Cults Of Unreason
Posted by: Prince Of Softies on 25 May 2003
Please forgive me for venturing out of The Padded Cell, but as a long time lurker and occasional meaningless contributor I couldn’t help but comment on some of the ideas that surface on hi-fi forums from time to time.
One of the cornerstones of any good cult is the ability to turn opinion, theory or half-truth into fact. Any decent hair-brained pseudo-religion can defend their gormless ideas with a few simple counter arguments. For example:
Cultist: The spirits of the dead fly to Jupiter and live lives of tranquil bliss in the methane layer of the atmosphere
Unbeliever: This is plainly cobblers and I’m thinking of calling the police
Cultist: Prove that it isn’t so
Unbeliever: Errr
Or:
Cultist: We are all evolved from rocks
Unbeliever: Interesting theory, what about all those fossil records?
Cultist: All fabricated by the global conspiracy of Master Bakers, who don’t want us to know the truth
Unbeliever: Hmmm, I always thought my Nan had a bit of igneous in her
Or even:
Cultist: All electricity is created from the collective output of the human orgasm
Unbeliever: Wibble
Cultist: You may scoff, but when you rise to a sufficiently high level in the organisation you will be shown the evidence. Until then you must believe, or me and my burly friend here will throw you out on the street with a large firework stuffed up your bottom. Then we’ll ostracise you and your loved ones!
Unbeliever: You win, how much do I have to pay?
But more tellingly:
Cultist: You’d call yourself an open-minded person, wouldn’t you?
Unbeliever: Of course
Cultist: You don’t believe that we’ve discovered all there is to know about everything, do you?
Unbeliever: Certainly not
Cultist: Then like every right-thinking person, you believe that there’s far more going on than “science” as we know it can explain, don’t you?
Unbeliever: I should co-co
Cultist: <gotcha>
There are many other non-arguments here including the ever popular: “My mate’s brother’s seen one so it must be true”, or: “2+2 = 4, agreed? So 2+3= 99”, but you get the drift.
So, eventually to the point of all this -
6 months run-in for kit? A classic case of the 2+2 argument. Yes I dimly remember my 72/Hiicap/250 getting better over a couple of weeks, but 6 months? Give me strength.
My speakers got no bass. Ah well, you haven’t thrown enough watts (money) at it.
Talking of worshipping at the altar of wattage, am I alone in wondering if the next step in history repeating itself will be for people to start talking in lascivious terms of how many watts their speakers can handle, or the size of their woofers? Or buying Sweet and Mud records?
How about the : “I haven’t heard the new kit and I have no intention of doing so, but I KNOW that its not for me” brigade?
Don’t even get me started on the appalling pseudo-science that surrounds stands. The cultism and the associated mentality is so blatantly just a substitute for joining The Scientologists, that I’m almost embarrassed to mention it.
Is this a recent thing here that some people believe that if they keep saying some utter bollocks often enough it’ll become accepted fact?
There are probably other examples that, caught up in my rant as I am, I can’t recall just now.
Walter
Posted on: 25 May 2003 by trickytree
Walter,
Please dont get talking to my wife or i'll never get my flippin Hi-Cap
Posted on: 25 May 2003 by Bob Shedlock
Hmmmm, perhaps if it annoys you, you shouldn't read it all. Still there is a commonality of group-think along the lines of what you rant about, but it exists in all groups and is hardly the exclusive domain of this form.
Stands do make a difference
Interconnects too
extension cords
AC lines
It DOES take a while for pieces to settle in,
but in my experience, speakers are the no. one
offenders.
The question is, how big of a difference and is it actually better and why aren't people listening to the music?
Posted on: 25 May 2003 by Phil Barry
Well, since I've made some pretty pointed statements here regarding mistaking opinion for fact, I agree with some of your post, Walter.
BUT I think you are missing the point of some of the behavior you seem to be calling cultish.
A lot of people claim to have heard improved bass, etc., after installing a hicap. A lot of people claim to hear differences in sound over time, btween cables, etc.
These claims have not been tested scientifically, and they are amenable to objective testing, so it's hard to accept them at face value.
But it must also be admitted that since these claims haven't been tested scientifically, they can't be rejected out of hand until the testing is done.
Phil
Posted on: 25 May 2003 by Prince Of Softies
Phil, Bob,
I have no issue with the effects power supplies can have on a system. I've heard the effects and believe. Likewise cables, and some mains improvement.
