Any Climbers Here?

quote:

From the sound of it you clearly don't value the amount of work it takes to get an MIA or MIC qualification (never mind full Mountain Guide). If you think that the average climber is as skilled and as well qualified (at teaching) as these folks then, IMO, you are totally wrong.

Jim, I'm really sorry, but it's just true that you can learn everything you need to start climbing from a competent climber who has done no courses. I'm sure the instructors courses are good. I know the process is lengthy and expensive and I would certainly not underestimate the amount of work involved in completing them. I think it's fair enough that you have to have done them before you set up as an instructor, although, as it happens, I used to know some excellent guides and instructors who were unqualified. I really understand the need for industry standards/etc/etc. But you do not need to be a qualified instructor in order to teach someone how to climb. We all know this is true. You admitted it. What has changed?

Check this out. NOLS trains guides and runs trips all over the world. Great program and serious people.

http://www.nols.edu/courses/fi...skill/climbing.shtml

There are climbing clubs and courses all over the US, and I am sure you can find something near you. It is very much a learn by doing skill, and real rock is very different from the gym. Safety is very important, and you need to go with somebody who is trained and current.

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you need to go with somebody who is trained and current.

I'm clearly going to have to give up on this. It's obviously not true, but once everybody starts to participate in the peculiar kind of doublethink necessary to go on believing it, it might as well be.

An interesting exchange of views here. Personally if one of my non-climbing mates asks me to take them climbing I gently suggest they might be better to enroll on an indoor wall course, not because I couldn't teach them the basics, but rather because I'd hate to miss something important IYSWIM. I've seen a lad deck out from the top of the local wall through not tying in properly (a good climber who got distracted at the wrong time and didn't finish his figure 8...)

WRT the OP's question, I made the leap to outdoor climbing by getting to know a few of the lads at the wall well, one happened to be an instructor and after some weeks he invited us to go with him to climb on rock - he did make sure we understood he wasn't instructing us, indemnity rears its ugly head…

Climbing outdoors is a whole new ball game, different skills eg placing protection complicates lead climbing, you have weather & wind to contend with, but in some ways it can be easier than climbing a route on an indoor wall - your feet tend to stick. It's a blast :O)

Most climbing centres do an indoor to crag course. Or you could Google a sport climbing holiday somewhere sunny, some companies will give instruction, and you don't have to worry about placing gear.

Re dying - with the right knowledge & skills and the right gear you're minimising the risk. But the risk is part of the fun.

quote:

Originally posted by David Scott?:

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In summary then if you value your life:
Go on a course with a qualified instructor
unless ofcourse your mate happens to be Dave Cuthbertson!

Or any one of several thousand other competent climbers in the UK who could do a perfectly good job of showing a beginner how it's done.

No. To know how to do something is not the same as knowing how to teach those skills. How does a beginner know who is competent, and who can properly teach? The structured qualifications are designed to help beginners answer this question. They in no way restrict the "freedom" of climbing. The instructors and guides I have had are good and fun people. No egos and a love of the sport so intense that they have chosen to do it for a living and inevitably remain poor. True passion.

As in so many things training is not a substitute for experience, and vice-versa.

The issue about structured training vs informal 'apprenticeship' usually ends up polarised between the two, in truth good learning requires both.

Bruce

quote:

Originally posted by David Scott?:

quote:

Dave
Im sure you mean well but as you say you have no experience of courses etc
" The whole business of doing courses in etc. is a bit foreign to me as it was very much a DIY unregulated thing for me. I just went out climbing with people I met."

I feel its essential to learn proper safety techniques etc and be confident in your teacher,
if you are a beginner then you dont know this nor do you know who is safe and who is not.
That is why its important to start off with the right instruction, Dave Cuthbertson is a professional mountain guide.

FMA,

Please don't patronise me. I don't see why the question of my 'meaning well' would arise except as a backhanded compliment intended to belittle me and dismiss my opinions. When I climbed I knew people who taught courses and had guiding qualifications. Some of them used to climb with me on their days off, so they must have thought I was doing something right. Dave Cuthbertson is indeed a qualified guide and a very good climber. I doubt he took beginners classes when he started, though maybe I'm wrong, but I've no doubt he would do an excellent job of introducing someone to the sport. There are very very many other good climbers who would also do an excellent job. Some of them are qualified. Most of them are not.

When I was a beginner, as I was neither unusually stupid nor reckless, I was perfectly capable of working out for myself that it was essential to learn proper safety techniques etc and be confident in the person who was showing me them. So I used my good sense and my judgement, listened to other climbers, found someone who obviously knew what she was doing and asked her to take me out.

My argument against regulation - which is unavoidable now, as I've already acknowledged - is that it inevitably leads to just the kind of debilitiating, disempowering stereotypes that you seem so keen to promulgate.

Your opinions are just that.
Not everyone is going to have access to mates
who are climbers etc and even if they did my opinion is that there is no substitute for qualified instruction at beginner level.

It's a real shame such an interesting topic's done the usual and degenerated into a slagging match.

winky,

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To know how to do something is not the same as knowing how to teach those skills.

