When is cd officially dead?

quote:

There are a lot of people in the world who will never buy an HDX or NS01 that would immediately jump on a Naim DAC.

Naim don't sell products, they sell products that WORK.

It seems to me, reading between the lines of the posts of those who work at or represent Naim, that a stand-alone DAC fed by a device outside Naim's control still wouldn't do the job to Naim's satisfaction. Perhaps the very heavy hints that not all is as it seems in the computer world of 'ones and zeros' are true...

Remember the cost of developing a product is astronomical for a small manufacturer like Naim, and a mistake could mean the end of the company. Hence they're cautious, and stick to their guns.

They also have a habit of being right, when all the back-yarders say they're wrong.

CD dead? Nobody told me - can you ask me again in 20 years.

Naim do sell a DAC, in the Supernait.
Therefore, Naim cannot argue that DACs don't work and are a waste of time, because it means that they are implicitly saying that the Supernait doesn't work and is a waste of time.
So I think it's only a matter of time before they release a standalone DAC.
The issues for Naim are that: (a) it would impact their product placing and pricing, (b) none of the existing kit has a digital out, (c) it would free people up to buy non-Naim transports, and (d) there would be some egg on face!
I wonder if some time there will be a 4-box CD player option (transport+psu+dac+psu).

As for the life of CD, I think it will go on for a while yet...

quote:

Originally posted by prowla:
(d) there would be some egg on face!

Only on the faces of those who misinterpreted what we said about DACs - specifically in our approach to getting the best sound out of CD.

quote:

Naim cannot argue that DACs don't work and are a waste of time, because it means that they are implicitly saying that the Supernait doesn't work and is a waste of time.

They've not stated any such thing.

As Adam points out, and JV pointed it out years ago, that it was how to get the best sound out of CD.

Based on pure musical performance, Naim's approach has always been the leader for me. And I've heard dozens of brands over the past decade.

And I remember the 90s, when DAC/Transports were all the rage, and the CDi/CDX/CD3 etc trounced all those abominations too.

And then most manufacturers abandoned the DAC/transport concept altogether...

Maybe Naim know something about shifting MUSIC ones and zeros around that y'all don't...

Do try to acknowledge the fact that they're working on this FOR A LIVING (not as a 'hobby') and have at their disposal reasonably large amounts of coin, and most likely some very above-average electrical engineers, not to mention test equipment, years of actual experience etc etc to draw on.

To make the DAC discussion a bit more abstract:

Naim offers a Stageline to cater for people who want to connect any kind of turntable they fancy to their Naim system.

Naim offers a Headline to cater for people who want to connect any kind of headphone they fancy to their Naim system.

By this logic it would make sense if Naim would offer a DACline to....cater for people who want to connect any kind of digital source they fancy to their Naim system...

This is a different point of wether the outcome will be the same quality as a digital device devised by Naim itself.
Not every turntable is a Naimed LP12 yet the Stageline is offered nonetheless.
This is why in the other thread I mentioned there are two target groups: For the new generation Naim digtal sources and for a Naim DAC so people can hook up their digital source of chouce. Which, by the way, they are now doing in increasing numbers with non-Naim products anyway.

There are people who prefer the P-75 and other stages to the Stageline (hence the Superline). So it is not so that Naim has to come up with the ultimate DAC. People just want a Naim DAC product like the Stageline for looks, quality, cutomer service, system building and trust that it will sound half decent which I'm convinced it will.

On the technical side of things: Naim already has DAC boards in the SuperNait, the n-Vi and the AV2. Perhaps someone can explain to me how difficult it would then be to create a standalone DAC using (parts of) these boards.

Just my thoughts and logic. And I like Naim and think they're doing a great job. But a forum isn't there for nothing so I'm providing my input.

quote:

Originally posted by prowla:
Naim do sell a DAC, in the Supernait.
Therefore, Naim cannot argue that DACs don't work and are a waste of time, because it means that they are implicitly saying that the Supernait doesn't work and is a waste of time.
So I think it's only a matter of time before they release a standalone DAC.
The issues for Naim are that: (a) it would impact their product placing and pricing, (b) none of the existing kit has a digital out, (c) it would free people up to buy non-Naim transports, and (d) there would be some egg on face!
I wonder if some time there will be a 4-box CD player option (transport+psu+dac+psu).

As for the life of CD, I think it will go on for a while yet...

I don't agree with this. The DAC in the SuperNait is surely just a nice add on so that if you wish you have the facility to hook up your computer and play some of your MP3's etc you can. Nothing more than that. I highly dount wether Naim intend for people using a SuperNait to be using the DAC as their primary source (regardless of the quality of the digital source). The SNait is really intended to be used with a main source atleast as good as a CD5x/CDX2. The DAC is just a bonus IMO. I think this will be as close as Naim get to supplying a stand alone DAC. That will be hard to swallow for some, but I suspect that's the reality.

p.s. I have heard the SNait with a CDX2 & Rega Apollo Digital Out/SNait DAC. The CDX2 was WAY better!

quote:

Originally posted by -goat-:
The DAC in the SuperNait is surely just a nice add on so that if you wish you have the facility to hook up your computer and play some of your MP3's etc you can.

