CDX2

"Surely hard disk must be a more convenient format. Download straight from the net on your disk. Instantly catalog your collection. You don't need cupboards full of CDs and albums that scratch and warp."

but a single virus or head crash could wipe out your whole collection

Hi,

Of course Naim is testing with new formats, I'm sure about that. When time is ready they enter into that market.

Why should a rather small company invest thousands
of pounds into a new technology esp. introducing
such a product to the market costs a hell lot of
money. Too much risk for a company like Naim is..

Be patient and see what the big market is doing..

Reto

CDX, NAC102, NAPSC, Hi-Cap, NAP 250 (on Target Rack), Chord Odysee 4, ProAc Response 2.5

quote:

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A speaker that could produce 3hz bass tones would be mighty impressive indeed. (And probably the size of a house).

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John,

You don't need speakers to convey the 3Hz signal, you only need something that makes you
feel it. Something like this:

http://www.thebuttkicker.com/images/shaker_large.jpg

Cheers,

Edo

I find it interesting that no one here is including SACD/DVD-A multichannel capability in the discussion here. It is one of the medium's selling points.

Whether this is attractive to most Forum members remains to be seen. Based on the initial comments here -- probably not.

Today, multichannel has little practical purpose for the average listener. However, with the adoption of AV systems more people may be willing to give it try.

I guess for a company that only first put out the CDS in '91, its not a complete shock that there is not an upcoming SACD or DVD-A player. Still, I am a surprised by the lack of a multi-channel player when I think that over the next 6 months we will see many of Naim's direct competitors ready to sell such a product.

I think Naim integrated amp is over-priced (at least in Canada) and underpowered for most of the speakers that I test with. I did not buy the Nait3 and chose the Exposure Super 20. Dont start mention about Julian and my discussion with him as I do think that I have the point. For my requirement the minumum amp that Naim can offer to me is the 250 and no less. The rest is just too weak.

seagull
"but a single virus or head crash could wipe out your whole collection "

Good point, perhaps 3rd party apps can run in a more protective environment than on a PC. But even then bugs on the player software could be exploited.

Hard disks are not as robust as optical disks that is a problem that needs to be addressed. But a disk based system with pluggable decoders would be much more flexible than a stack of boxes with different colour lasers.

pac

I can play multi channel on my AV system , but I haven't come across many multi channel disks yet.

I have a DTS recording of Santana Abraxas which I bought 2 years ago to have a listen at what multichannel can do. Unfortunately it suffers from surround sound ping pong. The lead guitar and other instruments just jump all over the place and it gets annoying to listen to.

I'd love to try it on an AV2 though. Has anyone tried that? I have a Yamaha AV system and while it is ok for movies it doesn't compete with the Naim system for music. Sadly the AV2 is out of my budget for the time being.

I also have quite a few concert dvd-v with dolby surround sound and stereo sound tracks. The dolby sounds clearer but the rear channels don't get used much. They mostly to give delayed echoes to create the illusion of space.

I suspect that until music gets recorded in surround sound the multichannel features of AV will be mostly used by sound field processors to create room images and action films with lots of sfx, but it is a bit harsh to generalise on one cd.

I saw on amazon that there are a few sacds with multichannel recordings, but I haven't tried these.

Gus

I have heard SACD playback on marantz’s top of the line SACD player. All I can say is that it definitely sounds more ‘hifi’, but not more ‘music’ than its normal cd playback. I haven’t got the chance to compare a naim cdp with it directly though. It would be interesting, wouldn’t it?

The way I see it is rather simple. SACD seems to want to reproduce the analog sound that everyone seems to be yearning for, but isnt that already available.

gusi,

You are right. There truly is a limited range of multichannel recordings currently at our disposal. There are a variety of factors for this, which could occupy its own thread! Nonetheless, multichannel recordings are here and more is on the way.

Those individuals that can afford to integrate the AV2 into their existing system are excellent candidates for exploring multichannel music. Either through DVD-A or SACD. AV2 owners don't seem to be talking much about this, but I've already spotted Forum members proudly using cheap SACD players in their Naim systems. I think its great that members are getting good results on the cheap, I just wish Naim would offer an option in this area.

I'd argue that music surround can sound terrible on a dedicated home-theater system. My understanding is that dipoles or monopoles in most home-theater systems can present problems for rear imaging in music. So there definitely are some issues to consider and it will take some work.

