When is cd officially dead?

quote:

but I would say build the best quality DAC and let us, as customers, decide how much CD replay is compromised or not.

Hmmm...

Bit like asking Ferrari to allow you to take delivery of one of their cars and shove your own engine in afterwards. Not likely they're going to want to allow that. You might be a complete muppet for all they know...

Probably best if you go to another brand, cause Naim probably takes the same attitude.

Looney!

Smile.

quote:

Originally posted by joe90:

quote:

but I would say build the best quality DAC and let us, as customers, decide how much CD replay is compromised or not.

Hmmm...

Bit like asking Ferrari to allow you to take delivery of one of their cars and shove your own engine in afterwards. Not likely they're going to want to allow that. You might be a complete muppet for all they know...

Probably best if you go to another brand, cause Naim probably takes the same attitude.

Nothing like a good analogy, and this is indeed nothing like a good analogy.

If you're going to miss the point, let's do it within the subject. Just for clarification, the parts we are discussing are not made in-house.

If I want a DAC I will have to go to another brand, as with everyone else (who doesn't want a SNait). That's the whole point.

If you have no need of a DAC, why bother comment?

Steve

quote:

Nothing like a good analogy, and this is indeed nothing like a good analogy.

Actually it's a very good analogy - Naim obviously don't want to make a separate DAC as they slavishly refuse to allow a product to go out into the marketplace in circumstances where they have not been able to develop it fully within the Naim framework.

quote:

If you're going to miss the point, let's do it within the subject. Just for clarification, the parts we are discussing are not made in-house.

I agree with the fact that the partts are not made in-house - what I think you're missing is that Naim like to fiddle around with things. When I look inside a Naim CD player, it doesn't look like a Philips to me.

But maybe my slavishness blurs my vision...Yes that'll be it. How can we possibly acknowledge that Naim know a bit about what they're doing?

quote:

If I want a DAC I will have to go to another brand, as with everyone else (who doesn't want a SNait). That's the whole point.

And you're well within your rights to do so. Good luck and let me know how it goes.

quote:

I agree with the fact that the partts are not made in-house - what I think you're missing is that Naim like to fiddle around with things. When I look inside a Naim CD player, it doesn't look like a Philips to me.

But maybe my slavishness blurs my vision...Yes that'll be it. How can we possibly acknowledge that Naim know a bit about what they're doing?

Your vision is blurred by the fact that you only want a CD player, not a DAC. So presumably have no interest in streaming music, so why comment?

Your views that only Naim can 'fiddle' as you put it, with off the shelf parts and get it right; or choose the right cable; or make a T shirt - are already known. There are similar fanboys who think the same about Linn, but hey.

Steve

The following link probably gives an idea as to why Naim are not interested in the external computer as a front end source. lessloss

Note that the company (Lessloss) selected the same Burr Brown DAC's as Naim did for the 555. Also note that Lessloss don't sell a front end - so no reason to have a commercial bias in either direction (computer or CD).

Does this argue for the superiority of CD? Not necessarily, not if Naim have address these issues, and others in the HDX.

BTW - don't have any clue if LessLoss is actually good - just doing some background research triggered by the passionate arguments on this forum.

quote:

Originally posted by Steve S1:
Nothing like a good analogy, and this is indeed nothing like a good analogy.

If you're going to miss the point, let's do it within the subject. Just for clarification, the parts we are discussing are not made in-house.

...so why comment? / ... why bother comment?

I think Joe90s analogy is spot on.
That Naim use components from other manufacturers is irrelevant.

What Naim does with all the components to create a piece of equipment is the key,
& it's a classic case of the whole being greater than the sum of the parts IMHO.

I have no doubt Naim would market a stand alone DAC if it performed well.
The fact they haven't tells us all we need to know.

This is a public forum; if you don't want comments stick to email.

quote:

Originally posted by paremus:
The following link probably gives an idea as to why Naim are not interested in the external computer as a front end source. lessloss

Note that the company (Lessloss) selected the same Burr Brown DAC's as Naim did for the 555. Also note that Lessloss don't sell a front end - so no reason to have a commercial bias in either direction (computer or CD).

Does this argue for the superiority of CD? Not necessarily, not if Naim have address these issues, and others in the HDX.

BTW - don't have any clue if LessLoss is actually good - just doing some background research triggered by the passionate arguments on this forum.

A superb article that fully describes the jitter problem, and the issues of clocks and slaving. It also explodes a few myths about cd players in the process !

quote:

I have no doubt Naim would market a stand alone DAC if it performed well.
The fact they haven't tells us all we need to know.

Another objective view.

Nobody is saying anything about the CD players - your investment is safe.

The lack of a stand alone DAC may well owe more to it's competitive position in the range.

If you are not interested in streaming, it doesn't apply to you either of course.

quote:

Nobody is saying anything about the CD players - your investment is safe.

Steve – have you forgotten the title of the thread?

However the only person talking about CD players here is you Steve,
& the value of investments may go down as well as up so you are wrong there too!

