How do Naim do it?

Posted by: hungryhalibut on 09 April 2005

At the end of last year I was using CDS3, 252, 250.2, SL2 and Fraim and was alsolutely delighted with it. THe trouble was I had visited Salisbury and heard the SL2s with the 552 and 500. Still, as both were so expensive, I put them out of my mind.

In January I bought a 300 on impulse. I know a 552 would have been better but it was too costly. So the 300 arrived and the improvement was (to me) well worth it. More involvement, better control etc etc. Although the SL2s are quite easy to drive, the 300 really gets a grip on them in a way that the 250.2 does not quite manage.

That was it for the next five years.....

But then, last week, a 552 appeared on eBay with a buy it now of £8,000, about 16 months old. So I figured I couuld sell my 252 and supercap for nearly £5,000, so the upgrade would cost just over £3,000. And the rest is history.

The 552 has been warming up for nearly two days. Is it £3,000 better? At new prices, is it worth £5,000 over the 252/supercap? Is/was the Pope a catholic?

It's hard to describe what the 552 does. It makes music in a way the 252 does not. Everything is so real, so involving. Guitars sound like guitars, not recordings of guitars. Every little detail is there; not in an intrusive way, but in a way that enhances your enjoyment.

I was overjoyed when I heard the 252 compared to my old 82 and thought - as one does - how can this get any better? But with the 552 it does, and by a huge margin.

Phil - the chap who has bought my supercap, asked me will I get a 500. I have heard it and don't think it's a big enough gain over the 300 to justify the cost - and it won't fit in my Fraim.

It will be very interesting when the CD555 appears, with the option of using its power supply to upgrade the CDS3. The same question will come up again - can the 555 really improve on the CDS3 - which is now only showing what it is cabable of with the 552 in place?

The answer has to be yes, or Naim wouldn't be developing it, but if it improves significantly on the CDS3, 552 and 300 it will take enjoyment of music to yet another new level. Eek.

Nigel
Posted on: 09 April 2005 by mtuttleb
Nigel

Naim realise that some of us are just gluttons for punishment Big Grin

Nice to hear you are enjoying the 552

Regards
Mark
Posted on: 09 April 2005 by Edouard
quote:
Originally posted by hungryhalibut:It's hard to describe what the 552 does. It makes music in a way the 252 does not. Everything is so real, so involving. Guitars sound like guitars, not recordings of guitars. Every little detail is there; not in an intrusive way, but in a way that enhances your enjoyment.


From your saying, with the 252 Guitars don't sound like guitars, but sound like recordings of guitars...if this is true then 252/SC isn't worth the money!


[/QUOTE] - the chap who has bought my supercap, asked me will I get a 500. I have heard it and don't think it's a big enough gain over the 300

Your next upgrade: The SL2 need to be driven active...and you need a 2nd Fraim Big Grin

Regards, Edouard
Posted on: 09 April 2005 by andy c
quote:
From your saying, with the 252 Guitars don't sound like guitars, but sound like recordings of guitars...if this is true then 252/SC isn't worth the money!



I think he's describing improvements that can be heard all the way up the chain - added depth and realism etc. I don't think he's saying the 252 is crap at all.

andy c!
Posted on: 09 April 2005 by mtuttleb
quote:
Your next upgrade: The SL2 need to be driven active...and you need a 2nd Fraim


A second 300, a new supercap and a Snaxo 242 and another Fraim........................I would split the Fraim anyhow if you can squeeze it in.

You know it makes sense Nigel Winker

Edouard, Andy is right, Nigel was not saying the 252 is not worth the money....It was worth every penny to me.

I also have a difficulty in justifying (in my case) the extra money for a 552 (at the moment Winker) and in anycase, the extra money on the 552 would be well spent elsewhere

Regards
Mark
Posted on: 09 April 2005 by Edouard
[QUOTE]Originally posted by mtuttleb: Andy is right, Nigel was not saying the 252 is not worth the money....It was worth every penny to me.
I also have a difficulty in justifying (in my case) the extra money for a 552 (at the moment Winker) and in anycase, the extra money on the 552 would be well spent elsewhere


Marck,

I know Andy is right, I have demo 552/300/NBL in UK, with my own cds (mostly classical) for almost 2 hours and wasn't impressed at all. It didn't sound more real to me than what I was hearing at home. Somehow IMO from what I was hearing during the demo, there was still lots of room for improvement.
I also know that if I had the 552 at home for a few days, it would be a different story, I could tell then what the 552 can do and most probably could be very well impressed, at least I hope so!

I believe the NBL need to be driven active anyways... Big Grin

Regards, Edouard
Posted on: 09 April 2005 by mtuttleb
Edouard

I think we have to draw the line somewhere. At the moment for me that is system 4 and not going for anything higher like 552. This system is perfectly believeable for me....