Amazon is a wonderful etailer, but it makes it hard to track upcoming multichannel releases. I have yet to find a site that covers global offerings, but there is a hepful US site for both SACD/DVD-A news: www.highfidelityreview.com.
Check out the latest SACD news there to see upcoming mutichannel releases, many of them on hybrid layer format.

If the 552 is anything to go by I think that the CDS3 will re-define what is possible with CD

And Tuan - change the record mate. You appear to be a very grumpy person and talking complete nonsense to boot.

Jay

Yabba, dabba, doooooo

This is quite bizarre. I visit the forum after an extended hiatus, and find that Tuan is still here talking about how Naim don't have a clue on product design.

Do things never change?

I don't know what Tuan's Hi-Fi pedigree is, but I find it incredible how he thinks he knows better than Julian did! Of course everyone is entitled to an opinon, but....

Also, if the lower (in the range) Naim amplifier components are so under-specc'd - how come Naim (unless it's changed in the last year or so) own the largest single slice (use to be 11% when I last heard) of the seperates amplifier market in the UK. You can bet your bottom dollar that most of this isn't down to sales of the higher-end 250's and above!!!

Damian

Damian

pac,

I don't think that the AV2 has build in SACD and dvd-a decoders. From what I understand there are only DTS and Dolby digital decoders.

There is also a 6 (7?) channel analog input. To play a multi channel sacd you would have buy an sacd player with a build-in decoder and have analog connections to the AV2.

I am assuming that most AV2 owners use a digital connection from their dvd player to the AV2. In that case you can only use multi channel for movies. Which is probably why we have not heard much about multichannel recordings yet on the forum.

Ideally the AV2 would have digital input cards, with decoders for sacd, dvd-a and whatever new standards may be coming up. This would be similar to the MM, MC and unity gain cards for the other pre amps. It would future proof the AV2 against newer decoding schemes. I don't know how practical this is from an technical point of view.

The biggest risk is that the new AV standards have more than 6 channels. There is already talk of stereo center speakers and side speakers, changing 5.1 to 8.1.

That leaves the question of what the multichannels are good for. The SFX in action movies and video games are one good reason but the advantage of multichannel to music is not so obvious to me. The only reason I can think of is to make it sound like you are in the studio/concert hall instead of making it sound like the musicians are in your room.

In the 70's there were quadrophonic multichannel systems. They didn't realy take off. I'd be interested to know why.

For the multi channel music I just searched for sacd on amazon and read through some of the reviews. It seems that most recordings were just in stereo. The DTS abraxas recording must have been an abberation because I haven't seen any other music released on DTS. Probably a good thing if that version of Abraxas was anything to go by.



Hey, I just had a look at the high fidelity review site, that's pretty cool, thanks! Looks like Destiny's Child has worked out how to use the multichannel mix for stuff other than ambience.


Steve,

For movies you only need identical speakers in cinema systems. For example there are two levels of THX certification one for cinemas and one for home use. The home standard allows you to have smaller sattelites.

I am in the same situation, 6 briks in one room must be pushing it a bit (budget, space and waf).

I am not sure if there are any standards on home audio multi channel sound setup.

Gus

Steve,

You're probably right, the only standards I have seen were for home cinema, not for multi channel audio.

I guess that only owners of those little Bose speakers will adhere to the "same speaker" standard. The rest of use will just have to use the balance controls.

Gus

2) selling more NACA5

(9 * 3.5 m @ 6.95 p.m. = £218.95 minimum per system)

Peter wrote:

"There's something in that, Steven, but the real issue was the ending of the CD patents and hence the loss of royalties derived from every sale of a CD player and, I presume, the disks. Nothing cynical about it, just good business sense. They have to keep growing the company to make investors happy to invest, etc."

The masters of keeping the money coming in after the patents has ended is of course Dolby.

When the patent for Dolby NR whas still valid the makers of casette decks had to pay Dolby (I think it was) 50 cents. After the patent went out they was charged 25 cents for the use of the Double D logo and any mention of the word "Dolby". Thats business.

Sony / Philips must have missed something here...

JohanR

"It would be interesting to know how well the Meridian digital theatre with all those rather large active speakers actually sells"

...about the Maridian, but a local dealer tells me that the Totem Dreamcatcher system is flying out of his shop.

- GregB

Insert Witty Signature Line Here

Greg said:

quote:

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but a local dealer tells me that the Totem Dreamcatcher system is flying out of his shop.

