What is the point of the HDX?

quote:

Originally posted by gary1 (US):
Actually Chief, my take is a little different. I think that the DA Forum is the way it is largely because:

Naim did not come out with the box that forum members wanted (DAC), at a price point they wanted (cheap), with the performance that they wanted (CDS3 and above)!!

Gary, that's more or less what I was alluding to myself. I was just being tactful, given that this is Naim's forum and I know how defensive you are about any criticism of the HDX. The point of the HDX is obviously to offer all the convenience of a music server, with at least the performance of a Naim cd player. Maybe it does, but at a price.

The niche for the HDX is tiny, even by Naim standards. Yes, it has a Naim badge and all that goes with that, but it struggles to compete on a sound-per-pound level with (m)any alternatives today. Moreover, given that it's hardly future-proof, it's going to look as relevant as the DVD5 within a year or two.

The only reason for not producing a Naim dac at competitive prices is that it will hasten the inevitable demise of Naim's cd player range.

For well under £1,500 Naim could offer a dac with at least cds3 level SQ, simply by using the dac in the cds3, and any future developments in dacs could be incorporated simply by using a drop in dac module, much like the old pre-amp boards. The dac chip itself costs relatively little, the r&d has been done, the main cost to Naim is likely to be the casing.

Hopefully, some time in 2009, I'll be able to buy one.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Chief Chirpa:
geetee, Obviously you don't need both a cd player and HDX or any alternative computer-based system, but how many more Naim cd players do you expect to see? To give you some idea, there's been one wholly new one in the past five or so years.
QUOTE]

Why should Naim bother? They have established players at a range of prices and have updated and upgraded the CD5i, CD5 and CDX2 in recent years. And now we have the HDX. For a company of Naim's size, I think that's a very creditable record.
Ken

I think the relevance of the HDX is largely down to how you like to listen to your music.

Me, I enjoy sitting down listening to single albums from start to finish, on CD but preferably on vinyl. I find compilations (of which I've got a few for playing in the car) strangely unsatisfying.

Albums are mostly constructed as a complete musical entity, and although one always prefers certain tracks over others nevertheless I think this coherence is important (to me, anyway).

I also enjoy the ritual of selecting from tangible objects, sitting down and reading the sleeve notes as the music plays (big plus to LPs here)

I have an iPod plus iTunes on computer, and like to listen to the latter streamed to a Lavry DA10 to my 552 - a very good sound, but not as good as either my CD or Vinyl sources and used for casual, background-type listening.

Whilst I accept HD music files have the potential of sounding better than my CD source, apart from a couple of Jon Honeyball's special live recordings I've yet to hear any that are musically satisfying. With the above in mind, what place the HDX?

I suspect I'm not alone in this either.

quote:

Originally posted by tonym:
Me, I enjoy sitting down listening to single albums from start to finish, on CD but preferably on vinyl. I find compilations (of which I've got a few for playing in the car) strangely unsatisfying.

Albums are mostly constructed as a complete musical entity, and although one always prefers certain tracks over others nevertheless I think this coherence is important (to me, anyway).

I also enjoy the ritual of selecting from tangible objects, sitting down and reading the sleeve notes as the music plays (big plus to LPs here)

Tony,

Spot on.

There's nothing worse than continually changing the CD/LP having listened to only one or two tracks.

George.

quote:

Originally posted by tonym:

I suspect I'm not alone in this either.

Tony, I'm with you 100%.

I think the convenience of computer audio is also its downside. With my iTunes and Touch, I can flick through 5,000 songs in an instant. Trouble is, I often end up doing just that.

I'll always have my cd5x, and am yet to find any computer audio alternative I'm happy with in terms of musical enjoyment. Since getting into a computer audio set up, I'm even starting to love my cd player just for the whole tactile experience of finding something to play, reading sleeve notes, open drawer, put on puck, close drawer ritual, before sitting down for an hour.

In much the same way as I used to enjoy putting on a record in fact, before I gave my brother all my vinyl. Hmmm, I might have to get them all back.

Chief, I'm not sensitive to any critcism about the HDX. What you interpret as sensitivity is confusion on my part how forum members are all over the place in their evaluation of various DAC, DS devices etc... when compared to the Naim CDPs/HDX. We've all read about the comparison of $1K Dacs to CDS3/CD555 etc... As we've all said what each one hears is valid and is their own opinion and ultimately all that counts. However, I am still left wondering about the huge range when in reality we should expect some common ground and their appears to be none. Certainly don't see this with the CDP line-up within reason. Actually, I really wish we could all meet at a common place and run through a gamut of devices in a well set-up environment and compare and really se if we are truly alll over the map with opinions.

