When is cd officially dead?

quote:

Originally posted by Adam Meredith:
It's good to have you running Naim and explaining our "decisions".

no problem, who should I invoice?

Adam, thesherrif did start his post with "I reckon" and later on added "I think".

I found it not difficult reading the post in that fashion, it's an opinion.

Having an obligatory IMHO at the beginning and end of every sentence doesn't enhance readability.

quote:

Originally posted by daddycool:
Adam, thesherrif did start his post with "I reckon" and later on added "I think".

I found it not difficult reading the post in that fashion, it's an opinion.

Having an obligatory IMHO at the beginning and end of every sentence doesn't enhance readability.

ta for that Daddycool, but sarky bitchy comments don't bother me. Probably having a bad day.......

Mmmh, leaves me wondering.

During the two years in my life that I worked in France (Paris '86 & Lyon '03) I was happy everyday...

Even more so during the numerous holidays I spent there.

France does that to you, it's a great place. How can one have a bad day there?

Example: One has to love Paris' new bike plan Velib'

quote:

It's good to have you running Naim and explaining our "decisions".

LOL!

quote:

Originally posted by daddycool:
To make the DAC discussion a bit more abstract:

Naim offers a Stageline to cater for people who want to connect any kind of turntable they fancy to their Naim system.

Naim offers a Headline to cater for people who want to connect any kind of headphone they fancy to their Naim system.

By this logic it would make sense if Naim would offer a DACline to....cater for people who want to connect any kind of digital source they fancy to their Naim system...

This is a different point of wether the outcome will be the same quality as a digital device devised by Naim itself.
Not every turntable is a Naimed LP12 yet the Stageline is offered nonetheless.
This is why in the other thread I mentioned there are two target groups: For the new generation Naim digtal sources and for a Naim DAC so people can hook up their digital source of chouce. Which, by the way, they are now doing in increasing numbers with non-Naim products anyway.

There are people who prefer the P-75 and other stages to the Stageline (hence the Superline). So it is not so that Naim has to come up with the ultimate DAC. People just want a Naim DAC product like the Stageline for looks, quality, cutomer service, system building and trust that it will sound half decent which I'm convinced it will.

On the technical side of things: Naim already has DAC boards in the SuperNait, the n-Vi and the AV2. Perhaps someone can explain to me how difficult it would then be to create a standalone DAC using (parts of) these boards.

Just my thoughts and logic. And I like Naim and think they're doing a great job. But a forum isn't there for nothing so I'm providing my input.

I quite agree with all this.

In fact I think Naim could quite sensibly market for the two products that splitting the SuperNait would result in:

- SuperDAC - as discussed
- Nait8i/SuperNait Jnr/Son of SuperNait, ie a 2 x 80W integrated, no DAC

With due respect, you sound very definitive but you may not be all that familiar with computer based audio:

quote:

I think the excellent performance of the Naim CDP's has a lot to do with what happens up stream from the DAC ie. manual loading drawer, puck, infra-red absobing paint on the inside of the CD drawer

But you just highlighted the problem of CD playback and the benefits of LAN client based or hard disk based music player. There simply are no issues related with reading off the CD physical media. Which Naim and others made heroic efforts to compensate with high end players.

quote:

It is stated on the Naim website that the HDX will rip the CD and then go back over it once or twice more (can't remember which) and correct any errors. Does your PC do that?

Yes this is no secret, your PC has been doing that for many years. In fact as far as I know this whole idea came from PC based free software like EAC(Exact Audio Copy) which reads off the discs many times over if erroes are found.

quote:

the recoring hasn't gone through the write to CD... rip off CD process, but as far as I'm aware we're not quite there yet. Anyway, it seems the HDX will cover both options and sound fantastic too!

We are very much there. In fact, CDs ripped and rewritten using EAC are often times better than the source if they are ripped correctly.

quote:

Originally posted by 555:
I know you are interested in a DAC!
Why don't you get in touch with Burr-Brown?

Lets just agree to differ, if that is the limit of substance you can offer. Your view:-

quote:

I have no doubt Naim would market a stand alone DAC if it performed well.
The fact they haven't tells us all we need to know.

is not backed up with anything other than blind faith. Presumably turntables are OK even though Naim don't make one?