The vast majority of comments about these sorts of things here and elsewhere are usually based on personal albeit personal experiences. This seems entirely reasonable .
It's the unsustainable justifications, usually hyerbolic and based on unreason and "received wisdom" that seemed to me to be on a bit of an upsurge. Hence the rant.
Posted on: 25 May 2003 by matthewr
The Second Rule of Conservation of Hi-Fi Lunacy states that:
Given two hi-fi enthusiasts A and B, the real differences between any two hi-fi components, sytems or tweaks are several orders of magnitude less significant than those perceived differences caused by preconceived notions of what differences to expect and other forms of bias
In other words its not that differences don't exist more that any sustained interest in hi-fi will cause the listener to acquire a set of biases and prejudices that render such relatively minor differences as actually exist essentially irrelevant.
Matthew
Posted on: 25 May 2003 by Mick P
Just wish someone would stretch their necks.
Regards
Mick
Posted on: 25 May 2003 by Don Atkinson
but as a long time lurker and occasional meaningless contributor
and this occasion is no exception.............
Cheers
Don
Posted on: 25 May 2003 by Mick P
No I did not.
I got the price down to £90.00 but cloning is only legal if you make it for your own use.
Bub would not seek JW's clearance and hence by passing it on to Bub or someone else, I could be open to action.
The Brick stands retail at a ludicrous £475.00 a pair and I can get them made for £130.00. It is only iron mongery which is dead easy and cheap to make.
You can approach your own local fabricator and you will be surprised just how easy it is.
Regards
Mick
PS I am still stuck on the brass domed nuts but there are plenty of stainless steel or chrome plated about.
Posted on: 25 May 2003 by Minky
It is ironic that I (king of the sceptics) am the one who unleashed the "6 month run-in" comment that awoke the beast "Walter" from his lair.
Firstly you have to put the 6 month thing into context. In a previous post I said that I knew someone that was running-in a similar system and would get a progress report. Said person told me that his new system had taken about 6 months to "come right" which I passed on.
I agree that there is nothing worse than people who attempt to turn "opinion, theory or half-truth into fact" but there is also nothing wrong with people expressing an opinion provided it is framed as such. On the occasions that I have offered advice I have made sure that I added some context so that readers could find sympatico or otherwise and I have made it clear that this was just my opinion. If my advice was based on hearsay I made this clear.
I hate tweakery too but I wouldn't put stands or mains into that category.
One thing that worries me about the "loosen the left screw" brigade. If you gave me a sugar pill and told me that it would give me more energy, it probably would for a few days and then I would either realise that it was bollocks or I would up the dosage. Get me drift ?
Posted on: 25 May 2003 by Bob Edwards
John--
You said: "Every system is a compromise, has strengths and weaknesses, but some people here seem unwilling to accept that their system/component is not perfect in every area, and if you attempt to point out, after comparing said system/component against other systems/components, what those weaknesses might be, there is a kneejerk reaction to shout you down, accuse you of being deluded, or simply not "listening properly."
Unfortunately I agree with you--I think you are dead on. I recently gave some house space to a Classe DR-6/DR-9 preamp and amp. I had heard great things about them years ago and had always been curious to hear them. The Classe gear does some things substantially better than my current Naim setup--notably image, soundstage, air, and the like. The Naim gear I have is substantially better in terms of timing, tunefulness, dynamics, speed, etc. As you say, tradeoffs from one to the next. And if someone preferred the Classe, I certainly wouldn't be offended (though a wisecrack might be in order....all in good fun).
I think what might be happening is that once accustomed to a certain presentation, anything else can sound dreadfully wrong. Certainly when I hear enormous Krell/Levinson/Ayre/CJ/ARC/etc. systems they sound broken. And so they are--relative to what I'm used to and what I value.
Oh--and I have heard Bryston--my friendly Naim dealer has it. Compared the 7B-SST (I think that is the whole number) to a new Naim 250. I preferred the 250, but can certainly hear why someone would love what Bryston does.
Best,
Bob
Posted on: 25 May 2003 by Mick P
I was asked by Bub who is a fervent Mana supporter and friend of JW to make a soundbase for £150.00 . It was a challenge. I am a Buyer by profession and as challenges go, this was a doddle.
