are bound to start thinking as soon as the idea of 'proper training' rears its head. I refer you to my friends above.quote:Many folks manage to enjoy climbing and suchlike without proper training but inevitably there will be gaps in their knowledge which unfortunately will catch out the few who are faced with situations which ad hoc training doesn't equip them to handle
We're in a very different place now that there's an indoor climbing wall in every town and a sizable industry providing what purports to be a gateway into climbing. Inevitably more and more people are taking it up and the industry is forced to appear to give some kind of assurance of their safety. This creates a totally different set of circumstances and the kind of regulation you both refer to is bound to happen.
Starting off with a training course isn't necessarily a bad thing and I think you'll notice I suggested that the OP might hire a guide – maybe not you though Jim, you sound a bit grumpy - just don't embarrass yourselves by promoting this patronising rubbish about not being able to climb safely without the proper training. Who trained the people who invented the training courses? The entire history of climbing was written by unqualified and untrained men and women. Were they all dangerous and irresponsible? Pity there wasn't a well structured hierarchy in place to teach them to do it properly.
Posted on: 18 April 2010 by tonym
quote:Originally posted by David Scott?:... just don't embarrass yourselves by promoting this patronising rubbish about not being able to climb safely without the proper training.
Why do you consider it embarrassing for us to suggest that proper training is necessary for people to climb (or cave) safely? I had no formal training in either and have no certificate.
However, my informal training was indeed very "proper, as probably yours was too. When I started climbing and caving in the early '60s there were very few courses available and no climbing walls (other than those up the side of various public buildings, but let's not go there!)
Climbing was much simpler then - 100 yds of no 3 cable-laid nylon for a lifeline, no "friends", poor protection. Nowadays it's so much more technical & if I was still up to it I'd certainly be taking some of the excellent courses you can go on.
Much as we might regret it, if you intend taking others climbing or caving these days you need to make sure you're covering yourself against possible litigation.
Posted on: 18 April 2010 by tonym
quote:Originally posted by tonym:quote:Originally posted by David Scott?:... just don't embarrass yourselves by promoting this patronising rubbish about not being able to climb safely without the proper training.
Why do you consider it embarrassing for us to suggest that proper training is necessary for people to climb (or cave) safely? I had no formal training in either and have no certificate.
However, my informal training was indeed very "proper", as probably yours was too. When I started climbing and caving in the early '60s there were very few courses available and no climbing walls (other than those up the side of various public buildings, but let's not go there!)
Climbing was much simpler then - 100 yds of no 3 cable-laid nylon for a lifeline, no "friends", poor protection. Nowadays it's so much more technical & if I was still up to it I'd certainly be taking some of the excellent courses you can go on.
Much as we might regret it, if you intend taking others climbing or caving these days you need to make sure you're covering yourself against possible litigation.
Posted on: 18 April 2010 by Gary S.
Another climber here, though I wouldn't for one minute claim to be an expert or capable of doing anything too extreme.
I only got into it a few years ago, almost by accident. Having been a keen walker for years, and spurred on by my enthusiastic eldest son, we started moving from hill walking to mountainering and wanted to do some winter skills training. Having taught ourselves the baiscs, we wanted to do an intermediate level winter skills course, but were advised we needed to have a certain standard of ropework for this, so we enrolled on a climbing course in the Mendips to learn our ropework and this sparked an interst in climbing as well as the mountaineering. We have continued to do both ever since.
My main interest is in winter walking and winter climbing and we've just done an ice climbing course in Scotland, which was fantastic and I now can't wait to next winter to start getting some decent climbs in.
On the issue of training, I think the important thing is that one is taught the correct techniques and the proper conventions/etiquet etc, in our case we have done various courses with qualified instructors, but I see no reason why one couldn't learn this from mates, providing they are experienced and have been properly taught themselves. The danger is that your mate is not as good as he thinks and with something potentially as dangerous as climbing, would you want to take the chance?
Gary
I only got into it a few years ago, almost by accident. Having been a keen walker for years, and spurred on by my enthusiastic eldest son, we started moving from hill walking to mountainering and wanted to do some winter skills training. Having taught ourselves the baiscs, we wanted to do an intermediate level winter skills course, but were advised we needed to have a certain standard of ropework for this, so we enrolled on a climbing course in the Mendips to learn our ropework and this sparked an interst in climbing as well as the mountaineering. We have continued to do both ever since.
My main interest is in winter walking and winter climbing and we've just done an ice climbing course in Scotland, which was fantastic and I now can't wait to next winter to start getting some decent climbs in.
