just demoed Intro's on Nait-2 at home...
Posted by: Alco on 17 April 2002
Hi guys,
About 2,5 hours ago my Naim dealer came by for a home demo of the Intro II.
In my livingroom on the Nait-2/CDX combo.
Well,... it was...... one BIG dissapointment! 
But....I can't believe it had much to do with the Intro's. In the store it sounded superb.
At home the bass was too much,uncontrolled,fat!
(just the opposite of what most people said about the Intro's!)
The mids were also a bit coloured it seemed,but all in all,voices sounded pretty fine,imo.
We soon came to the conclusion that it was the room acoustics 
The distance between the 'Naim system' wall and the 'listening' wall and the floating laminate.
Afterall, thinking back...all troubles started when I just got my new laminate floor. A nice cherry laminate. Looks lovely,but kills the music!
So,...I still got my SF's and I don't now where to go now... The dealer suggested maybe some Totem 'Mite's.
Does this acoustic/floating laminate problem sounds familiar to anybody ??
(btw: I'm not gonna change my room into a typical HiFi-listening room with thick rugs on the wall,or my couch in the middle of the room,it IS a livingroom!)
Damn,....wish I never sold them Kan's. They sounded fine in this room.
well, see ya guys,
Greetings,
Alco
Posted on: 17 April 2002 by ejl
quote:
oes this acoustic/floating laminate problem sounds familiar to anybody ??
If you mean that the floor is "floating" in the sense of being suspended wood, then yes, it sounds very familiar, having moved into a new home with exactly this in recent months. Imagine it with Isobariks fronted by 135s and you have a worst-case scenario.
Lots of fussing with the stands and placement has improved things, but not solved the problem. There was a post recently about controlling bass on suspended wood floors. I think it was titled "Suspended wood floors?" or something. Some good tips.
Posted on: 17 April 2002 by Alco
Thanks for the tips, ejl!
Eric, I already have seen some (black) Kan I's, but it's just that I need/want to get rid of my current Sonus Faber's first. I lost a bit too muc hmoney lately,ya see...
regards,
Alco
Posted on: 17 April 2002 by Alco
Too bad I live in Holland,eh....
I've never seen any Mana dealer in Holland, let alone in my area.
So I'm afraid that's no option.
During the home-demo we even took out the PIP's between the upper- and lower cabinet of the Intro's,so it would work as a sealed box.
Yep,that solved the fat,overwhelming bass problem allright... In fact,there was no bass left and also the mids were horrible.
The Intro's were spiked and placed on a two marble slabs.
Anyone interested in some beautifull,handmade walnut Sonus Faber 'Concertino's' by any chance... 
Greetings,
Alco 
Posted on: 17 April 2002 by Dev B
sounds like you have a bass problem in your room. as a starter put some cardboard boxes (filled with scrunched up newspaper) in the corners - see what happens. Then try an pull the speakers out into the room until the bass response is ok (but the mid will be weird) - sounds like to me that you need some room treatment or powerful amps or get yourself another of kans again. hope you find success in your musical adventure. regards, Dev
ps. you could try a pair a rega kytes. much better than kans (and works with a nait 2)imho
Posted on: 17 April 2002 by Andreas Nystroem
quote:
rega kytes. much better than kans
Well perhaps when it starts snowing in hell imho 
Posted on: 17 April 2002 by Rico
I've had both Kans and Kytes. I rate the Kans as better overall - but would like to comment that Dev's comment has merit particularly from the system synergy POV.
IIRC, when you were asking way-back-when about installing your laminated "full-floating-floor" there were some warnings. If removing said floor is not an option, I suggest you start down the room-tuning path as outlined by that sensible chap Dev.
Rico - SM/Mullet Audio
Posted on: 17 April 2002 by Andrew Randle
Alco,
Here's another suggestion that might suit your room.... Quad ESLs. They can be brought forward a little (but do not need much room behind them) and will suit your decor very nicely.
I would highly recommend them - either the new ones, or (as you are on a limited budget) at pair of ESL63s.
Quad ESLs are said to work very well with Naim equipment.
Andrew Randle
Currently in the "Linn Binn"
Posted on: 17 April 2002 by Scott Mckenzie
ES12's - I demmed them before eventually going for my Dyn's, which I preferred due to the extra bass weight. The acoustics may work better, but they are quite forward sounding so the controlled bass may lose out to the harshness....maybe try some Dyn's too - detailed, bassy but never harsh.
I can highly recommend the Contour 1.1
Posted on: 17 April 2002 by Mike Sae
Sorry to hear that the Intro's didn't work, Alco. I sympathise with your speaker problems, as I've been there, too. It's particularly frustrating when all the alternatives mentioned by folks aren't locally available.
