Naim Mostly Fit for the UK?

It is nice not to pay pound for dollar prices for a change

malcolm

I think price and ease of getting backup. Also the Naim 2nd Hand market is very active in the UK.

Simon

Probably the largest single reason is as Nick S put it, country of origin.

I'm sure there are others, but from what I know of audio types, they tend not to nationalistic when it comes to their gear.

Presently, every single piece of my stereo is made in the UK. Mostly because it does what I'm looking for.

As an interesting aside: Used to be "Made in Japan" was frowned upon, mostly because of quality control. Since the Japanese have taken up off shore manufacturing, nationally branded products have greater stature

You guys have it all wrong, the reason that there are so many U.K. people on form and buying Naim gear is simple,
(Yes Naim sales are stronger in U.K. as is should be , # 1 in home market is a good thing , growth for the company will come from export markets...)
The reason is......it Rains so much in the U.K. so there is lots of time to stay inside and play music................................

quote:

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Originally posted by Nick S:
I would imagine if you took a survey of e.g. Mark Levinson or Krell gear you'd find the vast majority of owners lived in the US, just as if you took a survey of Unison Research owners you'd find they mostly lived in Italy. Makes sense that the manufacturer's going to have better distribution links domestically rather than internationally, doesn't it?

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Generally, Brit gear sells the best in the UK, and US gear sells the best in the US. naim isn't seen as a bargain here, thanks to import duties. That, and it doesn't get the coverage that it deserves in the US-based hifi rags.

Also, the forum started out with a greater mix of Brits, and I would conjecture that a fair number of us yanks that visited didn't stay as they thought that it was a Brit forum. Just a guess.

Interesting that of the four fora that I frequent, three are Brit-owned or moderated, and the fourth is the Linn forum, which is primarily a continental population.

Cheers

Keith.

Several dealers commented to me it was because people in US want to spend their time choosing cables and mixing components. Then Bose comes on the Telly and tells everyone those days are gone and they only need one box. So everyone gets divided up and there's no place for Naim.

Except for the enlightened few.

Valves are really big here in US. People even seem to like choosing and changing valves. A lot of US manufacturers make valve amps as well as transistor amps. And no one manufacturer makes valves amps, cables, speakers and sources.

Maybe this reason:
Here in north america, people want to try every thing.
Most of my new Naim customers have done it. One day they realise, they have spend so many years listening to gears, cables, they have forgotten the music. At that point they are ready for the "system solution" Naim offers. They want to have a very good system, that plays music. Not AAA Stereophile rated gears, incompatible together.
But this path is a long one, give them time, sooner they'll come to the real music.

One difference is also in the distribution, in England you have a lot of dealers. I don't know the ratio, but let me guess... 1 serious dealer over 4 carries Naim? In the states it is maybe 1 over 20 or is it 40? i count 20 dealers on the NANA web site for 350 million people.
In Canada, the situation is: 14 dealers for a population of 26 million people, not too bad, and things go quite well according to what i'm told.

Emmanuel

All opinions are my own, and reflect those of the organisation i work for, even if not stipulated.

There is only one answer. If your local dealer does not carry NAIM products, most sane people are not going to drive a couple of hundred miles (in the U.S.) to find one (and be serviced by one). I'm lucky, I have a NAIM dealer in town...who also offers other high end products, but the NAIM price mark (at the lower end) and particularly the abilility to build/upgrade a NAIM system over time is a winner. At the very high end......I'm not sure NAIM has it priced right compared to their higher end bretheren. They need to do a better sales job.......NAIM doesn't advertize much in the U.S.

Manu,

The numbers you are using don't really tell the whole story. It is true that we have "only" 23 dealers in the US, but all of them have a serious attitude towards music, which is still the main thrust of Naim's design philosphy (thank God). The US market is saturated with products from all corners of the globe (not just HiFi either) and yet the number of Audio dealers - those who still strongly support the stereo music model - are relatively few and far between. The vast proportion of the 350 million you refer to, don't even know what HiFi is. Their highest expectations are Bose and such-like. This has been a conundrum for high-end audio in the US for years.....it's virtually invisible in the mass market. The combined readership of the two biggest high-end mags is about 80000. That's about 1 in 4350 people buying a mag. Let's see, with the same ratio applied in the UK.... if Smiths in Salisbury, England (pop circa 32,000) sold 8 Hi-Fi magazines a month total, would they still bother to put the 5 or so UK titles on the shelf? Given some competition from other newsagents and subscriptions it's highly unlikely. The situation in Canada and the UK is very different from that in the US.