The challenge did not progress because it is illegal to do it on behalf of a third party without the patent owners permission. I can get it done for £90.00 compared to the RRP of £175.
I also had a quote of £130 for a pair of Mana style stands for Briks. The RRP is £475.00.
A couple of points worth noting.
As Tom said there is a difference of £345, which is what you would save if you asked a local fabricator to make a pair up for you. £345 profit is quite reasonable when Mana have to pay for postage and heavy duty packing as well as paying for a factory that has to make things on demand.
My point is that some things are impossible to clone on a once off basis (such as Hutter or Fraim) but Mana being predominantly iron angle is a piece of cake.
Therefore, if I was going to go the Mana route, I would most certainly arrange for it to be done locally.
On a legal note, it is permissable to clone anything as long as it is for personal use only. The moment you pass it onto someone else is when you are in trouble.
The difference between £475 and £130 is a lot of money to some people and it could be the difference between having a good sounding system or not.
Like Tom said, there is no need to get yourself wound up.
Regards
Mick
Posted on: 26 May 2003 by Minky
quote:
Originally posted by J. A. Toon:
This thread demonstrates a classic case of the increasing Naim bigotry which is rather worrying/disappointing to see on this forum.
Is it just me ?
Posted on: 26 May 2003 by Alex S.
Oi!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! My system is not Round Earth its Martian!
Posted on: 26 May 2003 by Alex S.
Tom, I didn't know you had access to my web-cam.
Alex
PS Its reassuring to know that as Marco galloped off into the dark-lands John rode in to take his place.
Posted on: 26 May 2003 by Mick P
I have two sets of Mana speaker stands and they are easy to clone. It is only angle iron. It is as low tech as you can get.
Trying to clone Fraim, Quadraspire and Hutter just would not be practical, especially at low volumes.
Regards
Mick
Posted on: 26 May 2003 by DJH
Sheep in sheep's clothing
There is something quite distasteful about watching someone try to trash a good product because he has personal differences with the manufacturer. Given the sheer amateurism of the attempt however, it reminds me of Denis Healey's famous comment that debating with Geoffrey Howe was like being savaged by a dead sheep. The real cult of unreason is the manner in which forums allow such individuals space to behave in this manner, wearing the number of their posts like some Papuan penis sheath trophy. Best ignored.
BTW ; I use Mana - it does just what it says it'll do. I'm sure other stands are also good, but I spend my free time listening to music, not splitting hairs in some dingy demo room.
Posted on: 26 May 2003 by Mick P
No one has criticised Mana. I use it under my Briks and also under my SBL's. I prefer Hutter for the black boxes.
All I have said is that anyone can make considerable savings by cloning Mana because it is dead easy to do so.
Most products can be cloned, but it rarely pays because in order to remain within the law, you can only clone for your own private use and hence low volumes, which are uneconomical, are involved.
If you wanted to go upto say phase 10, you could clone the soundbases for a fraction of the RRP.
Regards
Mick
Posted on: 26 May 2003 by Mick P
You are entitled to raise the subject on whatever forum you want.
Bub issued a challenge, probably thinking I was waffling hot air.
Anyone can go to a local fabricator and do what I did, it really is that simple.
I refused to become involved with Bubs challenge because me buying a clone and passing it on to him is illegal unless JW sanctioned it.
Naim in Three
I bought Hutter after listening to several systems in different peoples house and then 3 weeks after, Naim announced the Fraim.
Regards
Mick
Regards
Mick
Posted on: 26 May 2003 by Mick P
I understand where you are coming from so please allow me to explain.
well actually, I think DJH had some understandable basis for criticism.
On the first page of this thread, Mick wrote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Mana mob.
Just wish someone would stretch their necks.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now if that is not intended to be a wind-up I don't know what is!
Yes it was a joke, and obviously so.
--------------------------------------------------
I have to say that on other threads, Mick has done his fair share of blantant Mana bashing. Not constructive criticism, but bashing.
Sorry Mick, but what is your problem with Mana?
If you hate the stuff, fine, but you don't need to use every opportunity to slag it off some more. There is nothing wrong with thinking it is overpriced, underperforms, or doesn't sound how you want it to, etc.; these are all valid topics open to debate; but you don't need to constantly be poking jibes at your so-called "Mana mob" at every opportunity.