Indeed, after reading through your speaker threads, your story so far reads like a classic Bildungsroman- Don't worry, they usually have good endings!
If I may, here's some suggestions (which unfortunately all involve spending some money):
Blind-buy a pair of Mana Soundbases for placement under your Sonus Fabers. I agree (as does everyone else who's tried them) that Mana under your speakers (or in your case, stands) will tighten things up dramatically.
Rent a car and go on a weekend trip. Demo some Neat Critiques or Mystiques as well as other makes, whilst enjoying other parts of Holland. You can then sell or trade in your Fabers. I suppose the flaw with this plan is the inability to home dem, but after all these years you should be able to discern what will work and what won't, no?
Best of luck,
mike
ps have you tried the speakers along all possible walls? Spending a weekend totally rearranging your living room might help.
[This message was edited by Mike Sae on THURSDAY 18 April 2002 at 01:43.]
Posted on: 17 April 2002 by Alco
Thanks very much,Y'all for the info
quote:
ps have you tried the speakers along all possible walls?
That's my problem in my current room.
....I don't have another 'possible' wall.
I have a terrible room for a good setup.imo.
My previous little appartment in the centre of town,was perfect! o,well...I passed that point of no return..
I think I'll just wait for a little while and (try!) to be patient. I'll try to sell my SF's s/h and then buy me a s/h pair of Kan-1's at my Naim dealer. That oughtta do it.
greetings,
Alco
Posted on: 18 April 2002 by Robbie
Alco,
Your story doesn't end does it ?.You've got to make up your mind about what you want from the system you've got.With a CDX the problem can be in the CDP(too solve a lot of your problems you can think of buying a XPS).If I was in your shoes I would definitily buy a better amp than the Nait2 ,how "cute"it may be.
Trade the CDX for a cd-5,buy yourself a better Naim-amp(72/hi/140) and then you'll see a lot of the "problems" solved.In a good setup speakers are just a matter of taste.
Regards,Rob.
Posted on: 18 April 2002 by Andrew Randle
Robbie,
How will those proposals affect the in-room bass problem? Also, Alco does not have the kind of cash required for an XPS.
Going for a pair of Quad ESLs will be a much more effective solution.
Andrew
Andrew Randle
Currently in the "Linn Binn"
Posted on: 18 April 2002 by Robbie
Andrew,
The CDX without a XPS can sound quite harsh , IF the room is difficult in terms of acoustics.The CDX is ,IMHO, a stand alone player.to get the best out of it you must get a XPS,otherwise buy yourself a cd-5,cd3.5 or whatever.Thereby I do not believe that a nait-2 can drive the speakers in the way Alco wants it.Too make a long story short,try to solve the problem by getting the source(cdp + amps) right!
Regards,Rob.
Posted on: 18 April 2002 by Robbie
The CDX is,IMHO, NOT a stand alone player.
Regards,Rob.
Posted on: 18 April 2002 by Andrew Randle
From what I gather, Alco is suffering from too much bass in his room. Quad ESLs will correct this, while maintaining the PRaT characteristics of his Naim kit.
Also the extra space (from the large alcoves) behind the ESLs will suit the Quads. Placing the fronts of the ESLs in line with the front of the equipment rack (maybe with some toeing in) is likely to be the best configuration.
Andrew
Andrew Randle
Currently in the "Linn Binn"
Posted on: 18 April 2002 by Robbie
Andrew,
Too much bass can't be an issue.It's all a matter of control.You can only get GOOD,DEEP bass when the cdp + amps are capable of getting grip of the speakers.If you've got a blurry bass(acoustics?then you don't solve the problem buying speakers who give less bass(Quads).Sort the problem out first then buy speakers that will suit your taste,not the other way around,IMO.
Regards,Rob.
Posted on: 18 April 2002 by bob atherton
Hi Alco, I think it could be Kans or IBL's for you. No real hardship though!
Bob.
Posted on: 18 April 2002 by Lightkeeper
Alco
I don't know with what electronics you are heard Intro 2 in shop, but I can tell you one thing which is shure... I was listening Intro 2 with Nait 5 few days before and Nait 5 don't have enough power to control big bas driver of Intro 2.
It is easy to understand that your Nait 2 (I have it too, but with Epos 12) can't fight with Intro 2. It is widely known that room materials can affect the sound, but not in so enormuous catastrophic way. Intro 2, even as a smallest and cheapest Naim speaker can't work well with Naim integrated amplifier in same (comercially speaking) class. Another one is, Intro 2 is not a good speaker as some thinks and it was the worst Naim product. I think that SBL is where the fun begins, but you must have enough power.
