Man with no Naim..
Posted by: Steveandkate on 20 March 2001
As a man with no Naim, but having heard the systems at the Bristol show, I am about to start the auditioning malarky...
So, my questions, which may well be pretty stupid, are : What dealers in or near London can anyone recomend ( I need plenty of time and guidance) and also, what shall I buy (said they might be stupid...) - I have around £5000 as a starter, but would rather spend more if it meant less by way of upgrade trade-in loss as time goes by.
The new, yet-to-be-released speaker is high on the list, as it would fit in well with my house and sounded wonderful, and a CD player and amp would push my £5000 into touch ( I could go up to around £7500, but don't tell Kate..)
So, what can you tell me, and lastly, judging by the amount of topics and replies, do any of you work, or just sit in-front of your pc's with the hi fi on..?
Thanks,
Steve
If you intend to upgrade in the future then I would suggest that you don't mess about and go for:
CDX, 82, 180, +new Naim speakers. This would come in at under £8k (I know over budget but read on...) and would mean that you could enjoy some massive upgrades in the future by buying an XPS for your CDX and a Supercap for the 82, both achieved without any trade ins. If you want to spend less then don't spend £2k on the new Naim speakers, go for something cheaper like the Neat Elite.
If you want to stick to a lower budget then get:
CDX, 102, 180. Adding an XPS to the CDX and a hicap, which can easily be bought second hand, to the 102 would provide substantial upgrades without the need to trade anything in.
John
Looks like you will need that £7.5k if you're looking at those new Naim loudspeakers - they're priced at around £2k.
Here's my the best sounding and best value system you can get for your money:
CD Player: Naim CDS2 £5900
The amplifier and loudspeakers can be sourced for another £1k.
In other words, find a good low priced amplifier and speakers that will let the qualities of the CDS2 shine through. For example:
Naim Nait 5 (£799)
Linn Majik (£695)
Then the loudspeakers... you can buy a pair of Linn Kan IIs if you don't mind buying 2nd hand (the results will be far better than you expect). They are one of the best loudspeakers you can buy and only cost about £250-300 including their mandatory stands.
With this system you will:
1) Have the best CD player out there - with no need for expensive upgrades. If you compromise on the CD player, you compromise the sound.
2) Have an excellent amplifier (good enough for the CDS2) that can easily and cost effectively upgraded in future
3) Have one of the best and most musical loudspeakers ever!!! I will understand if you don't like the idea of buying 2nd hand speakers, because you probably have not heard them.
If you still don't like the idea of buying 2nd hand loudspeakers to get the best sound for your money, then the alternative speakers would be Linn Katans (£635) or Naim Intro 2 (£760). Remember to also buy some good cable - either Linn K20 or Naim NAC-A5 (roughly £70 of outlay).
So, you would end up with:
Naim CDS2+(Linn Majik || Naim CD5)+(Linn Katan||Naim Intro2||Linn Kan2)
Andrew
Andrew Randle
2B || !2B;
4 ^ = ?;
don't forget that you will need to budget for a rack & speaker cables.
You may find that your dealer has s/h amps & speakers for sale.
If you're spending nearly £6K on a CD player you may find you dealer willing to help with the installation of s/h amps & speakers also.
You will certainly find the help of a dealer to install the whole system of great benefit to the results you get from it.
cheers, Martin
Sure, the proposals above would leave you with the best CD player known. But...
There is this idea of balance. The CDS II is one of the very best. But there is this heretic idea of the source being important but not everything. So, as mentiond before, how about a CDX, giving the signal to a 102, amplify it with a 180 0r 250 to a Credo or SBL or a different speaker of that range (Cabasse, B&W, Vienna Acoustics or even T+A or Burmester); it leaves you with a part of the budget for stand, cable or mains spur and the lovely idea of future upgrade (82 - 52 - Hicap/Supercap - XPS - NPSC) with the knowledge and the hearing experience of a well balanced, nearly perfect chain/system.