The SL2 also needs to be driven active to reap the full benefits, so I have been told Big Grin

Regards
Mark
Posted on: 09 April 2005 by Allan Probin
Nigel,

Congrats on the 552. I may be in the position later this year to make an upgrade to my system (which is currently CDX2/XPS2/252/250.2/SL2) and could take one of many options. Change CDX2 for CDS3 head-unit, change 252 for 552, change 250.2 for a 300, get another 250.2 and aim for active. So lots to consider there.

I'm sure the biggest improvement, in absolute terms, would be the 552. I only have a single source though and find it difficult to get my head round spending so much on a pre-amp in such circumstances. To my mind, the cost could only be justified by combining the cost of the CD player plus the cost of a 552 (quite frightening when you think about it) and making comparisons with high-end CD players with built-in volume control. It may be that the 552 still comes out ahead but wonder if anybody has done that sort of comaprison ?

Allan
Posted on: 09 April 2005 by Thomas K
Allan, I think this Stereophile review of the 552 includes a comparison to that effect.
Posted on: 09 April 2005 by Edouard
quote:
Originally posted by Allan Probin:
Nigel, It may be that the 552 still comes out ahead but wonder if anybody has done that sort of comaprison ?Allan


CDX2/XPS2/552 vs CDS3/252 has been done, I think someone post it on the forum sometimes ago. I remember that quite a few people prefered the former and some people the later! It could depend on what type of music you listen to.

BTW congratulation Nigel for your new purchased 552! I think you did a good move for 3000£! You were lucky enough to be able to sell your 252/SC that fast in the mean time. I would have make the plunge if I had the same oportunity!
Enjoy it!

Regards, Edouard
Posted on: 09 April 2005 by hungryhalibut
Thanks Edouard

I would never say that the 252 is no good - especially as I paid for one 18 months ago! I'm just amazed at how much better the 552 is, and indeed, how that is possible.

Nigel
Posted on: 09 April 2005 by Geoff P
Is'nt it interesting how different we are...Thank god!

As Nigel knows, for me the 300 was not worth the money over a 250.2 (after a two week home demo of a "burned in" 300 side by side). Nigel feels the 300 was a significant improvement for him.

I have heard a 552 ( in Marc Newman's home for quite a few hours listening to my favorite test CD's,in a dual 500 into DBL's setup ) and just like Edouard while it was very good I did not feel a burning desire to have one. NIgel is delighted with his 552, which is great

Nigel on the other hand does not feel the 500 is worth the extra over a 300 whereas if I WAS going to upgrade from my 250.2 I would blow straight past the 300 and go for the 500.

However like Mark and maybe Edouard I am very happy where I am right now. That includes doing extensive home demos of speakers (including some which retail for 15,000 Euros) which have demonstrated to me that my current speakers are very good and it will be like the search for the holy grail to improve on them.

What matters is the music....that we enjoy the flow of it, and not the analytical or other capabilities of the equipment playing it...

regards
GEOFF
Posted on: 09 April 2005 by Tam
Nigel,

I think you've largely hit the nail on the head. I've gone through a series of big upgrades this last year (admittedly nothing so grand as yours), and each time I've astonished and thought 'how can it be any better' and yet somehow naim manage it. Which is largely why I don't really want to go an listen to a cdx2.......



regards,

Tam
Posted on: 09 April 2005 by hungryhalibut
quote:
What matters is the music....that we enjoy the flow of it, and not the analytical or other capabilities of the equipment playing it...

Geoff

You are so right.

It's great that we have different views and perceptions - otherwise what a dull place it would be. When I first heard the 552/250.2 at Naim, after a 252/250.2, I laughed out loud and said to Nick (my local dealer(of hifi)) who was sitting next to me, 'how can it be so much better?' It was the biggest difference between two bits of Naim (adjacent in the range) that I have heard. If I had to choose between the 552/250.2 or the 252/500 I would undoubtedly choose the former.

One interesting thing about the 552 is that it has made the whole system sound so much bigger that it's like getting a free power amp upgrade at the same time.

I now have a system that was beyond my wildest dreams a year ago and I consider myself very fortunate. We all have to (or choose to) stop somewhere. I have stopped - I simply can't afford any more!!

Nigel
Posted on: 09 April 2005 by mtuttleb
Just to add another thought to all this.

When other people talk (sometimes obsessively) about more details, spaciousness, less grainy and tonal correctness of the sound, just to mention but a few of the descriptive phrases used.....I get the impression of them being someone observing tiny details under the microscope, disecting things and analysing bits and pieces rather than listening to the music as a whole. Slight exagerration perhaps Big Grin, but something along these lines.

When I went to see Madeleine Peyroux the other month, OK there was a slight tendency to wonder now and again how does this compare to the system, but in no way was there a high degree of analytical thinking going on...I listened again to careless love the other evening and feel that my system really does sound fantastic.

Nigel, for and extra £3000, I think this is a very worthwhile upgrade, and I probably would have also done this as well.

Regards
Mark
Posted on: 09 April 2005 by hungryhalibut
Mark

Hilary bought the Madeleine Peyroux CD the other day - and it's very good.

I never worry about the hifi twaddle - it is just so dull.