So what is wrong with that?

And why downplay it to people playing MP3s? Most of the threads mention people playing ALAC/FLAC/AIFF/WAV files.

Uncompressed/lossless files, a good Firewire or ethernet interface, a good digital chord (Chord, Naim) and a decent DAC will go a long way in a pleasant listening experience.

Just like a Rega P3/10X5 isn't on par with a CD5x/202/200 system for instance. There are members running this because it can still offer satisfaction and fun in such systems. Naim has the Stageline to accomodate that.

quote:

Originally posted by -goat-:
p.s. I have heard the SNait with a CDX2 & Rega Apollo Digital Out/SNait DAC. The CDX2 was WAY better!

Of course, it is 4x more expensive.
If you want CDX2 sound in carrier-less edition at the comparable price point there's now the ...HDX...
Looks like Naim actually gave it some thinking!

quote:

Originally posted by joe90:

quote:

There are a lot of people in the world who will never buy an HDX or NS01 that would immediately jump on a Naim DAC.

Naim don't sell products, they sell products that WORK.

It seems to me, reading between the lines of the posts of those who work at or represent Naim, that a stand-alone DAC fed by a device outside Naim's control still wouldn't do the job to Naim's satisfaction. Perhaps the very heavy hints that not all is as it seems in the computer world of 'ones and zeros' are true...

Remember the cost of developing a product is astronomical for a small manufacturer like Naim, and a mistake could mean the end of the company. Hence they're cautious, and stick to their guns.

They also have a habit of being right, when all the back-yarders say they're wrong.

Not for the first time your slavish attitude to all things Naim is blurring the issue.

Naim use high quality DACs that are bought and applied to their CD players. All that is required is for the same to be supplied separately. Nobody is asking them to compromise the usual quality of build and power supply etc.

It's not a new product FFS.

It begins to look like a high quality DAC might hurt CD player sales - if, as can be the case, the effect of the transport is not as significant as the DAC.

Steve

quote:

Originally posted by -goat-:
The DAC in the SuperNait is surely just a nice add on so that if you wish you have the facility to hook up your computer and play some of your MP3's etc you can. Nothing more than that.

Actually I want to use it to connect up my Sky+ box and maybe my DVD player. Internet radio would be nice as well

quote:

Originally posted by daddycool:
People just want a Naim DAC product like the Stageline for looks, quality, cutomer service, system building and trust that it will sound half decent which I'm convinced it will.

On the technical side of things: Naim already has DAC boards in the SuperNait, the n-Vi and the AV2. Perhaps someone can explain to me how difficult it would then be to create a standalone DAC using (parts of) these boards.

Just my thoughts and logic. And I like Naim and think they're doing a great job. But a forum isn't there for nothing so I'm providing my input.

I agree with everything you have said.

I'd like a Naim DAC because (a) It would fit in with the rest of my Naim equipment, both sonically an aesthetically (b) I would rather support Naim than give the money to some other manufacturer and (c) I really think Naim are shooting themselves in the wallet with this issue.

As you have mentioned, Naim already have the DAC boards. It can't be that difficult to incorporate this technology into a standalone unit.

The real irony is that a Naim DAC unit could entice brand new customers to Naim and in turn up their sales of everything else.

Jack

quote:

Originally posted by joe90:
Do try to acknowledge the fact that they're working on this FOR A LIVING (not as a 'hobby') and have at their disposal reasonably large amounts of coin, and most likely some very above-average electrical engineers, not to mention test equipment, years of actual experience etc etc to draw on.

I firmly believe that it is a business reason, not a technical reason, why Naim don't sell a standalone DAC.

Yes - the business of ensuring superb sonic performance.

quote:

Originally posted by prowla:
I firmly believe that it is a business reason, not a technical reason, why Naim don't sell a standalone DAC.

Yes, as in fear they might as well scrap the CD5i-2 after the DACs introduction.

Understandable fear but not correct IMO, then again, I don't work at Naim.

quote:

Originally posted by Jack Barron:
I agree with everything you have said.

I'd like a Naim DAC because (a) It would fit in with the rest of my Naim equipment, both sonically an aesthetically (b) I would rather support Naim than give the money to some other manufacturer and (c) I really think Naim are shooting themselves in the wallet with this issue.

As you have mentioned, Naim already have the DAC boards. It can't be that difficult to incorporate this technology into a standalone unit.

The real irony is that a Naim DAC unit could entice brand new customers to Naim and in turn up their sales of everything else.

Jack

And I agree whith everything you have said here

quote:

Originally posted by daddycool:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by -goat-:
The DAC in the SuperNait is surely just a nice add on so that if you wish you have the facility to hook up your computer and play some of your MP3's etc you can.

So what is wrong with that?
QUOTE]

Nothing. If I had a SuperNait I'd probably use the DAC too. It just seems like some people hook up their digital source to the DAC, leave it at that and then seem to think they are getting the best out of the SNAIT which they are clearly not. One argument that seems to come up here a bit is that since Naim have offered a DAC in the SNait they may aswell just go ahead and offer a stand alone version. I guess my point is that this reasoning isn't valid because Naim haven't supplied the SNait DAC to be used as a primary source, it's merely an add-on.