Steve

Did you really need seven hours to come up with that?

Naim doesn't offer a stand alone DAC,
so if that's what you want I was thinking that contacting Burr-Brown to find out who does is a way forward; quite reasonable IMHO.

Yes I have faith in Naim, but it's not blind.
TTs aren't for me, although I understand from those who indulge the Naim Uni-pivot tone-arm, SuperLine Reference phono amplifier, Armageddon turntable power supply, etc are very good.

As for your contribution to this thread MEOW!

OK, I see your rapier wit has me on the ropes....

"There is no market for a Naim stand alone DAC."



Your picture link does not work for me - removed.
A.R.M.

This whole topic is up the spout. The whole question of the future of 16-bit/44.1k recordings is academic in the face of the availability of recordings at higher bit-depths and higher sample rates (the former having a more significant impact on the sound IMHO).

CD replay can never be better than the severely restricted 16-bit/44.1k data it contains - CD deserves to die for this reason alone.

A decent Firewire DAC streaming the same recording at 24-bit/96k will outperform a CD playing on any source by a country mile - anyone who argues otherwise simply hasn't heard what a high-resolution recording sounds like.

Since DVD-A, which can cope admirably with 24/96, has (in)explicably failed to attract the support of either the music or the hi-fi industry, laser-based transports spinning physical media are history. This is unfortunate for those of us who like the whole tactile/physical process of 'selecting and putting on a disc' but it's the reality.

We need to get with the program and make sure the really important bit of this whole circus survives, ie it is a crime to be releasing music in anything other than 24-bit/96k format. This is where audiophiles such as us ought to be contributing to the debate, not propping up more futile discussion about inferior and out-dated 'CD-quality' replay, which a very few companies like Naim have heroically pushed far beyond what could possibly have been expected of such a flawed source (at a price!).

I come from a pro-audio background and the facts I know about digital replay are as follows: (much of this is backed up by the excellent link someone posted to the lessloss.com article):

1. AES-EBU XLR cable is a far superior carrier
2. Separating the audio content from the clock yeilds far superior results
3. Clock is unidirectional and is usually carried on a 75ohm BNC cable
4. As soon as you add more than two boxes to a digital system you need a clock distributor (rather than daisy-chaining)
5. A bespoke clock-distribution unit will usually improve the performance of all components downstream

If was Naim I'd be taking a good hard look at the pro-audio industry for some pointers on high-end boxes that 'do digital' to the sort of quality they'd be aiming at, ie Lavry, Prism, Weiss, Benchmark, Metric Halo to name but a few...

James,

I agree with much that you say here. But, given that some CD recordings are outstanding - it would suggest that the mastering and transfer of the rest has not lived up to what actually is possible within the format as it stands.

Do you think that improving the capacity of the format, or developing new formats with greater possibilities will still face this problem?

For example, I think many people on the forum will have CDs that are outstanding in sound quality - Nils Lofgren's Acoustic Live or Chris Jones' Roadhouse CDs are two that spring to mind. If all CDs had been mastered to that quality - we would have a very different market I'm sure.

Steve

quote:

This is unfortunate for those of us who like the whole tactile/physical process of 'selecting and putting on a disc'

Still available with vinyl...

quote:

it is a crime to be releasing music in anything other than 24-bit/96k format

...vinyl is a crime? In a few years, when 24/96 turns out not to be good enough either, you'll be telling us 24/192 is the way to go, no doubt

quote:

This is where audiophiles such as us ought to be heading

...no, analogue is where we should be heading. Along with many bands, studios, mastering engineers etc etc

Hey, I'm not trying to start another vinyl war - yawn! I agree that vinyl sounds lovely and is very pleasing/flattering to listen to. But it simply isn't part of the equation when it comes to accurate sonic reproduction, and as a physical medium that's increasingly expensive to duplicate and distribute it suffers from exactly the same future viability problems facing CD/DVD etc, which is what this discussion is about.

quote:

it simply isn't part of the equation when it comes to accurate sonic reproduction,

Very apt description of digital, I think. Reminds me of those 1980s Japanese amp specs with 0.000002% THD. Sounded bloody awful but hey, weren't they just so accurate...

quote:

Originally posted by James Lehmann:
I come from a pro-audio background ...