On the issue of training, I think the important thing is that one is taught the correct techniques and the proper conventions/etiquet etc, in our case we have done various courses with qualified instructors, but I see no reason why one couldn't learn this from mates, providing they are experienced and have been properly taught themselves. The danger is that your mate is not as good as he thinks and with something potentially as dangerous as climbing, would you want to take the chance?
Gary
Posted on: 18 April 2010 by Matthew
As another climber of more years than I care to remember and whom never had any formal instruction I have always felt that one of the most enjoyable elements has been the freedom from interferance from "offical" bodies.
However it is encumbant on us all to ensure that people whom wish to enjoy the mountains do so in a safe manner.
As such someone just starting out one should always be accompanied with an experienced partner. As to whether that is an instructor or a member of a local club / friend must be up to you to decide.
Still back to the original quesion !!
Have a look at the BMC (British Mountaineering Council)web site or Plas y Brenin.
As to the likely-hood of dying - it's a dead cert ! just a matter of when really
Above all enjoy it !
Matt
However it is encumbant on us all to ensure that people whom wish to enjoy the mountains do so in a safe manner.
As such someone just starting out one should always be accompanied with an experienced partner. As to whether that is an instructor or a member of a local club / friend must be up to you to decide.
Still back to the original quesion !!
Have a look at the BMC (British Mountaineering Council)web site or Plas y Brenin.
As to the likely-hood of dying - it's a dead cert ! just a matter of when really
Above all enjoy it !
Matt
Posted on: 18 April 2010 by David Scott
quote:Why do you consider it embarrassing for us to suggest that proper training is necessary for people to climb (or cave) safely? I had no formal training in either and have no certificate.
However, my informal training was indeed very "proper", as probably yours was too.
Tony,
In that case, I take it back, but in the context of this thread I think you can understand why I interpreted 'proper training' the way I did. Indeed in the paragraph above the one I quoted you seemed to suggest that for 'proper training' you had to go to an instructor or a club.
Posted on: 18 April 2010 by Exiled Highlander
David
So what is the alternative? Having any unqualified Joe Bloggs set themselves up as a climbing instructor and then charge people money to learn? If you think that is OK then fine but I don't.
I never at any point said that people need to be taught by qualified instructors. What I did say was that there is a well structured teaching heirarchy (SPA, MIA, MIC etc) where the instructors are measured not on climbing ability but on their understanding of safety, safety systems, rescue systems etc. You seem to have an aversion to that and that's fine as it's your choice.
The problem is that not all "mates" actually know what they are doing. I have seen the most horrendous and dangerous things being done by climbers that endanger not only their own lives but that of their mates as well.
For example the guy that appeared on the top of Sgurr Alisdair on Skye having just come up a pretty steep face. He stopped at the edge and then without setting up a belay proceeded stand in a "strong position" and started to pull in the rope and lo and behold six of his mates were tied to it. The face was about VS. How he and his non climber mates made it I don't know.
Or the climber on the crags at Huntley's Cave who came up a single pitch route (Severe from memory) and then proceeded to setup a belay in front up himself in such a way that if his second fell he would have been pulled back over the edge and the belay may or not have held. He could certainly tie a clove hitch and he used two separate anchors but he just did it all wrong. He had no clue of the basic dynamics!
I am not for a minute advocating taking all risk out of the sport or I would not have spent six weeks last year trying for a rare ascent (the 7th ever) of Nanda Devi East but there are ways to learn safely and to learn good fundamental technique that will stand you in good stead for the rest of your climbing life (read that as you may :-) )
At heart I don't think we are far apart but I think you need to understand a bit more about the qualifications and the schemes before you are so dismissive of them and the UK teaching structure.
Cheers
Jim
quote:A well structured teaching hierarchy sounds dreadful to me, but each to his own.
So what is the alternative? Having any unqualified Joe Bloggs set themselves up as a climbing instructor and then charge people money to learn? If you think that is OK then fine but I don't.
I never at any point said that people need to be taught by qualified instructors. What I did say was that there is a well structured teaching heirarchy (SPA, MIA, MIC etc) where the instructors are measured not on climbing ability but on their understanding of safety, safety systems, rescue systems etc. You seem to have an aversion to that and that's fine as it's your choice.
The problem is that not all "mates" actually know what they are doing. I have seen the most horrendous and dangerous things being done by climbers that endanger not only their own lives but that of their mates as well.