Furthermore, if Linn are producing streaming devices that cost $6K USD and upwards of $16-18K for the top of the line, why do you think Naim would poduce a DAC for $2250 USD that plays musically on a level to the $18K Linn device, which has been compared by some to a CDS3. From a business perspective this does not make sense.

Gary, putting the dac from the cds3 in a separate box to offer the same performance doesn't cost the same as a cds3, and it wouldn't sell at the same price either. Whatever the price / performance of the Linn DS servers (which start from £1,000) it's hardly relevant here, and why you make the comparison is beyond me, especially given that you've just said yourself that we all hear things differently.

I'm talking about a potential Naim dac versus an equivalent Naim cd player. From a business perspective, given the future for the compact disc, it makes little sense to sell such a device at cds3 prices. Yes or no?

Anyway, I've said enough. The last thing I want to do is criticise Naim - it's up to them where they position themselves in this market. I say good luck to them, and I hope they get it right.

quote:

Originally posted by gary1 (US):

Furthermore, if Linn are producing streaming devices that cost $6K USD and upwards of $16-18K for the top of the line, why do you think Naim would poduce a DAC for $2250 USD that plays musically on a level to the $18K Linn device, which has been compared by some to a CDS3. From a business perspective this does not make sense.

because somebody else will? new customers are much more likely to consider other brands than those committed to naim.

Gary1,

I'm inclined to think that the range of views is down to

1) a number of views based on the ore-production model

2) the fact that we've had 20 years to get used to cd sound and the effect of upgrades. HE players offer considerably more detail but in terms of development are really at the ore-bitstream stage of evolution. However, many people here hear that huge leap in detail and are so shocked that it becomes described as better rather than different. For all the 500 series claims I note that Naim previously claimed CDX2 performance levels.

3) the enthusiasm of gains made in convenience rather overtakes the reality of the sound. Many here will doubtless have made claims for their first cd player that seem laughable now. I suspect this is where we'll find ourselves in a few years time.

Mike

Mike,

I don't doubt that there will be refinements and improvements in sound quality as R&D progresses. I actually think that Naim did a really nice job with the HDX production model. That aside, the sound is different in many respects, just as the SN is different in sound than many of the other Naim pieces. Some don't like the difference, some find the difference more to their taste and liking and some feel it is clearly better. Doesn't mean that it's not as good, just different and not for everyone.

As far as your last point is concerned for some that is true, for others they won't sacrifice quality for convenience and some are willing to ssacrifice some amount of quality for other benfeits. To each his own.

Still however, confused about the wide claims of performance with the less expensive DACs. I've listened and all I can say it didn't do it for me. But others have their viewpoint. C'est la vie.

The point about my HDX is the following:

Before Naim introduced the HDX I made quite a few experiments with PC based audio, but very soon I understood that there are countless variables in PC audio: ripping programs, software players, power supplies, main boards, sound cards and CD/DVD drives, XP or Vista... It is not easy to throw together a PC that is a good source component and than there was always the 6 million dollar question which DAC to use. Therefore I stopped playing around with PC audio. But it was a very interesting time and I learned quite a lot (an example: how different a CD rip can sound by only changing the CD/DVD drive and still using Exact Audio Copy or how big the software player influences the sound - of course all software players were tried out using them with "neutral" settings, so no upsampling or equilizing at all). Than came the Linn DS range and I hoped that using an Akurate DS will solve quite a few problems at least regarding the playback of my WAV or FLAC files - of course still leaving me with the question which CD/DVD drive and which ripping program to use. Therefor I went to a very experienced dealer who sells Linn (he for sure knows how to create an ideal environment for a Linn DS)and Naim. To my ears the Linn Akurate DS did not convince me at all in a side by side comparison to a CDX 2 in a full Naim setup. The CDX 2 just had more of everything: PRaT, details, transient attack, soundstage, tonality. After this demo I planned to use my CDX 2 for another couple of years thinking that hard disc based playback is just not good enough for my. Than came the HDX and of course I listened to it as soon as possible and to cut a long story short: The HDX replaced my CDX 2 simply because I liked it better with ripped CD than the CDX 2. The capability of the HDX to play high resolution files is a very nice bonus for my. Up to now I only consider it to be a bonus since most of my music is on CD or vinyl but I can imagine that this bonus will become more and more important for by the time that more high resolution music is available.