As for advertising, yes more is better...but for the reasons above, market reach is very diluted unless there is a massive investment, which is not easily feasible for specialty companies. In the past, NaimUSA has experimented with some very expensive US advertising campaigns. This approach was not particularly effective, yet part of the reason why a NAP 250 ten years ago cost not much less than a 250 does today. Our best advertising comes from our ever increasing customer base of people (like you guys!) with well set up systems. This so-called "word-of-mouth" spreading of familiarity with the brand - especially to those who don't know about HiFi mags and stores - is a significant part of our on-going expansion. We can thank
the enthusiasm of people like yourselves on the forum for helping with that!

I am not going to get into the economics of pricing except that at this point, with the wide variety of Naim system options available, there are numerous choices covering all price points. I am sorry that the NAC 552/NAP 500 is not affordable to all, but we think they're the best thing money can buy, and yet NOT the most expensive! The last time I checked one of the Audio "Guides" there were plenty of comparably priced and more expensive pieces on the market which for the most part are stabs in a category rather than part of a focussed "holistic" system design approach.

These are complicated issues which are difficult to compress into a short time or brief description, but I thought it might be interesting to give our point of view since we have had direct experience in the US market over the last 16+ years.

Chris West

Naim USA.

[This message was edited by Chris West NANA on SATURDAY 14 December 2002 at 19:50.]

And yet, after all its the word of mouth which really matters.

In catering we know that if a person has had a good meal they will tell 3 people, if they have had a bad meal they will tell 9 people. More over they will be more inclined to exaggerate when they have had a poor meal.

In many ways hifi is the same, in catering we say you are only as good as your last meal. And I would suggest that as in catering hifi is based heavily on word of mouth.

Promoted of course by forums such as these.

I have a favorite expression about business which probably fits the wealthy US market best, “Fluff, Not Stuff”. Americans make statements with their dollars, typically about image rather than quality. Image, how fitting to audio. We seem more impressed by number of channels, agitating detail, thunderous crescendos, art deco cases, lighting and gages, than musical expression.

To me the Naim sound is intimate, more real in its focus and presence. It is more about a feeling than an image. That theme does not sell very well over here. Add that to the already well-made points about “home-town” advantage, limited distribution (my nearest dealer is out of state, hundreds of miles away) and lack of exposure/advertising (most think I’m joking when I tell them my “stereo” brand name is Naim), and there you have it, an esoteric (limited) US market... Tom.

I find it fascinating that this subject about some bits of audio equipment touch at the roots of extremely deep seated cultural social and human behaviour. That is Naim for you!

I talked to a dealer recently in Southern Cal and like Tom said, he had never heard of Naim. He only started to show mild interest when I told him the price of the most expensive kit (especially the pre-amp - response along the lines of "that's ok then"!) and that the speakers use Scanspeak tweeters.

Jeremy

I think Naim just needs to focus on high end buyers and word of mouth and stay small and efficient. Like it or not most US buyers are looking for banana plug outlets and I think Naim has done the right thing to include them in the new series. Magazine reviews will no doubt do a great sales job in the US and pique interestes in those whose interests are at the higher end.

When I came into some money and wanted to upgrade my stereo system I wanted a complete system (sistem?)and wanted that no frills philosophy in my purchase that NAD was famous for. Then I stumbled onto a Naim dealer an hour away. Once I heard the 90.3/92 I was sold (tho my wallet and buyers guilt said no.) I still have friends aghast at what I've done but music is not their passion. I do have the interest of three friends so it's going to be listening experience that's going to sell them on Naim gear.

Keep up the good work Naim, there's something for everyone.

is a beautiful thing, but as per Hi Fi, I much prefer the British spin on things. If you look at Stereophile/absolute sound/etc.. you will find the reviews fillied with how LOUD the speakers go-- when the amps clip-- how much bass POWER the speakers have-- how ENORMOUS the soundstage is-- how pinpoint the imaging-- how transparent-- how------ the air is in the room etc.. etc..

but none of this, in my 15 years of audio buy/sell/evaluating experience, has a damn site to do with what NAIM prioritizes. And American audiophiles just dont seem to give a damn about anything unless it makes a big honkin' stonkin'noise and doesnt clip while doing so. The best speakers and systems I've ever heard were NOT the most expensive or even near it. I think Brits just understand system synergy better and its overarching importance. This is the essence of NAIM. Not--- how many WATTS you got Billy Bob??

