Which would bother you more - Mana ceasing production of their stands or Ikea ceasing production of the Lack?

Neither mate!!



NB

Gee, maybe I'm missing something. Let me sell my Fraim and go to Ikea...

I would prefer Ikea to wave the white flag.

Mana stands do offer a performance upgrade to your kit. Ikea doesn't - it's only furniture after all.

Take Mana of the market, and the price of the other stands will increase in the face of reduced competition.

Does the Lack play a tune?

JW has pissed me off on occasions, but I suppose I have done likewise in his direction, but I'd never ever wish bankruptcy upon him. The more he prospers the less he'll be defensive about his wares. If you met him as a person, you wouldn't want to wish him any harm - he's actually a nice guy.

Ikea would never notice the drop in profits of their furniture if the Lack was no longer sold.



Regards,

Steve.

Steven,

No doubt you are merely using this piss take of a thread to score points with JW (and/or his disciples) but, for the record, I wasn't suggesting that Mana as a company should go bust.

BTW, despite not having been intended as such, the Lack has been a popular audio support accessory for longer than any other product on the market.

There was a time before the release of the original Sound Organisation Floor Stand when most every Linn dealer supported their LP12s with Ikea's cheap and cheerful end table. Not because they made colourful store props but rather because they allowed the turntable to operate as intended by offering a light and rigid support that didn't tend to resonate at a frequency that was below the turntable suspensions cutoff point.

It never ceases to amaze me how after all these years the concept of light and rigid dedicated supports has been bastardized into a massive stack of metal and glass laden with amps and sources. It's like watching Darwin's theory of natural selection being disproved by time.

I dare say that there are likely many here who would be amazed at how well their gear would sound if supported upon dedicated Lacks (spiked or not).

I imagine that someone such as yourself Steven, particularily as you are a user of QS stands, would appreciate the Lack 'effect'. Mainly because there isn't one. They just don't sound like anything.

In any case it would only cost a few quid for any here to try them out, safe in the knowledge that they make great gifts for poor students/newly weds if they don't fit in with one's ideals.

Craig

PS. I swear that my HP Deskjet achieves better resolution upon dedicated Lack than it does perched on top of my massive glass and metal desk.

Craig wrote:

"It never ceases to amaze me how after all these years the concept of light and rigid dedicated supports has been bastardized into a massive stack of metal and glass laden with amps and sources. It's like watching Darwin's theory of natural selection being disproved by time."

Well, in my case, the LP12 and CDSII is on their own dedicated tables with no contact with anything else.

"I dare say that there are likely many here who would be amazed at how well their gear would sound if supported upon dedicated Lacks (spiked or not)."

Yes, Lack is better than nothing, I used it before I got Mana. Mana is much better sounding. Period.

"PS. I swear that my HP Deskjet achieves better resolution upon dedicated Lack than it does perched on top of my massive glass and metal desk."

I beleive you. But it's not a HiFi component.

Of topic. I cried (no not really, but it was a sad day) when IKEA stopped making the armchairs that where made entirely of plastic foam. Anyone remember them.

quote:

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Why take the piss - it is an excellent product.

---

Agreed, the Lack is an elegant design solution to a question that was never asked.

quote:

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Separation of supports is king. Stacking is a compromise, the question is who does it best.

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Agreed! Now does anyone really know who does it best?

I tried the search monocycle but couldn't come up with Vuk's famous chart of numeric results compiled whilst listening to other peoples systems, in other peoples lounges, whilst on a binge in another country. The web is a terrible place to store such seminal stuff.

quote:

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...the armchairs that where made entirely of plastic foam. Anyone remember them?

---

Were they by any chance the chairs that were proven to last longer than anyone would want them to via a display that applied mechanical wear simulation? I've always fancied one of those wear simulation contraptions for the lounge.

If not, then I must have missed them whilst rushing past the armchair displays to the cafeteria for the obsessively rationed meatball lunch, before waiting another hour in a que to pick up my load of Lacks, followed by driving the two hours back home.

Mail order stackable angle iron would have been far less painless I suppose, as some assembly is required with both products.

IKEA, Swedish for...

tight as a frog's arse

waiting in a que

out of stock

Mana, British for...

anyone?

Craig

Best of Both Worlds...

You people are missing out on possibly the best option....Anybody tried putting your Lack on a soundstage?

Only taking a partial piss

regards,

michael

[This message was edited by mykel on WEDNESDAY 02 April 2003 at 15:52.]

quote:

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No doubt you are merely using this piss take of a thread to score points with JW (and/or his disciples) but, for the record, I wasn't suggesting that Mana as a company should go bust.

---

I was doing nothing of the sort. I answered the question in earnest.