True, but as a trained teacher myself I know that in a one to one situation lots of untrained people who have a passion for the subject can do an excellent job.

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How does a beginner know who is competent, and who can properly teach?

Judgement. Beginners are people. Most people aren't stupid.

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The instructors and guides I have had are good and fun people. No egos and a love of the sport so intense that they have chosen to do it for a living and inevitably remain poor. True passion.

I've no doubt this is true. Out of interest, did you think I had said anything that called this into question?

Fama,

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Your opinions are just that.

Thank you. Did you realise that your socks were.... um, what are you saying exactly?

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Not everyone is going to have access to mates who are climbers etc

quote:

I think you'll find I acknowledged that in my first post.

my opinion is that there is no substitute for qualified instruction at beginner level.

Good for you.

tonym

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It's a real shame such an interesting topic's done the usual and degenerated into a slagging match.

I know. And I'm sorry it's been uncomfortable. I've been feeling very depressed about the way things seem to be going and I don't feel people have understood the point I'm trying to make. A conversation would be easier perhaps, but this touches on things I feel really deeply about and have thought about a great deal. I think there is a price for regulation and my real anxiety is that we ( if I can still count myself as part of the climbing community ) have yet to pay it.

David

My last comment on this subject -

quote:

I think there is a price for regulation and my real anxiety is that we ( if I can still count myself as part of the climbing community ) have yet to pay it.

I hate to tell you this but the UK teaching structures have been in place for many, many years so nothing has really changed.

They don't regulate climbing (which seems to be your biggest concern) but they do regulate industry standards of those who teach. If you don't think there is a place for ensuring quality standards (and best practice) are in place and met for something as inherently dangerous as climbing then good for you.

Be safe.

Jim

Jim, I really don't want to fall out with you and have no ill opinion of you or your work whatsoever. I know a bit more about UK teaching structures than you might think and I know they've been around since I was climbing. But something has changed. If you had asked this question in a public forum 15 years ago there would have been a lot more voices agreeing that it wasn't necessary to start on a training course. The qualifications may not have changed, but it seems that the way most people get into climbing certainly has. I'm very well aware that climbing itself isn't regulated, but my concern is that actually the only way to eliminate the unsafe practices you describe would be to do just that and that in time, as generations of climbers enter and live in the an environment in which structured training is seen as a necessary part of the activity this might come to be seen as a more and more reasonable option. I have already conceded that it's inevitable that professional guides should be regulated, that the courses are probably very good and that most guides/ instructors are probably very competent people. I hope you don't mind that I'm not prepared to go further than that, but after all, not all teachers, doctors or lawyers are competent so why should climbing instructors be any different?

I've been saying something very simple: You can learn to climb safely from an unqualified person. This is obviously true as many people have done it. For me this was better than taking a course. It's also the way the sport has survived and developed for most of its history. If other people prefer formal instruction that's great. To me though, the idea, which has been stated at times in this thread, that you have to have formal instruction is untrue and disempowering. And my larger fear is that as that idea permeates climbing culture ( which it seems to be doing, possibly because the most common way in to climbing now seems to be doing a course at the local climbing wall ) it might create a context in which regulation of climbing itself came to be seen as more acceptable. I expect you would dislike that as much as me and I wish you well.

Be safe yourself. And feel free to tell climbing stories and post more links like that last one.

David

Edit: perhaps a better way of summing up is that my anxiety is generated not by an increase in regulation but a growing culture of dependence on regulation. I hope I turn out to be wrong. In some areas - children's play for example - the culture is swinging back away from regulation towards an increasing acceptance of risk.

I started climbing in my early teens and finding that I could do it 'easily', kept going. I had a teacher who had climbed extensively in the alps and I learnt a huge amount. Most importantly when to get off a climb. This has kept me alive more than once.

I found there are two real parts to this. One is climbing as a second and learning basic rope skills. The second is climbing as a lead and hoping that the person who is seconding has real rope skills! There is absolutely no substitute to learning how to handle a rope, how to tie it ( all changed now......I had an armoury of knots for different situations), how to let it out, watch for wear, and then hold someone who has/is falling. I remember doing an exercise of belaying some 30ft up a tree and holding a falling log before it hits the ground! No amount of holding a rope tight will prepare you for the fact that you've forgotten to lean into that belay and the bugger who has just peeled off above you is about to take you away too. ( The automatic reaction of everyone, everyone, at that point is to let go of the rope! You will only want to save yourself!)

Placing protection is an aquired skill and one which can be learnt by error but better by a good teacher.

Leading is a whole other ball game. Some can and do, others can and hate it! There is no guilt in enjoying leading VS ( or what ever they are now) and not ES's.

Jim is right we have an excellent teaching structure in this country, use it or join a club. Most clubs will get you started with care and support. Go to a few meets first and talk to the members about what they do and where they go, buy the guide books, start at vdiff, learn about the weather, the rock conditions.....

I climbed to a a fairly high grade in Scotland, Wales and the Lake District and learnt that I had much more fun seconding. So I climbed with those that enjoyed leading. It was fair exchange because they knew I could stop the falling log before it hit the ground!