Think of it
happy listening
Guid
I heard the Linn Majik & Naim Nait with Linn Katans last weekend. The Katans are good looking and enoyable speakers. They easily resolved differences between the Majik & the Nait. The Source was far more modest than a CDS2, a Linn Genki which had more to give than the Majik and the Nait passed on.
I've had the hifi bug for 25 years, I subscribe to the idea that the source is very important, I certainly feel that the Speakers are the least important element. If I had your budget, I would be looking to spend 80% on source and amplification and the remainder on speakers. My personal feeling is that equal qmounts on CD and Amps is a good idea, but if push comes to shove, I would lean to a bit more on the amplifiers than the CD player, say something like 40-45% CD and 60-55% amps. In anycase you're going to spend sometime listening to varous combinations, so enjoy your search, make sure Kate decides with you, that way you'll have no problems with exceeding the budget.
Then I'd find another budget for the cables etc 
Peter
CDX/XPS, Nac 112,Nap150, Flatcap 2, Neat Elite/Naim Credo/Royd(new) speakers.
I would second Grahams. The set up of this stuff is critical to not being disappointed. They are the best. ø
Steve and Kate are looking at buying one of the best systems they can get with their money during a medium term (1-2 years).
The CDS2 will mean that they will never ever have to worry about upgrading their CD player again (until!!). A NAIT 5 or a Majik are good enough to show how wonderful a CDS2 is. A pair of those legendary Kan 2s are absolutely ideal at showing how good a CDS2 is - and will continue improving even when upgrading the amps past the £10k mark (hmmmm NAP 500s bi-amping Kans would be fantastic eh?).
Reselling a Majik in 2 years will probably mean you lose £200. Reselling a CDX will probably mean a loss of £800. Remember, Steve said:
quote:
but would rather spend more if it meant less by way of upgrade trade-in loss as time goes by.
With a Majik you can add a pair of power amplifiers. With a NAIT 5 you can add a power supply, then change it for a pre-power amp.
Andrew
Andrew Randle
2B || !2B;
4 ^ = ?;
I think the source first approach is good, but it should not be exaggerated. Come on guys, what are you thinking? It's a big waiste to use a CDSII with a Nait and Kan's! They should at least buy a pre-power. The difference of going from 92 to 102 is way bigger than going from CD3 to CD2 for example IMO.
It's also important to know the room, in order to find some suitable speakers. And do they like the most upfront Naim sound possible or a bit tamed?
It's just not that simple a question!
Steve and Kate, good luck through the maze!
Regards, Bas
quote:
It's a big waiste to use a CDSII with a Nait and Kan's!
Well......no! I don't reckon you've heard Kans in full flight on something like the end of an LP12/LK2/LK280. Awesome.
Andrew
Andrew Randle
2B || !2B;
4 ^ = ?;
Regards, Bas
quote:
With my Intro's I finally have the weight I was looking for. Kan's will never be able to do this. I think it's a waiste to spend that amount of money and then have no bass.
From my experience Kans (under the correct circumstances) have more weight than Intros and even make the carpet resonate. They are fast and dynamic with substance behind the sound (akin to knocking chunks out of the back wall).
In general you are correct about small speakers, but Kans (and maybe Neat Petites) are the exception to the rule.
The sound is not confined to the boxes - as you may imagine - but actually opens a large window up and (depending on the quality of the source) extend the positioning of some instruments to 1/2m either side of the boxes.
Then there is the spot-on and the "always-on-the-ball" timing that is legendary - but Kan's are not just about that.
Naim's new 'speakers are very similar to Kans, but with extra bass. However, to say that Kans are unsuitable for a CDS2 (even if you haven't heard them) is extremely wide of the mark.
Andrew
Andrew Randle
2B || !2B;
4 ^ = ?;
They're also very setup dependent (from what I've read) and I've heard them on the end of a CD3.5/HiCap/72/250 system and thought that, whilst they had some admirable qualities (speed, volume, clarity) they also had some grave problems (tonal balance, no bass, an oddly flat sound plane and the tendency to sound very coloured).
