CDX2

Really? Or just an insightful decision

Tuan,

Nice to see you posting on the Forum.

Q: What is the basis of your opinion?

Thanks,

Markus

The fact that it doesn't play an LP is a bad decision.

Andrew

Andrew Randle
Tip 1: Change your mains plug fuses at least once a year

The hinged transport would have to be rather big, Andrew. Maybe that will appear on the CDS4!

Steve
Un-hinged as the rest of them

Looking at the specs it doesn't do the dishes either. --->>> WHAT WERE THEY THINKING?

Herman

I would think that Naim Audio see the trend and the advantage of SACD technology in comparison to the standard CD spec that introduced years ago... If implemented properly (as I would think that naim Audio have more than enough experience and qualified people to do so and with their current agreesive improvement of all production lines as we have seen in their new offers) SACD will be much better thabn the normal standard CD. This is the fact and this is called technology. Just ask yourself a question: Why naim turn away from the design philosophy of those 52/82/102.. 135, 250 old models??? BECAUSE they are obsolete and will not stand up with the top leading HiFi groups. Well, sometime we have to admit that there is time to move on and be brave to embrace the new thing rather than keep holding to the past. Start drawing an example with dishwasher is clearly showing shallow thoughts and some degree of stupidity and arrogance.

Yeah but SACD is still worse than vinyl. I've had the comparison demoed to me.

Andrew

Andrew Randle
Tip 1: Change your mains plug fuses at least once a year

quote:

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Start drawing an example with dishwasher is clearly showing shallow thoughts and some degree of stupidity and arrogance.

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The above better sums up your expectation that Naim should invest huge amounts of money on a product that has yet to be accepted by the general public. Don't you remember betamax?

quote:

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Start drawing an example with dishwasher is clearly showing shallow thoughts and some degree of stupidity and arrogance.

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where i come from we call that humour. (yeah, i know it's germany - still)

(in case i got the quote completely wrong i want to apologize to any party concerned)

The most important upgrade: Forget about your system.

Great to have Tuan back. He used to be the resident believer in published specs, and every forum needs one, but he left.

SACD is by no means a marketplace winner, and given the lack of advertising and volume of SACD sales, it's hard to justify investment in this technology.

'Obsolete' is probably the wrong word to use in audio. I don't care about the vintage of a technology - I care about how close something gets me to a recorded musical performance.

Life is generally a choice of trade-offs. Steam-driven cars were much cleaner, quieter and faster than gas-driven ones; but gas won in the marketplace in part, at least, because too many steam cars blew up. A perceievd safety vs. performance trade-off.

People who believe the hype about new technologies generally get burned. Consider CD vs. vinyl, early solid state vs. tubes, so called client/server vs. mainframes, even guns vs. longbows - everyone who chose the newer technologies, especially in the earliest stages, came to some sort of grief.

It's been said that you can identify the pioneers by the arrows in their backs.

Regards.

Phil

[This message was edited by Phil Barry on TUESDAY 17 September 2002 at 15:33.]

Tuan

nice to see you here again.

You may have overlooked one small point: There's sod-all music available on SACD, esp given there's loads on CD and vinyl.

It could be said that the R&D costs alone of executing a successful SACD player for a somewhat shaky (and rather less than mainstream) format would be seen as a BAD DECISION.

Just my 2p worth.

Rico - SM/Mullet Audio

Guys

SACD if imlemented well would sound better than the standard CD and this has been proven by other audio company. I do believe that Naim Audio have enough experience to make one. If I undertand people well, we do not need the new Naim series at all (so much for the fanfare) since the so called traditional boxes already sound amazing (to somebody standard). Why the hell Naim introduce new ones? SACD is to stay as it is backed by powerful consortium and SACD disc sounds great. Not too long ago Naim claim that they cannot do any better than the 52, 135, 250, CDS2 models and what happens now? Well, that is called tecnology advancement. I guess that they just wait to see how much support SACD will have before jumping on the SACD boat. Sometime it is good to be pioneered and stay in the cutting edge.

I've come late to this thread, after posting a similar question about SACD/DVD-A in "(Possibly Obvious) Questions On the "New" Naim." I see now that I was missing the real discussion happening over here.

With the recent announcement of new products, I was surprised that Naim would not announce a new player for either SACD/DVD-A. I can understand the point that there is not much software yet available, but it does seem shortsighted even for a small company, with limited resources. I appreciate that this is a minority view on the Forum.

Vuk

It is the same story with the old Naim boxes (52/CDS2 135 etc....) They say that they could not do any better and look at now! New toys appear, blablabla ... " Hello guys, the new series are far superior to the old ones because blablabla..." What is new? Nothing new it is called marketing and technology advancement. Now they probable say :'well our CD players are well engineered and they will sound better than SACD from others.. AND I will tell them: Wake up boys! stop making excuses and start do something useful an SACD can also play normal CDs What is your problem????