It seems pretty clear that Naim approach to high quality digital replay involves a lot more than simply throwing a transport together with a top notch DAC and planting the Naim logo on it. I think the excellent performance of the Naim CDP's has a lot to do with what happens up stream from the DAC ie. manual loading drawer, puck, infra-red absobing paint on the inside of the CD drawer, attention to how the components case effects the performance of the electronics etc etc. Why would they throw all that out the window and release a stand alone DAC only for the replay to be messed up by the inferior digital source that people will inevitably use. Basially, I doubt wether you could get true Naim sound from PC DAC system and I think this is the crux of the problem and the main reason Naim won't ever make a stand alone DAC. But they new all this a long time ago when they realised that it was far better to separate the power supply from the Transport/DAC. Whats changed?

It is stated on the Naim website that the HDX will rip the CD and then go back over it once or twice more (can't remember which) and correct any errors. Does your PC do that? The quality of the rip is clearly an issue. Although I guess it's a little different if the digital file is a high-quality download ie. the recoring hasn't gone through the write to CD... rip off CD process, but as far as I'm aware we're not quite there yet. Anyway, it seems the HDX will cover both options and sound fantastic too!

In my view, it would be extremely short-sighted for Naim to produce merely a DAC. It would be far more sensible to produce a streaming device. Sure, it may have digital inputs, and possibly analogue inputs, but it needs to be networked and provide internet streaming.

This gives Naim and NaimNet a direct competitor to the Linn DS products. It also allows non-NaimNet customers to be a little 21st Century without going the NaimNet route.

quote:

Originally posted by Frank Abela:
In my view, it would be extremely short-sighted for Naim to produce merely a DAC. It would be far more sensible to produce a streaming device. Sure, it may have digital inputs, and possibly analogue inputs, but it needs to be networked and provide internet streaming.

This gives Naim and NaimNet a direct competitor to the Linn DS products. It also allows non-NaimNet customers to be a little 21st Century without going the NaimNet route.

A very interesting point, Frank. But would that not be a device at the higher price point of the Linn Sneaky product?

Then again, not making a simple stand-alone DAC would not put Stanley Beresford out of Naimee business. Only fair as he has done such a great job.

Perhaps Naim could do both, in the way there is a Stageline and a Superline?

quote:

Originally posted by joe90:
Yes CD is dead.

Recently we have had ISPs complaining about the popularity of the BBC's iPlayer and it's effect on their servers. So, how will the ISPs cope if we all ditch CD and start downloading FLAC files?

Get better ISPs? George

ISPs - Internet S* Providers - never could remember what the S stood for

quote:

Not for the first time your slavish attitude to all things Naim is blurring the issue.

Naim use high quality DACs that are bought and applied to their CD players. All that is required is for the same to be supplied separately. Nobody is asking them to compromise the usual quality of build and power supply etc.

It's not a new product FFS.

Steve

The WAY that the DAC and transport is PUT TOGETHER in a Naim CD player is WHY a Naim CD player works the way it does!

Take away either part of the equation and it won't be a Naim CD player any more.

And how do you know that Naim don't fiddle around with the DAC when they purchase it from their supplier? It's not unheard of for Naim to state that they even write their own software!!!

I'm going to ignore the 'slavish' attitude comment for the sake of reason discussion.

quote:

ISPs - Internet S* Providers - never could remember what the S stood for

Neither can most of them!!! shit perhaps?

quote:

And how do you know that Naim don't fiddle around with the DAC when they purchase it from their supplier? It's not unheard of for Naim to state that they even write their own software!!!

I'm going to ignore the 'slavish' attitude comment for the sake of reason discussion.

Joe,


Just like the Philips transport mechanisms, the DACs are bought in. I think Stereophile mentioned Burr-Brown PCM 1704 DACs in the 555.

A very large part of getting digital sound 'right' is actually in the quality of the analogue stage. Whether the source of the digits is off an optical disc, or not. Very difficult to establish if you can't test it.

This stage is where "up market" manufacturers like Naim will continue to do well and is presumably a big part of why the prospect of the HDX is attracting so much attention.

Anyway, the point being that those Burr-Brown DACs can be housed and powered to similarly high standards externally. The risk, of course, is more a commercial one to the CD players.

A very high quality DAC when fed with either a high quality CD transport, or other digital source would compete directly with current CD only players in the same stable. I can understand the commercial dilemma to an extent, but I would say build the best quality DAC and let us, as customers, decide how much CD replay is compromised or not.

Given that people are already voting with their wallets, I continue to think this is short sighted. But given that people would not have imagined a Supernait - there is hope.

The comment 'slavish' is borne out of frustration that you seem unwilling to accept that technical reasons might be being offered up when the commercial concern is the main obstacle - it happens in business. That might be good enough for the faithful but to others, it seems odd given that a similar case could have been made for not producing the SuperNait - i.e. "it would compromise our amp".

Steve

quote:

Originally posted by joe90:
And how do you know that Naim don't fiddle around with the DAC .