Lack is a piece of furniture for the weenie-boy under the thumb of the WAF.

Mana and QS (Ref, note I said "ref") are both peformance stands with different sonic flavours to taste.



Regards,

Steve.

Well...

I used a lack for my LP12 at first, seemed to work OK. When you consider price, its a pretty effective piece of kit. Mana may be much better sounding ( surely an opinion? Has anyone compared the two? ) but it costs a great deal more.

Mike

Peter,

In answer to your question, no I haven't had a bad experience with Mana (nor with any Manaists really).

To be honest I've never had the opportunity to hear it in my system (I did have an offer from Vuk to hear his prior to his recent move but it really wouldn't have been worthwhile as the last time I had heard his system both it and his room were quite different).

In any case, as I pointed out previously in this thread, I was merely taking the piss. Why is it that Manaphiles have such a sense of humour failure when one takes a shot at their preferrences but are always more than willing to deride others choices? (not that you in particular are necessarily like that Peter)

BTW, my current preferred stands are original Sound Orgs although I do use a spiked Lack for turntable support duties in my second system.

Shocking as it may seem, I do very much like the sound of my setup as is, although having said that, I wouldn't be adverse to trying out something else.

It's just that until such time as something else becomes readily available, I won't have much opportunity in this HT built into the wall obsessed land (although the former Naim dealer recently started carrying standard QS so who knows I may become another bog seat collector - well not if the prices asked for standard QS over here are any indication).

Steven,

Sorry, but I mistook your reply as being from someone who hasn't the experience to realise that the performance of any purpose designed stand can only be ascertained by comparison to a known reference. That reference would have to be Lack as it is the only readily available choice (Sound Org no longer produce anything like thier original supports).

You should really pick one up and play about with it. They cost next to nought and, who knows, you may just end up readjusting your expectations of value for money.

Mykel,

Funny you should mention that as there are a good few Lackophiles (get it?) using a second Lack top board as a soundbase clone and just as many using one as a reference top.

No doubt they are all mad.

Craig

[This message was edited by Craig Best on WEDNESDAY 02 April 2003 at 16:46.]

quote:

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Sorry, but I mistook your reply as being from someone who hasn't the experience to realise that the performance of any purpose designed stand can only be ascertained by comparison to a known reference.

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My Reference is the ordinary Quadraspire, or my old Optimum Prestige rack. Both are still in production.

If you regarded the Lack as some kind of furniture reference with which all other stands could be compared you should have made that clear(er) in your opening post, imho.



Regards,

Steve.

Steven,

I stand corrected and will endeavor to be more clear when having a go next April 1.

Craig

Craig wrote:

"Were they by any chance the chairs that were proven to last longer than anyone would want them to via a display that applied mechanical wear simulation? I've always fancied one of those wear simulation contraptions for the lounge."

They where made in the latter half of the 1960:s and mine DID last a quarter of a century and showed no signs of falling apart when I throwed it away! Big square block of foam with a cavity for ones bottom.

I agree on the thought that having more than one component on the same stand is a waste. My HiCaps and 180 is not on any proper stands, maybe I should try some Lack under them? The problem is space, but I'm working on it.

JohanR

Chaps

Just what is a Lack ?

I have never heard of it.

Regards

Mick

Mick,

I am not surprised that a man of your good taste would not know what a 'Lack' is.

I would guess that you have never experienced the 'delights' of a day out at Ikea, the queues (to get in the car park and at the checkouts), the out of stock items, the meatballs in the cafe...

'Lack' is the name given by Ikea to one of their range of small tables. It is just the right size to take hi-fi components (e.g. an LP12) and is lightweight and rigid and relatively cheap (c £25 if memory serves me correctly)

p.s. I don't own one of these but have an IKEA desk supporting my computer at home.

p.s. I wonder how one of these would affect a VPI?

p.p.s. Also whether the proliferation of Lack tables in the listening room may also affect listening position by resting feet on table rather than crossing legs...

FYI. We Swedes do love to stand in queues! And eats not only meatballs but also raw fish.

JohanR

Attention Health Hazard

Do NOT read the article in the latest edition of HiFi Choice (since it's April I guess it's the MAY edition)on isolating HiFi from vibration followed by reviews of 4 purpose built stand systems including the beloved Quadraspire, if you of a sensitive disposition.

Buried in there are comments to the effect that really all you are doing is mixing the vibration modes transmitted through the stands with any "ringing" generated by the stand materials to create a unique vibration environment which may colour the sound in an "attractive" way.

A basic chunk of wood such as a Lack may indeed have it merits according to their article.

GEOFFP

Mick,

Rumour has it that Naim's listening room was once quite littered with IKEA's cheap and chearful occasional table.