I am interested in HiFi, music & streaming; when there is a product worthy of consideration.

quote:

Originally posted by thesherrif:


A superb article that fully describes the jitter problem, and the issues of clocks and slaving. It also explodes a few myths about cd players in the process !

Good article, did you see the "Myths" section?

Such as:

quote:

You need a good transport to hear the best quality possible.

Apparently this is -

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Nonsense! What you need is any average transport with a digital output. If no digital volume control or processing is present, they all have the same digital information coming out of the digital output.

Steve

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Originally posted by 555:
The only person talking about CD players here is you Steve,

Sorry mate - you are misreading. I'm interested in a DAC. More specifically, I'm interested in releasing those fabulous Burr-Brown DACs to use for streaming.

Steve

I know you are interested in a DAC!
Why don't you get in touch with Burr-Brown?

quote:

Originally posted by 555:
Tell me something I don't know!

So what's your point?

I have already made my point.

quote:

I have no doubt Naim would market a stand alone DAC if it performed well.
The fact they haven't tells us all we need to know.

Sorry, if this was it. Then we disagree. That's fine.

quote:

Originally posted by paremus:
The following link probably gives an idea as to why Naim are not interested in the external computer as a front end source. lessloss

A very interesting article/website paremus, thanks!

But, if I read it correctly, somewhere they state that their DAC in USB mode actually sounds better than a conventional CD player/DAC set-up...Just not as good as a CD player in slave mode with their DAC in master mode.

All in all I think a USB or preferably a Firewire conversion to S/PDIF, or a streaming device like AE and SB with S/PDIF output - together with a nice DAC can yield nice results. The level will be a bit below the CD5i-2 probably, but the trade-off/win is more convenience.

So why not put the DAC boards Naim already has in a Stageline case and put it on the market? I'd rather buy the Naim product than the Stello/RA product if the price point of the DAC/iSupply is the same as the RA DAC1.

Again, it's an extra market, now covered by Beresford, Benchmark, Lavry, Stello/RA and thus a different market from the HDX and NS products.

quote:

So why not put the DAC boards Naim already has in a Stageline case and put it on the market? I'd rather buy the Naim product than the Stello/RA product if the price point of the DAC/iSupply is the same as the RA DAC1.

Again, it's an extra market, now covered by Beresford, Benchmark, Lavry/ Stello/RA and thus a different market from the HDX and NS products.

Absolutely agree DC, given that the DACs are a huge part of the CD player's success, I cannot think of a good reason why not, and there is every possiblity that these customers would go further into the range later on.

Steve

can't help thinking that a Naim DAC would be a shot in the foot. Too much competition and a bit white flag waving imho.

Interesting point, thesherrif, could you elaborate please?

How do you see the DAC in the SN (which you own I believe), The n-Vi and the AV2?

Would you rather have a DAC option for the pre-amps? e.i. a NAC122x/DAC or no further Naim DAC activity at all?

Just curious.

quote:

Originally posted by daddycool:
Interesting point, thesherrif, could you elaborate please?

How do you see the DAC in the SN (which you own I believe), The n-Vi and the AV2?

Would you rather have a DAC option for the pre-amps? e.i. a NAC122x/DAC or no further Naim DAC activity at all?

Just curious.

Good questions daddycool....

I reckon that Naim ain't stupid and saw the writing on the wall re how music would be distributed in the future. (See the news today re Def Leppard?) They would have worked out that the music cd was dead, and thus so were cd players, and that music from hard disc ( via ripping or downloads) would be the future. They would also know that sky boxes have an audio digital output, and so do dvd players and that sound out of televisions is rubbish. They would have done their marketing and seen where the future profit would come from.

The Supernait with it's built in DAC occupies a brilliant position in the market becasue it is going to appeal not just to the vinyl and cd spinners (and if it doesn't then who cares?) but to a whole new market of digital output box users who want a decent sound ! It gives Naim a whole new edge and enables them to position themselves in a systems market rather than a product market. Now, I bought my supernait to be the base building block for a new set up. Previously I had a Nait 3 but that won't go to waste. It will go to my daughter, along with a cheap but incredibly good Beresford DAC, to form the guts of her itunes based system.

The Beresford DAC is a briliant piece of kit and there is absolutely no way that Naim could compete with that. A standalone DAC will simply give Naim a headache it doesn't need. It will be compared to every other DAC out there and quite possibly not come out on top, and even it it did it wouldn't last. Naim customer service would be overrun by queries and questions from the world and his neighbour wanting to connect their i something or digi whatsit to the Naim DAC. Imagine the cost compared to the price of the DAC!

As to a Naim standalone DAC to attach to existing Naim amplifiers....... what for? !! It's a brutal world and Naim owe nothing to customers with existing systems. Why should they? They are in business to satisfy their shareholders, full stop. The Naim business MUST grow, or else it will die.

Finally I think that Naim must be patting themselves on the back for having this forum. The marketing input they are getting from existing users and new users must be phenomenal. Look at how many threads are discussing the digital world more and more, and despite a few spats between the dinosaurs, luddites, and the new kids on the block, the sheer vibrancy is quite amazing. Long may it go on

It's good to have you running Naim and explaining our "decisions".