Me too, & as we both know the reality is horses for courses;
domestic & professional equipment have different functions.

At home we are seeking to enjoy the music so accurate sonic reproduction isn't the goal, it's enjoyability. In our professional installations accuracy & analytical performance are required, but they are fatiguing to the listener when compared to a musical domestic system.

The mainstream Music Biz don't want to release 24-bit/96k samples because of the fear of piracy. I wish it wasn't so, but this seems unlikely to change in the near future.

quote:

Originally posted by Steve S1:
James,

I agree with much that you say here. But, given that some CD recordings are outstanding - it would suggest that the mastering and transfer of the rest has not lived up to what actually is possible within the format as it stands.

Do you think that improving the capacity of the format, or developing new formats with greater possibilities will still face this problem?

I agree Steve.

I try disc after disc on my system and there are so very few that really sound good, especially through the lens of a revealing Naim system!

It takes so much skill to make a CD sound good - very few people have it. So to address your second point, I think what one could say is that it's harder to screw up a recording that is both recorded and delivered in 24/96; the increased bit-depth and higher sample rate, along with the much improved S/N ratio, distortion, noise-floor and headroom benefits this affords, are much more forgiving of less than top-notch (ie George Massenburg/Bob Katz) level mixing and mastering.

I think if we'd dumped CD's and moved to DVD-A wholesale 10 years ago there would be a bucket-load of much better sounding albums floating about. But all is not lost as a lot of this music still exists in 24/96 format, and could be re-released at any time by the labels that hold the masters. Problem is they don't know how to market it - DVD-A is dead and they don't want to put it out online. End result - customer loses out yet again.

I actually own albums I've purchased FOUR TIMES OVER - cassette / original CD / remastered CD / DVD-A

And yet what rewards have I seen from the record industry for my loyalty - apart from the nightmare of copy-protection and over-priced media, sweet FA!

quote:

Originally posted by Steve S1:
OK, I see your rapier wit has me on the ropes....

"There is no market for a Naim stand alone DAC."

How does failing to 'borrow' an image help to make your point Steve S1?

quote:

there would be a bucket-load of much better sounding albums floating about.

There are already a bucket load of good sounding albums, almost exclusively recorded in analogue and mostly available on vinyl...


Please explain to all us misguided lovers of inaccurate sound why pro audio guys are clamouring for reel-to-reel tape recorders to bounce their digital recordings off...

quote:

Originally posted by 555:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve S1:
OK, I see your rapier wit has me on the ropes....

"There is no market for a Naim stand alone DAC."

How does failing to 'borrow' an image help to make your point Steve S1?

Wondered where it went.

In search of a stand alone DAC perhaps?

We can have this discussion again, when Naim release it (possibly with streaming, but preferably not), and power supply options.

"abbydog" - you are carping at the wrong target.

As a studio musician I regularly shove my pristine recordings through valves and other analog horrors, all for the greater good and because I like the sound. I'm well aware of the differences and advantages/disadvantages of accuracy vs enjoyment in recording, mixing, mastering and listening to music - I have no need or desire to explain myself to you or anyone else.

I am trying to contribute to what I understand to be a discussion about the future of digital recording media - to simply dig your heels in and say "it's analog, vinyl is better" misses the point and fails to move the dialog on in any useful way. Even if I thought I had anything original to contribute to the endless war of "Analog vs Digital", which I don't, I would be doing so in a different thread, not this one. I doubt you'll elicit further comment from me on this.

quote:

all for the greater good and because I like the sound.

So you'd sooner be happy than right - so would I

I remain unconcerned if it is accurate, I simply want to know if sounds good and if does then that's the way I like it.

I'll still need a good CD player for many years to play my CDs (even if I never bought another one) and a very good record player to play my records.

It'll be a shame if CD dies as I'll probably stop buying new music - most isn't available on vinyl (hmm, that would save me lots of money ) - still plenty of great music around that's easily available on CD and vinyl so I'm covered for a few years.

quote:

Originally posted by Steve S1:
A.R.M.

Adam "The remover" Meredith.