There is still a lot of potential left in "Red book" CD standard in terms of its development.

Sony cynically threw in the towel in this regard in developing SACD so that it would render CD obsolete, and we would all swap our CDs for SACDs to keep their music label turning over...

Fortunately it hasn't happened, and Sony will learn that they cannot screw consumers on a six-monthly basis regarding new versus old as they do with their equipment.

Is this not the company which only stocks spare parts for its gear for a maximum of five years?

Regards,

Steve.

It's just a pleasure to hear music as it was intended to be heard.

Well, I've heard the new Stones on my CD5, and it really is quite good, if you like the Stones. Never heard a dedicated SACD player, but when I mentioned the reissue to a non-audiophile he laughed and said, "Now we get to sell them the same music all over again!".
Can't weigh in on the wisdom of not including the SACD format in naim's new player, since I haven't heard the format. Sony owns one of the largest music catalogs in the world, and the new SACD dual layer discs are fetching 13 dollars US at my local music store, which is dirt cheap! Still, the remastered one is pretty good in my non sacd player. I say let 'em go ahead and do the entire back catalog and then we'll see.

quote:

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Originally posted by Steven Toy:

Sony cynically threw in the towel in this regard in developing SACD so that it would render CD obsolete, and we would all swap our CDs for SACDs to keep their music label turning over...

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There's something in that, Steven, but the real issue was the ending of the CD patents and hence the loss of royalties derived from every sale of a CD player and, I presume, the disks. Nothing cynical about it, just good business sense. They have to keep growing the company to make investors happy to invest, etc.

Ultimately, from a business point of view, Naim is no different, except being much smaller and much narrower in scope, i.e. only 'world class hifi'. I'm sure that Naim will produce a SACD or DVD-A player, one day, if the market can support the numbers that they need to make a profit.

Since Naim is perfectionist, I don't see how they would have produced a player for CDX2 money that would, auguably, be better than the CDX for CDs and be a world beating SACD player. It would have done serious damage to their CDSII/CDSIII sales, wouldn't it ? Not a very smart business model.

Peter

quote:

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SACD if imlemented well would sound better than the standard CD and this has been proven by other audio company.

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Tuan,

Specifying a standard is one job, implementing it decently is another. It entails more than just reading a signal from a transport and routing it through a small amount of circuitry. If that would be all, the CD-ROM players in our PC's would probably do the job, but they don't.

It's probably correct to state that Naim could have picked up some SACD hardware from the shelf, included it in one of the new designs and actually make it sound better than many a SACD player currently marketed. OTOH, I would definitely be glad that they haven't done so if it were because it wouldn't get the maximum out of the standard.

Cheers,

Edo

Barking up the Wrong Tree

Tuan: "Sometime it is good to be pioneered and stay in the cutting edge. Wake up boys! stop making excuses and start do something useful... What is your problem????"

I'm tempted to ask what is your problem (apart from grammar), Tuan, but you have basically posted the same angry message three times over, so I guess your problem is this. You want Naim to be a different company than it is.

Look at the history: Naim put its first CD player on the market in the year 1991, i.e. almost ten years after Sony and Philips were flooding the market with new product. We all know why: Naim didn't want to be the first, it wanted to hold on to excellent standards. That takes a little time. You don't appear to have the patience required.

So why don't you get the top model SACD player and use that for the 14 and a half SACDiscs you have? I have never read a review of a SACD player that didn't say it was better at SACD reproduction than straight CD reproduction. So you'd need two machines. (Of course this is one of the problems Naim would be working on, and perhaps they already are. Who's to say?)

Companies like Naim are basically very conservative. They've never been on the cutting edge before, so I don't see why they should now, especially at a moment (which has lasted several years) when no one really knows where the format wars will end, if anywhere.

I would beg to differ, too, with your repeated statements that products like the NAC52, NAP250 are obsolete. Yes, both are, in Sony terms, impossibly old. But I have never heard anyone say, this amp stinks, I need to get the latest model. An obsolete amp would not be such excellent s/h value.

But perhaps all you're trying to do is sell me your 52 + CDSII for, say, 50 quid a piece, due to obsolescense? OK. I'll take it. You know what? I'll give you 75 for the bunch.

Herman

[This message was edited by herm on WEDNESDAY 18 September 2002 at 10:35.]

Of course we're all forgetting something here. Tuan is the same idiot that couldn't understand why Julian wouldn't make him a 50wpc integrated amp. Common sense clearly isn't one of his virtues.

quote:

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The other aspect to SACD (and DVD-A) that seems very dubious to me is the extended frequency response claimed by these technologies.