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I bet! At the Heathrow show they were demoing the Dreamcatcher without the sub woofer and they were providing an amazing amount of bass despite the size. They are very musical and with no nasties.

Andrew

Andrew Randle
"Without music to decorate it, time is just a bunch of boring production deadlines or dates by which bills must be paid." Frank Zappa

gusi,
I'm no subject expert when it comes to AV2, especially as I don't have one!

But I'll just refer you to a previous exchange you had with Emmanuel on the subject of decoding & AV2 (hope this link works! otherwise run a search on the Forum):

http://forums.naim-audio.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=67019385&f=48019385&m=2821940984&r=4011980984#4011980984

Following the recommendation of some members on the Forum, I ordered some back issues of "Listener" magazine a few weeks ago. They just showed up yesterday and I've had fun looking over a few articles.

Here's a quote from the Jan/Feb '01 issue, from Art Dudley on the subject of SACD:

"I have spoken to people at the two companies that make the best CD players I know of: Naim and Linn. While I don't want to put words in their mouths, its fair to say that both companies are interested in the format, yet neither wants to launch an SACD player prematurely. They're waiting for you to show some interest.[...]If SACD is right for you, buy it, and if it isn't don't --and tell the salesperson why. Either is a legitimate vote; ignoring the choice altogether is not."

If you spend any time on Linn forum boards, you'll see postings about a multi format CD player (SACD & DVD-A) coming out at the end of the year. Priced above the Ikemi.

Interesting.

quote:

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Originally posted by pac:

If you spend any time on Linn forum boards, you'll see postings about a multi format CD player (SACD & DVD-A) coming out at the end of the year. Priced above the Ikemi.

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Yup, don't see the point in buying any new-format player unless it'll play everything.

SACD/DVD-A won't decide itself for several more years, yet. Anyone choosing the wrong format will have bought a dodo. SACD is better at the moment, by all accounts, but surely DVD-A has greater potential (and is less jitter sensitive).

Two channels is enough for me, though. Two DBLs is enough for anyone!!!

cheers, Martin

As PAC recall, stand-alone SACD and DVD-audio decoders don't exist, and will not in the near future. Both format rules don't allow standard (SPDIF, ATT optical, AES-EBU...) digital output on players for the Hi-res data. So the AV2 can not decode these formats. But the AV2 multichannel input allow you to pass analog multichannel output from your player to the AV2. Interestingly, it is the NAIM philosophy but for other reasons.

The processing power of the AV2 is not limited. The AV2's DSP chip-set sits on a daughter board. It can be easily upgraded if future formats need more power/memory.

Multichannel music will absolutely need a dedicated, calibrated room (when it will become listenable), otherwise it's a cacophony of music comming from everywhere.
You all know the problems of stereo reproduction: speaker positionning, room acoustics...and you deal with 2 sound sources, imagine with 7, on a multichannel system.
With stereo, you have 2 interactions (L on R and R on L), with 7 channels, you have 42!!!

Emmanuel

All opinions are my own, and reflect those of the organisation i work for, even if not stipulated.

That is interesting that sacd and dvd-a players are not allowed to have digital outputs. I guess that is for copyright protection. I'll have to check it out.

From what I understood dvd-a uses the same optical technology as dvd-v. If that is the case a dvd-a disk could be copied in any computer, but if the manufacturers can keep sacd burners out of PCs they'll have a good chance at protecting their assets.

I suppose it makes sense for Naim to sit on the fence for a while. Bringing out a new range of amps with the "500 transistors" as well as branching out in dvd-v and video switching technologies must have stretched the r&d team a bit.

Philips and Sony both have dvd-v/sacd/cd players so it shouldn't be long before we get a player that does the lot. Sounds like Linn has one coming already. In that case, with a single hybrid player, it makes sense to have only one analog multichannel input port.

It just seemed inconsistent to have a digital dvd-v/DTS port and an analog multichannel-audio port.


FYI I found this an excellent site for info on all the different optical standards: http://www.discusa.com/dvd/dvdmain.htm
(there are links to red book and other coloured books on the bottom)

Speaker positioning would indeed be tricky. I haven't bothered with my current yamaha based AV system. No wonder it doesn't sound the best

Some of the CD licenses have expired, read about it here:
http://www.licensing.philips.com/licensees/patent/cd/documents61.html

cheers
Gus