I think we yankees just dont (and wont), culturally, get this.

Wolf, I agree I think naim has taken the right path. In the end business is important, by concentrating on quality but also enabling outside users access (phonos) naim will insure its continued survival, status and importantly jobs and security for its staff in salisbury and elsewhere.

Also I don't believe anyone can argue that the new kit sounds fantastic, even with the dreaded phonos!

quote:

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Originally posted by RustyB:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Keith Mattox:

. That, and it doesn't get the coverage that it deserves in the US-based hifi rags.

That's absolutely not true. Sterophile, the pre-eminent Stateside mag, has published many reviews of Naim product and without exception those reviews have been very positive.

With the recent addition of Art Dudley to their reviewing crew, I would expect to see an increase in coverage of Naim and other FE products.

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Your definition of "many" and mine must differ. I had been a long-time reader of that rag since the mid-80s up until about 4 years ago - naim was very rarely even mentioned until about 5-6 years ago.

And I gots the back issues to prove it (anyone wanna take them off of my hands btw?)

The only US mag that regularly mentioned naim before the advent of Listener was a little-known periodical called Hi-Fi Heretic, which could be best described as an "80's Listener" (Art Dudley was one of the writers as a matter of fact).

I agree with your assessment of Dudley's impact on S'phile; I might even start reading it again.

Cheers

Keith.

Well to me it all comes down to that less is more concept, I'd rather have one nice thing than lots of cheaper stuff. In a Land that thinks a Corvette is the hottest sports car and big gilded boxes that make big noise. Yes, sometimes I am embarrassed to be here, I identify with the continental idea of living (tho I'll never leave the LA area.) I have always been intrigued with smaller sports cars, like my friend's Alfa GTV, or 25 years ago when I first laid eye's on and heard an NAD system. No frills just nice even performance. And Naim does it so well.

Now my friend finds what it's like to be compulsive about stereo gear and really likes my system. I'd consider Naim low end gear to be like an Alfa, versatile and lots of fun, but the high end gear is like an Aston Martin or Ferrari. More serius, more elegant and more bucks.

Wolf, I think you are refering to the appearance of RCA jacks on the back of the newest gear (as we have always had Banana output jacks). Time will tell how this affects the reviewing fraternlty, but it is certainly true that to date many have been critical (from a convenience/compatability aspect) of DINs and even non-binding post output jacks. Non-Glam cables like NAC-A5 dont turn them on either. We also think that it's a good thing that Naim have made this change without compromising the gears performance. It will help with the review-ability factor in the US.

Chris West

Naim USA.

Chris,
Before reading all posts, i want to tell you my purpose was not at all to criticize your (NANA's) work. It was an observation, and you explain very well why it is such.

On the marketing side, what you've said confirm my thoughts: it is not very effective to preach among the convinced, you only "steal" some market shares from other Hi-End brands. We have to be in the HiFi mags/shows to keep our place, but we don't gain much. I say "we" because i think the situation is the same for dealers, distributors and manufacturers.

What i strongly believe is there is a lot more to gain from the "uneducated": people who have never heard music on a good system, people thinking all CD players sound alike, they only differ by features or style, people believing this Danish brand is the ultimate in music reproduction.
These people do not read HiFi mags, they have never visited a serious HIFI retailer. But they read newspapers, watch TV, read Consumer Reports, read deco mags, golf mags, car mags...
I think it is our responsability, and our interest, to educate people, and we have to get them where they are. We have to go out, in the real world, to show them what pleasure we can give them. If they don't come to you, go to them.

Now, its time to read the previous posts.

Emmanuel

All opinions are my own, and reflect those of the organisation i work for, even if not stipulated.

Chris and the people in Phoenix

I think that there is a very good candidate to be a Naim dealer in Scotsdale, they are a very high class importer of European furniture and lighting equipment. They are not Audio dealers and from what little I know of them they are not into our type of audio - however they are into high class fine design.

THey have a very nice showroom - luxurious by third world UK standards.

If Chris and the Phoenix guys are interested - email me for more information

Derek