At the price (£200 or whatever) I think you could do far worse, but they don't come close to Neat Petites. Nowhere near. However, like many cult things, you either love them or hate them.
Having said all of the above, I'd love to get a pair and experiment with them to see if I could grow to like them, and being pretty cheap I possibly will sometime...
John
You've got to be kidding Andrew... Kan's are more limited in the lower frequencies than Intro's, just plain physics! I can imagine they might sound punchier but definitely not with more weight. That is unless they use some form of equalisation. My Intro's have almost as much weight as my former REL Stadium II has!
Regards, Bas
If you have any problems, give members of the Kan Jihad (Tony or myself) a call. Send me an email when the time comes and I'll send my phone number.
The Kans will suit your LP12 more than the CD3.5 - they are ruthless of source quality.
Andrew
Andrew Randle
2B || !2B;
4 ^ = ?;
1. Go to a dealer, and one has been strongly recommended, explain what you want and use their expertise to audition the various solutions(naim and otherwise) in your price bracket. You will find that people here are more than willing to spend your money for you.
more generally;
2. I think John C is on the right lines - it is a question of balance. A good source needs more than basic amplification and speakers to do it justice. In my view it is better to have a very good source, a good amplifier and good speakers rather than the very best source and mediocre amp and speakers. Also, not everyone who starts with a good system feels the need to upgrade further.
3. Small speakers Kan never produce the depth of bass that larger ones Kan - there is no substitute for cubic inches as the Yanks say - and for anyone to recommend aged speakers that are hard to find and service is frankly bizarre. Get some decent in-production speakers first then experiment if you want with obsolete technology.
cheers
Nigel
Kans can sound great, big etc. Small speakers do not necessarily have to sound small.
Andrew,
But not with anything less than a 250!
Get real guys. It's true that Kans can sound fantastic, but only if they're driven properly, by an amp that has the guts to juice them up, and although they'll sound good on a Nait at low to moderate volumes, they will not sound better than speakers that give the amp less of a hard time!
As to the questioner's query, I believe you have to go out there and get a few dems to give you an idea of what's what. Certainly, in terms of source, consider nothing less than a CDX. Experience has taught us that a CDX/Nait5/IntroII system is more effective (i.e. musical) than a CD5/flatcap2/112/150/IntroII system. Note that these would be very nice systems in your £5000 budget.
You mention the new speaker. If the looks of the SBL are acceptable, then you should certainly consider it as an alternative at only around £500 more. It's interesting that we have had wonderful results with the Nait5 driving the latest incarnation of SBLs. Note, only the latest incarnation will do, as the new SBLs seem to work much better with weaker amps than SBLs of yore which tended to scream at you.
Thus, a CDX/Nait5/SBL would come in at around £5600. You could add power amp and/or power supply to this system easily (no exchange cost) and it would boost the performance significantly.
The options increase as you go up in price. If you can go to £6000, then the system I would choose would be CDX/112/150/SBL. This system would be a real corker for the money. Beyond that, you would have to seriously consider the XPS or flatcap2, each of which would bring considerable gains.
One thing that hasn't been mentioned so far is room size. If your room is larger than average (above say 15 feet long and 12 feet wide) and you intend to aim the speakers down the long axis of the room, then power is more of an issue and the any pre/power would be more suitable. If you're aiming across the room or the room is average sized, then power is less an issue and signal becomes more important (so you would then maximise on the preamp section for example).
So - whereas a large room may indicate a 102/180 solution, an average sized room could give you the luxury of going with an 82/150. The dealer (and Grahams has an excellent reputation) should be able to whittle down the options for you in conversation when you visit them.
Regards,
Frank.
quote:
Andrew, Kans are a pretty competent speaker for the money, yes, but not everyone loves them - I couldn't live them, for instance, as they have a very nasal and screechy sound which takes a good amp to tame.