Nigel
Posted on: 09 April 2005 by Adam Meredith
Recently I have been listening to my CDX, 252, 250/2 and SL2 system and wondering how it could be any better.

I often had the same feeling with my previous CD2, 52, 140 and SBLs. Both systems satisfied and were rewarding, informative and enjoyable.

At NAIM I frequently heard active systems with the 552 in them and took comfort in being underwhelmed by the price/enjoyment equation. It was good to be able to limit my aspirations to something vaguely attainable.

Then I was dragged downstairs, by an enthused colleague, to "listen to the nSATs". They oozed music and the only question that occurred to me was "What is the CD?".
As it turned to ask - I saw that I was listening to a 552, 300 - with a "humble" CDX2/XPS2 in front of it.

The more I listened, the more I "got" the 552. Not that it was difficult - all the previously unrealised barriers to the music seemed stripped away and "hi-fi" became irrelevant. I was not unaware of the cost of this revelation.

I have since recovered and continue to enjoy my home system (soon to rise to a CDS2/XPS2) but I now have an idea of where I intend to go and why that next step will be justified. In the 552 I heard an electronic device capable of giving me deeper and more effortless access to music than anything I have heard previously.

I still find myself kept up 'til one in the morning by new CDs on my home system, still consider it excellent value for money (as music has always been an important source of pleasure for me) but I now know that my NAP 250 will remain in the system until I have the 552 at home and not on loan.
Posted on: 09 April 2005 by mtuttleb
quote:
The more I listened, the more I "got" the 552. Not that it was difficult - all the previously unrealised barriers to the music seemed stripped away and "hi-fi" became irrelevant. I was not unaware of the cost of this revelation.


Maybe I should get one in this year to see what all the fuss is about then Winker

quote:
I have since recovered and continue to enjoy my home system - CDX, 252, 250/2 and SL2


That't encouraging Adam and Geoff seems to have similar experiences with a doubled 500 system 5. I would hate to get fed up with what I've got Big Grin

In the end, would you say it fair that we should really get the best out of and appreciate what we have before upgrading?
Posted on: 09 April 2005 by Geoff P
quote:
In the end, would you say it fair that we should really........ appreciate what we have before upgrading?

YES...as long as you are not tweaking every night to "get the best out of" what you have.
Posted on: 09 April 2005 by mtuttleb
quote:
as long as you are not tweaking every night to "get the best out of" what you have


Geoff,

The equipment has stayed in it's original position since November and the speakers have just been moved further apart so that things open up a bit more.

No tweaking on my side.... honest Big Grin

What about you, I see you have moved your speakers into the other part of the L-shaped room.... Winker. This firing across business really does work and I might try it out again at some point now that the SL2's are more run in
Posted on: 09 April 2005 by Polarbear
quote:
In the end, would you say it fair that we should really get the best out of and appreciate what we have before upgrading?


Again yes,

far to many people worry about what they havn't got instead of enjoying what they have.

My recent trip to Andy C's has proved that. He has taken the time to get his existing system set up perfectly. He now has a thoroughly enjoyable system and doesn't worry about what he hasn't got.

The moral of the story is to just sit back and enjoy your hi-fi.
Posted on: 09 April 2005 by Polarbear
quote:
I still find myself kept up 'til one in the morning by new CDs on my home system, still consider it excellent value for money (as music has always been an important source of pleasure for me) but I now know that my NAP 250 will remain in the system until I have the 552 at home and not on loan.



What you need Adam is a 300 Big Grin
Posted on: 09 April 2005 by mtuttleb
quote:
What you need Adam is a 300 Big Grin


Could this be the end of Mr split personality Big Grin

Stay tuned for the next exciting episode of .... anyone out there want to buy one of NB's 300's Big Grin
Posted on: 09 April 2005 by Polarbear
quote:
I was overjoyed when I heard the 252 compared to my old 82 and thought - as one does - how can this get any better? But with the 552 it does, and by a huge margin.


It has to be heard to appreciate the difference a 552 makes. I am glad your enjoying your new purchase. The 552 allow so much more of the music to flood through. I read a quote once saying the 552 doesn't just open up the barn door, it blows it wide open!


quote:
Phil - the chap who has bought my supercap, asked me will I get a 500. I have heard it and don't think it's a big enough gain over the 300 to justify the cost - and it won't fit in my Fraim.


Its nice to see someone else kidding himself. The 500 is better by quite a big margin and I will bet that if you do purchase one, you will be raving about the huge improvment it has just made.

Keep enjoying your 552,


Nigel
Posted on: 09 April 2005 by Polarbear
quote:
Originally posted by mtuttleb:
quote:
What you need Adam is a 300 Big Grin


Could this be the end of Mr split personality Big Grin

Stay tuned for the next exciting episode of .... anyone out there want to buy one of NB's 300's Big Grin


Mark,

my 300s are not for sale!

I am very happy with them for now. I have no thoughts of upgrading.
Posted on: 09 April 2005 by hungryhalibut
quote:
I have no thoughts of upgrading


And I'm a banana!!

Nigel