Finally I moved to snow climbing which I now do very infrequently but enjoy hugely and prefer to solo ( which is odd I admit). That's experience tho'. I do remember the first time I went to the alps and decided to do Mt Blanc, not particularly challenging to many but having not climbed for 10 years by then a challenge to me. Because I hadn't climbed in the alps before I put if some practice and joined up with two lads who had just done a 5 day alpine course. Better to have some cover to my inexperience! What was interesting was that it was my long past experience that made us stop while one of them aclimatised to the altitude. Nothing clever here just experience.

So do go and climb, learn basic skills via a course or a club and practice slowly at first until you know the risks you might be taking....then decide whether or not to take them. Be Safe as Jim says and enjoy yourself it is great great fun.

james

David

Just for the record....I do not instruct for a living as I never had the balls to be as poor as most climbing instructors! It's been over 10 years since I took any money for doing that.

At the heart of our disagreement is your belief that I (and others) are stating that the only way to learn climbing safely is to learn from qualified instructors. I have never at any point said that. I do stand by my belief that your chances of learning proper technique (and best practice) come from someone who has been taught to teach, been assessed on their teaching and who does it for a living. Sure there are climbers out there who are probably pretty good at passing on technique but you do stand a much better chance of being taught properly from someone who is practised in the arts and skills of teaching.

You have been lucky, you apparently were taught be someone that you trusted and that you believed knew what they were doing. The problem is that most beginners don't know good from bad, can't tell experience and capability from bravado and bullshit.

As for stories, if I survive my planned trip to Norway's Lofeten Islands in June I'll post some pics.

In the meantime, at the heart of this discussion is is a common love of the unknown, the risk, the fear that adrenaline rush that accompanies all climbs. To turn this thread back to a positive note for the OP (who has now probably been scared away!), here is the type of situation that climbing can get you into...taken at 20,000ft or so on Longstaff's Col on Nanda Devi East last year. Looks great huh? What a spectacular place to camp and to wake up to?



Or this from the same spot looking back the way...ideal eh?



What you don't see is the horrendous weather that followed that night and led to an epic retreat down an avalanche prone slope that left us all pretty mentally and physically exhausted.

We may disagree on the methods but at heart we don't disagree on the reasons for doing it.

I really am done on the instructor vs. "mate" debate though.

Climb safe everyone.

Cheers

Jim

Lovely pics Jim,

Does the route go up the buttress?

David

Yes it it does.

Cheers

Jim

live broadcast planned again for 28th august
live HD televised ascent of Sron Ulladale on Harris

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sco..._islands/8625352.stm

quote:

And what is the likelihood of dying?

Climbing indoors is no more dangeous than everyday life: only one person has died in the last 20 years and this was from a heart-attack.

Sports climbing (bolt protection) outdoors is probably only slightly more dangerous. Probably no significant increase in risk over everyday life.

Traditional rock-climbing (leader-placed protection) is a little more dangerous, comparable to driving a car aggressively or a motor-bike defensively, though it varies greatly according to judgement and experience. Horse riding, mountain biking and skiing have similar levels of risk.

Winter climbing in Scotland or summer climbing in the Alps are considerably more dangerous, higher risk than a 'dangerous' job like working offshore.

High altitude mountaineering is extremely dangerous, comparable to front line soldiering in Afghanistan.

You choose where to draw the line. I've personaly known several people who have died mountaineering in The Alps and Himalayas but I don't know anyone who has died rock climbing in the UK. So I choose to do the latter but not the former.

duncan

Ignore my previous answer and watch this instead.

duncan

Duncan

quote:

You choose where to draw the line. I've personaly known several people who have died mountaineering in The Alps and Himalayas but I don't know anyone who has died rock climbing in the UK. So I choose to do the latter but not the former.

I, unfortunately knew a couple of people who died rock climbing in the UK, some more who died winter climbing in Scotland.....oh and I came close to (most likely) to dying on an indoor wall after some utter carelessness with a harness buckle many years ago...

Cheers

Jim

I actually suffer fear of height to a degree where even the Severn Bridge makes me uncomfortable. Even walking in the Lake District has left me in utter terror and at one point retracing my steps to avoid a certain place that frightened the other three not one bit! I began to feel that my sense of upright had gone and I felt I was falling backwards, even though I was already on the ground lying on my back. Bloody terrifying ...

Never again will I stray from the valley bottoms!

Okay I do like the grassy rolling Malverns and some walkable mountains in Norway! I like the feeling that if I tripped I would hit the ground and move no further!

ATB from George

quote:

Originally posted by GFFJ:

Never again will I stray from the valley bottoms!

Okay I do like the grassy rolling Malverns and some walkable mountains in Norway! I like the feeling that if I tripped I would hit the ground and move no further!

ATB from George

George I'm still laughing

And I agree. The steepest I will climb is about 1 in 20.

Regards, Paul.

quote:

Originally posted by djc:
Ignore my previous answer and watch this instead.

duncan

Well. That was a good introduction.

Think I'll sit down.

George

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I like the feeling that if I tripped I would hit the ground and move no further!

That is absolutely what happens when you fall - so no problem there!

Jim

People have been known to hit the ground more than once on the way down though.