I would have never ever sold my CDX 2 if the HDX would not simply be the better "CD player" to me and I had both at home for more than six weeks. It is a great new product that proves how fit Naim is for the future and I really appreciate this since this makes sure that Naim will exist in the future. And what I appreciate, too, is the fact that Naim is coming up with such traditional products as the amazing Superline. Superline and HDX prove how outstanding Naim is!

quote:

Originally posted by Frank F:
Hi Graham,

Which Sonos are you using??

FF

Hi Frank,

I have a ZP90 playing through Lavry. In my system it sounds very very good and extremely close to the CD555.

An additional benefit of the Sonos experience is the tight integration of last.fm and napster. Either from the dedicated remote or the PC application it's so easy to search/play ripped files, last.fm stations or browse new music on napster.

Works for me

What is the point???

Seriously, it is intended for those without a PC/Mac and/or are not inclined to learn how to rip a CD on a computer.

Otherwise, I suppose the point is the DAC.

If not that then its point is getting you to spend $8500 for a couple $80 hard drives, software you can get for free from EAC (yes i KNOW it is not and EAC engine, just curiously identical in most ways).

I am would love to know their sales volume at this point.

The point is the music. If you view it as a hifi component, it delivers listening enjoyment at or above a CDX 2 and is priced accordingly (when you factor in convienience).

Like the CD players it is greatly improved with an external power supply.

If you can put together a digital front end that you prefer and at a much lower price, more power to you and I wish you endless musical enjoyment.

One could disect the pricing of any audio component and that is why there is a DIY crowd.
As an example one could view a 555 PS as a few hundred dollars worth of transformer, rectification and regulation.

I just replaced my Linn Klimax DS with the HDX. I expected to loose a little in sound quality until I could add a PS. I did it because I wanted a Naim source in my all Naim mid level system. It turned out that I find it an improvement over the Linn.

Just out of curiosity did you listen to the HDX in your system or elsewhere. If it was elsewhere what was the system?

Cheers

Bob

PCS, given the choice, and this is the thing here, given the choice between a PC, with EAC, and the various hurdles which you yourself have advocated, or a HDX where you simply insert cds. Given that Choice and assuming one could afford either, the choice would be HDX every time, obviously.

The point of the HDX is so that people don't have to do what you clearly enjoy doing. The point of the HDX is to enable people to enjoy their music the way the want, and to do that easily and without hassle.

The point of the HDX is to appeal to traditionalists who may not have the first clue about ripping and tagging. Who may have a clue but are not interested and simply want to enjoy a device that they can be confident was created primarily for the music lover and therefore top quality music replay.

If I had the choice it would be HDX every time, not eac, not a PC and most certainly not your 368 step guide to ripping a cd. haha.

quote:

Originally posted by BobF:
Just out of curiosity did you listen to the HDX in your system or elsewhere. If it was elsewhere what was the system?

Who is this question directed at? I spent a week with one at home and felt it underperformed at the price point compared to Naim's CD lineup.

Interesting that you find the HDX preferable to the Klimax DS. I'd like to hear the Linn products sometime.

Graham

quote:

Originally posted by garyi:
PCS, given the choice, and this is the thing here, given the choice between a PC, with EAC, and the various hurdles which you yourself have advocated, or a HDX where you simply insert cds. Given that Choice and assuming one could afford either, the choice would be HDX every time, obviously.

Not quite sure about that.... at least for me I prefer to rip to FLAC. Impossible on the HDX.

Also, not thrilled with the interface.

But sure I would take one for free. Then sell it online, buy a Lavry, triple my storage space, convert everything to WAV and play in iTunes with iPhone Remote app as controller.

And still have about $7000 to spend on new music!

And yes, I absolutely agree with you on who it is marketed towards.

Lastly... I just NOW ripped 4 new CDs i bought.

Lets take stock of the process....
- insert CD into drive
- EAC automatically opens up
- Press F4 - detects Gaps and pregaps.
- Press Shift+F6 album starts ripping

Wow... that was tough. 2.5 button pushes. That is seriously taxing.

Setting up EAC initially couldn't be easier, and took me 4 minutes.

I would guess getting your HDX all dialed in with servers, NASs, displays controllers etc, takes equally long, and is also most likely only done once.

Dont resist.

But yes I forget there are lots of old people in this forum who dont know what "F4" even means. So it could seem daunting at first.

Anyone with an AOL account is more than welcome to email me directly for help.

PC, let's not assume that those people who are purchasing an HDX are computer illiterate. I think that this most likely is far from the truth. You are correct, setting up EAC as a one time deal is not difficult at all. Getting music to play from the computer to a dac or whatever is not dificult either.