Oh no, again someone comes out with the screech argument, and again I have to rise to it…
John, if you are ever in the North West and fancy a listen to well set up Kans, please drop me a line - you will leave thinking they a dynamic, clear and open sounding speaker with a very smooth and well behaved treble, and if anything a slightly warm balance. If used within their volume capabilities they go remarkably deep in the bass, astonishingly so for their size. They will remind you very much indeed of your Neats, just as the Petites remind me a great deal of Kans.
I find it very strange that you hate Kans, then buy the nearest thing to them the market currently has to offer! Can't argue with your choice, the Neats would definitely be on my list.
Tony.
Cheers,
John Schmidt
"90% of everything is crud" - Theodore Sturgeon
Where Kans beat just about every other small loudspeaker I've ever heard is their ability to portray the bass end of the scale accurately, whereby one can easily tell that there is some very low frequency information there (and what is generating it, how it is being played etc.), even when the fundamental note is beyond the abilities of the speaker.
Comparison with a full range transducer soon reveals that the first (and a significant proportion of the second) octave is missing - there are, as yet, no known exceptions to the laws of physics 
.
Still won't be changing mine for some time yet, despite the temptations.
Andy.
Andrew L. Weekes
alweekes@audiophile.com
I have just under gone through exactly what you are looking at with the same figures in mind, not wanting to spend over £5000 ended up spending just over £7000.
The first system I liked CD5\102\180\Katans but harsh.
Flat-cap2 the CD5 much better.
Went to listen to more equipment and in particular some floorstanders.
CD5\Flat2\102\180\every speaker Grahams had between £1000 and £2000 wasn't happy, as well as second hand Kans.
Went to CDX, better.
Listened to BW N804 (£2500) liked. Tried everything, floorstanders, standmounts in 1000 to 2000 range again and wasn't happy so went with the BWs, wasn't overawed by the Naim speakers but this was in the middle of 20 pairs. Maybe should have waited to hear the ****o(?).
1/3, 1/3, 1/3 roughly. Sounds pretty good. Now I can upgrade with the NAPSC and Hi-Cap and then XPS and only then will I hit trade-in values.
Listen, listen, listen....
and enjoy
Matthew
PS Grahams is pretty good, they wont rush you.
quote:
I agree with everything Tony has just written, but a recent play with some Royd Doublets has made me realise just how much of the bottom two octaves is missing from the Kans output.
Must hear the current crop of Royd speakers at some point. I have not heard anything since the old Eden and A7, both of which I really liked.
A plan I had years ago was to at some point far later down the path to sub the Kans with a Rel, as I live in a city centre flat, I have to go quite easy with the volume so as not to annoy the neighbours, the facility to turn the bass off late at night would be really cool. Years ago I took my first pair of Kans round to Jawed's to try the Rel Stentor he used to have, and whilst I could not get the Kans to work well in his room the effect of the sub was obvious in a positive sense - more space and just clearer all round.
If I ever get round to doing this it will be way off in the future after a CDS2 / 52 etc, I just don't see the Kans as even slightly being the weak link of my system at the moment. I am actually even attempting to down / side-grade at the moment by swapping the 135s out for a 250 and cash, and the P9 will go for a old LP12 / Ittok plus cash. Buying a decent flat is my current priority… Three times my salary just so I can have a separate mains spur!
Tony.
I'd love to try this, as it could give the best of both worlds.
One of the reasons I definitely don't want those bottom octaves is the neighbour factor.
The ability to turn them off would be fantastic, as I'm certain if I used doublets at home the neighbours would hear them.
At present every time I ask them if my music bothers them (they must think I'm paranoid) they assure me they don't hear anything, I'm not sure whether that would be the case with wider bandwidth loudspeakers.
Andy.
Andrew L. Weekes
alweekes@audiophile.com
quote:
From my experience Kans (under the correct circumstances) have more weight than Intros
Wow, Andrew accept a 'Most out of touch with reality' Snappy from me. Just to clarify bass comes out of the big driver, not the small driver.
I have Kans and Intros in my front room right now, and the only way I can think to get more bass out of a Kan than a Intro is to disconect the bass driver in the intro.
Kevin.
PS Kans are better than Intros in virtualy every other area.