[snip!]

As far as I know, you need exceptionally good hearing to even detect frequencies up to around 20khz. The 22khz (approximate) maximum that standard CD offers is already beyond just about anyone's hearing response.

The notion that you can "detect" these ultrasonic frequencies smacks to me of marketing spiel rather than any empirical or experiential evidence.

---

John,

Agreed. However, there is a point to be made for this increased bandwidth, in that supposedly poorer reproduction occuring at the extremities of the frequency response would fall into the inaudible instead of the audible.

This point isn't mine, but if any (serious) manufacturer will argue it, I'll definitely believe it.

Cheers,

Edo

Tuan,

The reason why Sony are pushing SACD is because:

1) They own a lot of the IPR
2) They are a big enough company to absorb the costs of failure
3) They are attempting to gain market-share of their technology.

All of these don't apply to Naim Audio (AFAIK).

I also doubt that Naim said the CDS2/52/135s cannot be improved upon. They (of all companies) realise that improvement is a continual quest. Even if Naim eventually develop the "perfect" CD player, amps and loudspeakers, they will still attempt to improve it by driving down the cost while maintaining performance.

DVD-V is another thing. It's an established format. I'm sure if Naim released a DVD-V player this Christmas you'd be moaning that it didn't have the ability to record --- well there are currently *4* recording standards, and customers need a stable supply of blank discs...

Andrew

Andrew Randle
Tip 1: Change your mains plug fuses at least once a year

There is lots of interesting stuff here, so here is my 2c worth.

sacd sounds only 10-20% better; That can't be too bad. Since most of us are in the region of diminishing returns, squeezing an extra 10-20% out of your system must be a bonus.

buying all your music again on new media; This seems to happen every generation, stereo was new in the 60's, cd's were new in the 80's and now we have new standards wars in 00's

no software; There are several sacd plants coming online by the end of the year. Expect much more software by Christmas. Also since there no sacd writers for your computer but plenty of dvd writers you'd expect music publisher to prefer sacd.

the end of dvd-v; dvd-v's are designed for standard definition video films. A single layer dvd-v at normal compresion rates holds 133 minutes of PAL/NTSC resolution video. 99% of all movies are shorter than 133 minutes. With double layer disks you can fit the extras on it. When dvd-v market is saturated and many of us own high definition TVs we can expect blue ray which (surprise) holds 133 minutes of high definition TV.


sacd vs dvd-a vs hard disk;
We are overlooking hard disk in the standards war.

Hard disk systems are already commonly used as audio and video servers in most broadcast facilities. Tivo boxes record standard video on hard disk, Naim and Linn are also working on hard disk audio systems and MP3 quality hard disk systems are also common. A current hard disk will hold about 120G or 200 CDs. That means that most of us will can fit all our music on a hand full of disks or on one disk in a few years time.

Surely hard disk must be a more convenient format. Download straight from the net on your disk. Instantly catalog your collection. You don't need cupboards full of CDs and albums that scratch and warp.

Sure there are quite a few obstacles like how to make hard disks sound good and protecting the copy right of the music but given enough resources these can be solved. (famous last words, specially about copy right) Even the encoding mechanism (PCM/DSD/MP3) isn't clear, though possibly you could add different decoder hardware to your system as required.

The only things I see going against it are the potential for huge copy right infringements, (a hard disk at a time vs a single cd at a time) and the lack of having something physical to collect. I am sure most of us like to browse through our collections while listening to some music. With a hard disk system that browsing would be more amazon style.


Anyway what I am getting at is that regardless of who wins, sacd or dvd-a, I don't think they'll dominate as much as CD did and certainly won't last the full 20 years, there are just too many changes ahead of us.

I am sure time will prove me wrong but that is how I see it at the moment.


Gus (Searching for a fraim for the crystal ball)

it´s a risk for Naim develop a no SACD product

MY sistem : Naim Nait 5 amplifier,Nad c 540 cd player,B&W 601 speakers,Naca5

...do these threads always turn technical?

Anyway...

I heard a Sony SACD player the other day. It was OK.

The tragedy was that it could not make anything approaching music with regular CDs. My wife said, "I found myself looking at the pictures on the wall and finding them more interesting than the noise at the end of the room."

Hopefully Naim would not release such a player, but they have stated before that multimedia players (DVD/CD, for instance) require serious compromises.

I would LOVE a Naim DVD/CD player, but I'm not holding my breath. And Im not sure what I would do if it didn't play CDs at least as well as a CD5.

- GregB

Insert Witty Signature Line Here