What really matters in this environment which I believed we've discussed before is that there are many variables to deal with when developing a pc music based system, not only ripping programs, software interfaces, but also sound card etc... I know Ferenc posted a while back that he was capable of developing a really good music server system and controlling all of the variables, but to get the quality of music he wanted was an expensive proposition on the order of the price of an HDX.

If you don't agree with this and believe that the music from a DA-10 or any other DAC for that matter utilized through whatever system, ripping files, interface gives you the musical enjoyment that you want well then fair enough.

Many others of us who are quite capable of doing what you have done and have done so ourselves just do not agree with all of your propositions nor most importantly do not agree that the music quality is where we want it to be.

quote:

Originally posted by gary1 (US):
Many others of us who are quite capable of doing what you have done and have done so ourselves just do not agree with all of your propositions nor most importantly do not agree that the music quality is where we want it to be.

And many of us who have compared both solutions do not agree the HDX is where we want it to be.

quote:

Originally posted by Graham Russell:

quote:

Originally posted by BobF:
Just out of curiosity did you listen to the HDX in your system or elsewhere. If it was elsewhere what was the system?

Who is this question directed at? I spent a week with one at home and felt it underperformed at the price point compared to Naim's CD lineup.

Interesting that you find the HDX preferable to the Klimax DS. I'd like to hear the Linn products sometime.

Graham

Hope I am doing this right this time. Graham the question was directed to pcstockton.

The Linn is a great product and I was surprised that I prefered the HDX (without an external PS) in my system.

Lastly... I just NOW ripped 4 new CDs i bought.

Lets take stock of the process....
- insert CD into drive
- EAC automatically opens up
- Press F4 - detects Gaps and pregaps.
- Press Shift+F6 album starts ripping

Wow... that was tough. 2.5 button pushes. That is seriously taxing.

Setting up EAC initially couldn't be easier, and took me 4 minutes.

I would guess getting your HDX all dialed in with servers, NASs, displays controllers etc, takes equally long, and is also most likely only done once."

Obviously you have never had an HDX in your system. Normally if you plugg it into a router with dhcp it just works, you just have to wait for it to start!
Yes you can rip as described, the interesting thing is the more people look into distributed audio, the more variables seem to play a role, and the HDX at least takes many variables out of the equation, for those of us who believe that the naim people are testing these things more than we would spend time on doing at home.
If I am wrong I will buy a harddisk or Nas and use my Logitech receiver and sell my cd s3, but it will take some serious persuation and listening tests!

Claus



Dont resist.

But yes I forget there are lots of old people in this forum who dont know what "F4" even means. So it could seem daunting at first.

Anyone with an AOL account is more than welcome to email me directly for help.[/QUOTE]

At the end of the day, I think what the HDX has done is shine a real spotlight on how we listen to music and what is it that we actually buy with a high end music system.

Very few have the real time to sit in front of their kit and genuinely listen to the music. Inevitably there is some distraction, be it background noise from the domestic living environment, the newspaper, a need to surf the web...
but we still are tempted to seek out the best replay we can afford, even if we very seldom experience it at its optimum.

Also, the wide gamut of music and what appeals in the music varies tremendously. The delicacy of solo acoustic music, where one can hear the acoustic resonance of the recording environment or rough, raucous electronic music place different demands and expectations on both the listener and the kit.

For me, the HDX is a compromise device that attempts to marry convenience with hi-fidelity; something that is relatively easy to use, has the Naim footprint and can deliver a high end listening experience. The compromise is that is open to very serious competition from "bodged" solutions. As always, the bodged approach can or could sound better.

Regrettably, because of the different ways in which we experience our music, there is no way to define or verify which solution is best and so we experience threads that either extol the virtues of Naim's solution unreservedly or cast aspersions on the sanity of someone not prepared to buy a Mac, a DAC and some form of server. There appears to be very little space or tolerance for the middle ground.

The great thing is that the HDX, in trying to keep up with the times, makes us confront our listening and bring us closer to our music collections even at the risk of generating a non-Naim solution to replay. That has to be a good thing.

I look forward to a Naim DAC and am still intrigued by the HDX as I was genuinely impressed on those occasions when I heard it. That said, the next addition for me will hopefully be an Aro Keel which does seem to fly in the face of modern music replay.

Sorry for the ramble, but don't forget, it's the music that is important and all of these debates about kit often just deteriorate into a variant of the schoolyard "I'm right because my Dad's bigger than your Dad," logic.

Best,

Huw

quote:

don't forget, it's the music that is important

Absolutely!

Best,
Edouard

That's an excellent post Huw.

(ARO Keel for me too...)

Huw, very well written - agree fully.

cheers
Stefan