For example the guy that appeared on the top of Sgurr Alisdair on Skye having just come up a pretty steep face. He stopped at the edge and then without setting up a belay proceeded stand in a "strong position" and started to pull in the rope and lo and behold six of his mates were tied to it. The face was about VS. How he and his non climber mates made it I don't know.
Or the climber on the crags at Huntley's Cave who came up a single pitch route (Severe from memory) and then proceeded to setup a belay in front up himself in such a way that if his second fell he would have been pulled back over the edge and the belay may or not have held. He could certainly tie a clove hitch and he used two separate anchors but he just did it all wrong. He had no clue of the basic dynamics!
I am not for a minute advocating taking all risk out of the sport or I would not have spent six weeks last year trying for a rare ascent (the 7th ever) of Nanda Devi East but there are ways to learn safely and to learn good fundamental technique that will stand you in good stead for the rest of your climbing life (read that as you may :-) )
At heart I don't think we are far apart but I think you need to understand a bit more about the qualifications and the schemes before you are so dismissive of them and the UK teaching structure.
Cheers
Jim
Posted on: 18 April 2010 by David Scott
quote:heart I don't think we are far apart
Jim, I think this is true. I also think you should bear in mind that I suggested the OP might consider hiring a guide. Structured hierarchy's really aren't my thing, butI have no doubt that the majority of qualified instructors know what they're doing. If you agree that it's not necessary to be professionally trained to climb safely then I agree that using a guide can be a good option.
I'm sure we agree that you have to keep on learning and thinking about what you're doing long after your initial instruction, and ultimately this will be what makes you a competent climber.
It'd be interesting to ask the bloke on Sgurr Alasdair what his thinking was. Doesn't sound good on the face of it, but maybe they were all shit hot!quote:For example the guy that appeared on the top of Sgurr Alisdair on Skye having just come up a pretty steep face. He stopped at the edge and then without setting up a belay proceeded stand in a "strong position" and started to pull in the rope and lo and behold six of his mates were tied to it. The face was about VS. How he and his non climber mates made it I don't know.
Or the climber on the crags at Huntley's Cave who came up a single pitch route (Severe from memory) and then proceeded to setup a belay in front up himself in such a way that if his second fell he would have been pulled back over the edge and the belay may or not have held. He could certainly tie a clove hitch and he used two separate anchors but he just did it all wrong. He had no clue of the basic dynamics!
I've seen people like the second guy you mention. I find it hard to imagine that anyone I had introduced to climbing would have acted this way - they certainly wouldn't have learnt it from me. I wonder if he had got anyone to explain it to him at all? I have come across people who learned on a climbing wall, bought lots of new gear and went climbing without getting anyone to show them how. I certainly wouldn't recommend that.
You do have to make a judgement about whether the person who first takes you climbing is an idiot. I was lucky in that I knew people who very obviously weren't. As I said, if you're not in that position, hiring a guide might be a good idea.
Posted on: 18 April 2010 by tonym
The friends I've made through climbing and caving are my best friends.
When you've shared a few hairy experiences, seen people show their true colours under stress, and put your life in their hands and vice versa you certainly learn what trust and friendship's all about.
When you've shared a few hairy experiences, seen people show their true colours under stress, and put your life in their hands and vice versa you certainly learn what trust and friendship's all about.
Posted on: 18 April 2010 by Exiled Highlander
David
Eh...no they weren't....shitting themselves rather than shit hot. Thye asked us how to get down..so off they all went down the Great Stone Shoot. I forgot to mention...it was wet and foggy as well.
Dave Brubeck
Chances of dying? All depends on how safely you climb....mostly.
These guys survived...impressive stuff.
Enjoy it when you get out there Dave B.
Cheers
Jim
quote:It'd be interesting to ask the bloke on Sgurr Alasdair what his thinking was. Doesn't sound good on the face of it, but maybe they were all shit hot!
Eh...no they weren't....shitting themselves rather than shit hot. Thye asked us how to get down..so off they all went down the Great Stone Shoot. I forgot to mention...it was wet and foggy as well.
Dave Brubeck
Plenty of courses, plenty of choice and you rightly guess climbing outdoors on a real crag is very diffrent from climbing indoors and the controlled situation on a wall.quote:Is there some kind of outdoor course you can do in the UK? (the only knot I can confidently tie is a bow). Would be interested to hear from anybody involved.
And what is the likelihood of dying?
Chances of dying? All depends on how safely you climb....mostly.
These guys survived...impressive stuff.
Enjoy it when you get out there Dave B.
Cheers
Jim
Posted on: 18 April 2010 by David Scott
quote:Eh...no they weren't....shitting themselves rather than shit hot. Thye asked us how to get down..so off they all went down the Great Stone Shoot. I forgot to mention...it was wet and foggy as well.