John
I have absolutely no respect for JW. His conduct has encouraged the loutish behaviour that the Mana supporters are famous for. He even encouraged bad behaviour in the notorious "septic tank" where four letter words became the order of the day. If you have respect for that, then fine, but I and most others do not.
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I really wish all the product bashing would stop. Nothing wrong with expressing a reasoned criticism or analysis of a product, of course, which is actually a positive exercise, but this is entirely different from constantly slagging a product off!
Why bother?
John I have criticised the appearance of Mana (which is subjective) but I challenge you to find any statement where I have criticised the quality or sonic capabilty of the product. Indeed I have a set of Mana supports under both sets of my speakers.
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The reality is that JW is a nice guy but he also has a ludicrous attitude towards those who do not support Mana. He encourages his supporters to be nasty in the extreme, even to the point of slagging off their fiances appearance. He is a split personality and I have told him on many occassions that he is unfit to run a company.
Take the latest fiasco, he makes a bold public statement telling Tony Lonorgan he wants nothing more to do with him and the pack dive in with every possible insult. 24 hours later, it is Tony, all is forgiven etc etc etc. All this can be seen on the Mana forum. It really is a tacky episode. Unfortunately it is nothing unusual.
He is volitle and inconsistant and creates the wrong image for the product. If he were to let someone else front the forum, the image would improve no end.
I hope that addresses your concerns.
Regards
Mick
Posted on: 26 May 2003 by Tarquin Maynard - Portly
quote:
Originally posted by J. A. Toon:
.
If I appear to be the one always criticising Naim equipment on this forum, that is only because nearly everyone else tends to eulogise Naim equipment all the time,
Call me old fashioned, but I would have thought a Naim forum would largely be populated by Naim fans.
Mike
Posted on: 26 May 2003 by syd
quote:
Originally posted by mike lacey:
quote:
Originally posted by J. A. Toon:
.
If I appear to be the one always criticising Naim equipment on this forum, that is only because nearly everyone else tends to eulogise Naim equipment all the time,
Call me old fashioned, but I would have thought a Naim forum would largely be populated by Naim fans.
Mike
It is, but soon we'll not be able to mention N**M in the same way we are not allowed to mention A******E. It may cause offence to Non Naim owners. Can I ask all non naim owners what they get out of this forum run by Naim Audio on behalf of Naim ENTHUSIASTS and those genuinely after info and advice on Naim Gear or Naim's musical philosophy.
Yours in Music
Syd
Posted on: 26 May 2003 by Minky
quote:
Originally posted by J. A. Toon:
Minky wrote:
quote:
Is it just me ?
It was more a general commment rather than aimed at anyone in particular.
John,
Sorry, you misinterpreted my question as paranoia. I really meant "is it just me, or do the rest of you see how ridiculous that statement was", and for exactly the reasons that Mike, Syd and Tom just outlined.
Posted on: 26 May 2003 by matthewr
John,
The forum you describe is essentially PFM where they have a cult of not being a cult, are brand free and rarely talk about anything other than actual hi-fi. Have you tried it?
Personally I am entirely disappointed that afer all this time the Naim forum still talks about hi-fi at all. It would be immeasureably improved in my view if we got rid of the hi-fi corner and just went with The Music Room and The Padded Cell
Matthew
Posted on: 26 May 2003 by Tarquin Maynard - Portly
quote:
Originally posted by J. A. Toon:
Also, Mike, I think you would find that the this forum would very quickly become extremely boring indeed, if everyone was a "No. 1" Naim fan as you suggest you would like.
Err...I suggested that? Please remind me where....
quote:
Whilst no doubt you would probably immensely enjoy my departure, a few months down the line, if everyone who wasn't an active member of the cult disappeared, you would probably find that the forum would have died a death.
Pontifex Minimus, I think I can safely say that the Forum would continue if you did not post ( but would read nicer if you cut to the quick on occasion ). You do have something to say, I just feel that you are a victim of what some of us here know as "permanent send"
quote:
What would you all discuss?
Naim?
Mike
Posted on: 26 May 2003 by syd
Sorry John but the High Levels of Impartiality Forum is down the Hall. This is the Naim forum. If you find that people on this forum discussing and recommending Naim equipment boring then so be it. I don't and many here don't. Over the last year and a half I've had some excellent advice and tips and hope I've been able to give back the same related to my own experience. You're in the wrong place old son.
Yours in Music
Syd