If you don't wan't to change Nait 2, then you can get Quad ESL63, that speaker is miles better than thousands dynamic speakers. In the meantime you can try Epos 11 or 12, some Royd or Neat.
You have a good system, especially your CDX which is a damn good player and please don't listen those people which says that CDX sounds harsh without XPS. Your Nait 2 is a legendary amplifier and don't even think to sell it even you buy something bigger.
All in all, your main problem is power (as mine).
If you can, try to buy 72/HI/140 or without HI.
But even then Intro 2 wouldn't play in a class which your electronics do.
Good luck
Ozren
Posted on: 18 April 2002 by Alco
Thanks Y'all for all the advice,
Robbie, I've never heard my CDX sounding harsh.
My CD3.5 did though.
i got my first Nait-2 from a guy who had Quad ESL-63's! he wanted to get rid of the Nait because it couldn't drive the ESl's properly.
(also they're way too expensive,ugly and especially BIG, for my room)
I compared my Nait-2 with a 72/140 once, on my own Kan-II's. (without a Hicap though)
To my surprise (and dissapointment) the 72/140 didn't had any more control over the low-end,then my onw little Naity. (They did open up the mids a bit more,I must confess)
But the improvements weren't worth the extra cash,imho.
So,if my Nait-2 can drive kan's and I know they work in my room, I guess I'd better try to get me some Kan(alikes)'s again,and forget about this major blooper,eh
We'll see
Greetings,
Alco
Posted on: 18 April 2002 by garyi
Alco if you have the type of flooring where by flouting means its not attached to anything then check what I have done with the SBLs, I too suffered too much bass bouncing allover the place.
NOw that you have concluded the intros don't sit well on the floor get two granite tiles, (i got mine from a local DIY store for about 7 quid.)
Raise them off the floor with something, in this case some cheap cones avilable on the web and stick the intros on this little lot, for an outlay of about 20 quid its got to be worth a try for any speakers you may home demo
Posted on: 18 April 2002 by Frank Abela
There is no way a Nait2 is going to be able to drive a pair of Quad ESLs! No way...
The Intro2 is not that difficult to drive, even if it has an 8" driver. Alco, I know it's late, but did you try pulling out the Intro2's from ther wall? I've had good results in bass-heavy rooms by doing this when the bass was too overpowering..
Regards,
Frank.
All opinions are my own and do not reflect the opinion of any organisations I work for, except where this is stated explicitly.
Posted on: 18 April 2002 by Andrew Randle
quote:
i got my first Nait-2 from a guy who had Quad ESL-63's! he wanted to get rid of the Nait because it couldn't drive the ESl's properly.
OK, let's scratch the Quads. How about those Royd Edens? I recall you recently tried and liked them (or maybe I'm mixing you up with someone else). Anyway, Royds may well do the trick if you cannot find the Kans you like.
If you can get to a Linn store, then try the Katans. Linn also have a 30 day money back, no questions asked, policy. So theoretically you could order from a shop 200 miles away, have them delivered to your door and courier them back if you don't like them.
Katans are a much better loudspeaker than an unmodified Kan anyway.
Andrew
Andrew Randle
Currently in the "Linn Binn"
Posted on: 18 April 2002 by Alco
Hi Gary,
quote:
NOw that you have concluded the intros don't sit well on the floor get two granite tiles, (i got mine from a local DIY store for about 7 quid.)
Raise them off the floor with something, in this case some cheap cones avilable on the web and stick the intros on this little lot
maybe I haven't mentioned it but...this was exactly the way I demoed the Intro's yesterday!
With two marble/granite slabs and some small massive cones underneath. ...Didn't do the job.
I placed two 'for sale' ads on a Dutch HiFi-site, now it's time to wait first...
regards,
Alco
Posted on: 18 April 2002 by Greg Beatty
quote:
Trade the CDX for a cd-5,buy yourself a better Naim-amp(72/hi/140) and then you'll see a lot of the "problems" solved.
I *had* this system - albeit with a CD3 instead of 5. Not good - the 72/hi/140 will show up the lesser CD player big time.
The only way a change like this might address the problem is in that the CD5 has less bass (but what is there is less well controlled) than the CDX. The end result is very mullet though.
- GregB
Insert Witty Signature Line Here
Posted on: 18 April 2002 by Alco
Hi Reg,
No, I just sold my Kan's about 1 month ago. I have my laminatefloor since August,last year.
That's why I know how Kan's sound in my current room. They did sound a little better when I still had the carpetfloor (a little less forward), but on the laminate floor they sounded very good too.
then why did ya sell 'em,i hear you guys ask...
Greetings,
Alco