I imagine that Paul Stephenson is right now kicking back with his cowboy boots resting on the old Lack that used to keep the companies first pre-Valhalla LP12 up off the floor whilst his workstation quietly plots a graph of first quarter 2003 company profits.

BTW, the Lack could very well be the perfect sized dedicated support for a Loricraft plinthed, Garrard 401 (W55 X D55 X H45 - how far apart are those squash balls anyway?).

Not only that, but for a half dozen quid extra you can get one in real birch or beech veneer.

Surely Rutger Andersson had you in mind when he designed the Lack over 25 years ago.

Craig

quote:

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Perhaps while you are at it you could try to be amusing too?

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I am totally in agreement with this above statement/rhetorical question.

The thread begins with a daft question that our topic starter here thinks he can get away with, cos it's April Fool's day.

The hypothesis was also rather confusing, and the "reference" parameter re. the Lack was then set for posterity's sake presumably once April Fools' Day had passed.



Regards,

Steve.

Geoff P wrote:

"A basic chunk of wood such as a Lack may indeed have it merits according to their article."

In my days the legs of Lack tables was made of plastic and the plate mostly hollow, masonite surounding a wooden frame.

It was also recommended to cut out the masonite on the underside. Is this still done?

JohanR

Geoff,

quote:

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A basic chunk of wood such as a Lack may indeed have it merits according to their article

---

Interesting comment that, although to be fair it should be noted that the construction of the Lack's top plate is reportedly quite a high tech piece of engineering and not merely a 'piece of wood'.

According to Ken Lyon, the producer of the Neuance line of substitute audio support shelving, his Greater Ranges products are designed along the same principals using different densities and thickness of 'boards'.

'Boards' may be a somewhat misleading description as these platforms are formed in one operation using an injection moulding procees which sees the outer 'skins' (the surfaces that we see and feel) held in formation whilst a mixture of mostly wood based byproducts and adhesives (likely low expansion rate polyurethane foam) are injected within, creating a very light and rigid structure - the strength and natural damping properties of which benefits from the surface tension between the fill and outer sheathing.

It is interesting to note that the internal fill can be tweaked to give the desired density, mass and, resonance characteristics.

Anyway, Ken himself uses Mana stands but with his own purpose designed boards in place of the usual glass. ISTR him reporting that his Xerses 10 shows dramatic improvement upon Neuanced Mana wall shelf vs the standard article. Ken is also the first one to point out that his products my not suit everyone's taste.

Maybe he'll pop in and provide some more details and/or correct any misinformation that I may have perpetrated.

Johan,

Yes, at one time the Lack was indeed as you described. Somewhere along the line IKEA (or more likely, their supplier) switched over to the above mentioned technology, no doubt for the sole purpose of reducing production and material costs.

A long time friend of my wife has been a buyer for IKEA for a number of years now. I will make a point of asking her to dig up any Lack related information that she can (she regularily travels to head office in her duties).

Craig

craig

quote:

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to be fair it should be noted that the construction of the Lack's top plate is reportedly quite a high tech piece of engineering and not merely a 'piece of wood'.

---

Amazing! and I innocently bought 3 of these "high tech" constructions becasue they are so darn cheap and make great occasional tables.

Now I am going to have to consider sawing the legs down and stacking them to make a 3 tier rack with my new CDX2 (my curent pride and joy) on the top.

GEOFFP

Geoff,

It is a simple matter to fit the underside of the Lacks legs with suitably threaded press fit insert nuts (available from any fastener supply shop) to allow the fitting of adjustable downward facing spikes. I use a spare set of the larger Sound Org spikes beneath my dedicated turntable Lack.

I would suggest this for the lowest Lack of the stack.

Subsequent layers may then be fitted with audio accessory cones which are available from a number of suppliers in a shallow format (and with a threaded self-tapping screw attachment facility).

E-mail me off-line if you would like detailed instructions via cbest at msn dot com.

Craig

My advocacy for Lack is largely intended to introduce the concepts of Low mass/low energy storage/rapid dissipation support to a different audience,one largely unfamiliar with the benefits of proper component support & isolation or cannot justify the purchase of a more costly audio specific performance support.

What Lack offers is a highly cost effective support structure that unlike many specialist audio stands on the market, does not do damage to music.
Lack is not so much a great support as it is not actively bad.
You'd be shocked at how many expensive dedicated audio supports are truely awful and the use of Lack tables often significanty betters those abominations esp in the areas of pace and timing.
It has a very low self generated sonic signature and thus does not intrude heavily onto the presentation with it's own "voice".
That seemingly simple quality of self-effacement is extraordinarily rare amoungst specialist isolation and support manufacturers.

Ken Lyon
GreaterRanges/Neuance