Doesn't sound great. Still if they were that scared it probably did them some good.
Posted on: 18 April 2010 by fama
In summary then if you value your life:
Go on a course with a qualified instructor
unless ofcourse your mate happens to be Dave Cuthbertson!
Go on a course with a qualified instructor
unless ofcourse your mate happens to be Dave Cuthbertson!
Posted on: 18 April 2010 by nap-ster
There's a big difference between a climbing wall at room temperature in a controlled environment and a winter ice climb and all that brings with it. Experience of the conditions you might have to face and the abilities to deal with them are paramount.
The ability to make the decision to say no and go home or to the tea shop/pub is a good place to start on the ladder.
The ability to make the decision to say no and go home or to the tea shop/pub is a good place to start on the ladder.
Posted on: 18 April 2010 by David Scott
Or any one of several thousand other competent climbers in the UK who could do a perfectly good job of showing a beginner how it's done.quote:In summary then if you value your life:
Go on a course with a qualified instructor
unless ofcourse your mate happens to be Dave Cuthbertson!
Posted on: 18 April 2010 by fama
Dave
Im sure you mean well but as you say you have no experience of courses etc
" The whole business of doing courses in etc. is a bit foreign to me as it was very much a DIY unregulated thing for me. I just went out climbing with people I met."
I feel its essential to learn proper safety techniques etc and be confident in your teacher,
if you are a beginner then you dont know this nor do you know who is safe and who is not.
That is why its important to start off with the right instruction, Dave Cuthbertson is a professional mountain guide.
Im sure you mean well but as you say you have no experience of courses etc
" The whole business of doing courses in etc. is a bit foreign to me as it was very much a DIY unregulated thing for me. I just went out climbing with people I met."
I feel its essential to learn proper safety techniques etc and be confident in your teacher,
if you are a beginner then you dont know this nor do you know who is safe and who is not.
That is why its important to start off with the right instruction, Dave Cuthbertson is a professional mountain guide.
Posted on: 18 April 2010 by Exiled Highlander
David
From the sound of it you clearly don't value the amount of work it takes to get an MIA or MIC qualification (never mind full Mountain Guide). If you think that the average climber is as skilled and as well qualified (at teaching) as these folks then, IMO, you are totally wrong.
You do seem to have a basic problem with the fact that there is a teaching structure in place. One that is designed to teach the fundamentals and most importantly to teach them properly.
Jim
quote:Or any one of several thousand other competent climbers in the UK who could do a perfectly good job of showing a beginner how it's done.
From the sound of it you clearly don't value the amount of work it takes to get an MIA or MIC qualification (never mind full Mountain Guide). If you think that the average climber is as skilled and as well qualified (at teaching) as these folks then, IMO, you are totally wrong.
You do seem to have a basic problem with the fact that there is a teaching structure in place. One that is designed to teach the fundamentals and most importantly to teach them properly.
Jim
Posted on: 18 April 2010 by David Scott
quote:Dave
Im sure you mean well but as you say you have no experience of courses etc
" The whole business of doing courses in etc. is a bit foreign to me as it was very much a DIY unregulated thing for me. I just went out climbing with people I met."
I feel its essential to learn proper safety techniques etc and be confident in your teacher,
if you are a beginner then you dont know this nor do you know who is safe and who is not.
That is why its important to start off with the right instruction, Dave Cuthbertson is a professional mountain guide.
FMA,
Please don't patronise me. I don't see why the question of my 'meaning well' would arise except as a backhanded compliment intended to belittle me and dismiss my opinions. When I climbed I knew people who taught courses and had guiding qualifications. Some of them used to climb with me on their days off, so they must have thought I was doing something right. Dave Cuthbertson is indeed a qualified guide and a very good climber. I doubt he took beginners classes when he started, though maybe I'm wrong, but I've no doubt he would do an excellent job of introducing someone to the sport. There are very very many other good climbers who would also do an excellent job. Some of them are qualified. Most of them are not.
When I was a beginner, as I was neither unusually stupid nor reckless, I was perfectly capable of working out for myself that it was essential to learn proper safety techniques etc and be confident in the person who was showing me them. So I used my good sense and my judgement, listened to other climbers, found someone who obviously knew what she was doing and asked her to take me out.
My argument against regulation - which is unavoidable now, as I've already acknowledged - is that it inevitably leads to just the kind of debilitiating, disempowering stereotypes that you seem so keen to promulgate.